But the issue is what you consider “lightly flamed” may not be what others consider “lightly flamed” to mean.

 

That is why we need Bioware to step in and monitor the situation. Only they know what their rules/TOS mean and can decide when people go to far or what is and isn’t acceptable.

 

Basically, Bioware make the rules and so they should be policing or monitoring them to make sure they are enforced. Otherwise the rules are pointless.

 

This isn’t any different to any of the other rules they have in place. ie, cheating or the character naming policy or other things they list in the rules. Bioware should be making sure they are monitoring these properly or they might as well remove them from the rules to let it become a free for all and have the players decide what’s acceptable and police themselves.

 

Imagine it this way for a minute. We all know about and hate the win trading. People have stopped playing because Bioware didn’t seem to care enough to police it, monitor or apply proper punishments. Many of those people who stopped playing because of it or other cheating will never come back to the game or play ranked again because that’s the perception.

 

Which leads me back to the toxicity discussion. Bioware don’t “seem” to police, monitor or apply proper punishments to people who break the rules that are laid out in the rules of conduct. This is a perception that many people have. So less people are even willing to step into ranked because of it. If they do step in and see it happen just once, it only enforces that belief that ranked is a cesspool of toxicity.

 

If people were confident that Bioware did monitor and enforce the rules, they would be more accepting of what could happen in ranked because they would know there is a line people can’t cross without consequences.

And here’s the important thing, only Bioware know what that line is, so only they can decide. That means they need to monitor and police the situation and if that means some people are censored or censured for breaking the rules, then that’s what needs to happen. Free speech doesn’t even enter into this discussion because there is no such thing once you agree to the terms and conditions.

 

Obviously, some people would still be offended because everyone has a different idea on what is offensive to them. But there would be a known line and they could then choose. At the moment, there is hardly a line at all and Bioware don’t monitor it themselves. They rely on us to tell them and that is the biggest problem with many of their systems. Many people won’t report, they just stop playing instead.

Words and actions are totally different. Bioware should absolutely punish those that break the rules by their actions. They should not be similarly punishing people for their speech, even though their TOS allows them to do so. I've already gone over many of the other reasons I think the principles of free speech are still important here, so I won't repeat myself.

I don't know why so many are so eager for Big Brother to be monitoring and controlling their speech. Frankly, it's disturbing.

Words and actions are totally different. Bioware should absolutely punish those that break the rules by their actions. They should not be similarly punishing people for their speech, even though their TOS allows them to do so. I've already gone over many of the other reasons I think the principles of free speech are still important here, so I won't repeat myself.

 

I don't know why so many are so eager for Big Brother to be monitoring and controlling their speech. Frankly, it's disturbing.

Its not big brother or free speech. You agree to the terms of service when you play the game. Bioware could just as easily put other things into the TOS that seem unreasonable to you or me.

Neither you or I have to agree with what they put in, but we do have to accept them if we agree to play the game. Other wise we can choose not to play.

All we are saying is they have the right to do exactly what people are asking for and your argument for free speech is a non starter.

Its not big brother or free speech. You agree to the terms of service when you play the game. Bioware could just as easily put other things into the TOS that seem unreasonable to you or me.

Neither you or I have to agree with what they put in, but we do have to accept them if we agree to play the game. Other wise we can choose not to play.

All we are saying is they have the right to do exactly what people are asking for and your argument for free speech is a non starter.

Trixxie, I've said it a million times already, I am fully aware of the terms of service. Bioware can do whatever it wants. If they want to ban people for "toxicity" they can do it. But you know what else they can do? They could shut down the game tomorrow. They could ban everyone with the letter T in their name. They could force everyone's race to Chiss. The options are limitless. They can change their TOS at any time too, and we would still be bound by it by continuing to play the game. They have unlimited power.

But none of that says anything about how they should USE that unlimited power. I seem to recall you protesting all kinds of decisions that Bioware makes, constantly. Well, I am doing something similar. I am saying that it is a very bad idea for Bioware to enforce the TOS in such a way that it leads to people being punished merely for what they say in-game. My rationale for why I think it's such a bad idea relies heavily upon the principles of free speech. I know you're not American, so you may not fully appreciate the impact and importance of our First Amendment. Free speech is the one thing that the US still does better than any other country on earth. It would be well worth anyone's time to take a look at what the Founders had to say on the matter (especially Madison and Jefferson).

If they want to ban people for "toxicity" they can do it. But you know what else they can do? They could shut down the game tomorrow. They could ban everyone with the letter T in their name. They could force everyone's race to Chiss. The options are limitless. They can change their TOS at any time too, and we would still be bound by it by continuing to play the game. They have unlimited power.

That’s my point. They can do what ever they want and we’ve essentially got no say. But of course we can complain about it and argue with each other about it

All anyone has asked for is some intervention by Bioware to enforce the rules they’ve “already” set in place for what’s acceptable. No one is asking them to change the TOS, only to enforce the TOS. And the only way they can do that is to monitor what’s going on.

In this day and age of social media tracking and tech companies tracking everything and listening into our lives as well as “real big brother” able to know what ever they want, is it really that bad that Bioware monitor their own game to police and enforce the standards they expect us to follow?

I’m not asking Bioware to inflict my own standards of what is acceptable across the game. Mine would be a lot harsher than yours and many contemporary pvpers. But I would ask that they enforce their own standards and I think 90% of players would be fine with that.

In this day and age of social media tracking and tech companies tracking everything and listening into our lives as well as “real big brother” able to know what ever they want, is it really that bad that Bioware monitor their own game to police and enforce the standards they expect us to follow?

Yes, because merely listening in is one thing; actually punishing people just for their speech is another. I don't trust anyone to be able to responsibly use that power, nor should you. Right now, Bioware only acts in the most extreme cases, and that's as far as they should ever go. Again, this impulse people seem to have where they actually want their speech to be policed...it blows my mind.

I think that's sort of a "self fulfilling prophesy" though. I mean, naturally, the people who think think that "heated words" in ranked are fine are going to continue playing ranked. The ones that don't are going to play a few games, and then "meh, this is totally not worth the abuse". So you naturally end up with people who argue the "toxic load" is fine are the ones that play ranked.

This is, by far the most insightful post in this thread. QFE.

Well said. Anyone else noticing a pattern that nearly all of the people that actually play ranked that have posted in this thread have extremely similar opinions on this matter? Because I have.

Have you noticed that those who dont play it have been trying to tell you why?

There are many very good players that should be playing more ranked in this game, that dont, you need to start asking why that is the case, then go find a mirror and you will have your answer.

But the issue is what you consider “lightly flamed” may not be what others consider “lightly flamed” to mean.

He knows that, and he also knows that were not talking about "light" flaming. GDIAF is pretty clearly not light, and thats on the calmer side.

Should people be able to handle light flaming... on that i would agree, but we all know thats not what were talking about here and hes just herding cats.

lol GDIAF is for shock value, no one means it literally. The proper response is "no u." 60% of the time it works every time

Is this the only game some of you have ever PvP'ed in? Shizz talk has been around since the dawn of pvp. If you say nothing back or say "my bad," then they usually shut up. If you respond with a counterattack or excuse, it usually escalates it.

Have you noticed that those who dont play it have been trying to tell you why?

There are many very good players that should be playing more ranked in this game, that dont, you need to start asking why that is the case, then go find a mirror and you will have your answer.

This level of ignorance is astounding. It's amazing how many times I have to repeat myself.

1. If people can't handle what people say in ranked, they shouldn't be playing ranked.

2. There is very little "toxicity" in ranked in the first place.

3. I'm very, very rarely "toxic" in ranked myself.

4. lol at there are good players that would play if it wasn't toxic. That's a paradoxical statement. Not to mention the fact that virtually no one is toxic towards good players (except a certain decent mara who is vile to everyone).

Is this the only game some of you have ever PvP'ed in? Shizz talk has been around since the the dawn of pvp

Yep. Continually baffles me lol

This level of ignorance is astounding. It's amazing how many times I have to repeat myself.

 

1. If people can't handle what people say in ranked, they shouldn't be playing ranked.

2. There is very little "toxicity" in ranked in the first place.

3. I'm very, very rarely "toxic" in ranked myself.

4. lol at there are good players that would play if it wasn't toxic. That's a paradoxical statement. Not to mention the fact that virtually no one is toxic towards good players (except a certain decent mara who is vile to everyone).

 

 

 

Yep. Continually baffles me lol

Well, that makes two of us. Bottom line you are ok with it, have no intention of changing, and still thinks its everyone elses fault ranked is dead... as you say, the ignorance is astounding.

Oh, and lol @ "very little toxicity"... unless you are an active participant in S&M, this is like saying there is very little water in the ocean.

As I read through this thread, I can't help but to notice the circular motion of all the various conversations and responses. What I've gathered so far after 12 pages:

1) There is smack talking in ranked and some players need a thicker skin.

2) There is rampant toxicity in ranked and it keeps some players from playing ranked.

I think both of these statements are probably true, to a large extent. Some people need to man up and some people need to shut up. That's about the sum of it, right?

I'm not one to condone toxicity and I think most smack talking would be better unsaid in the first place. I mean this is an MMO and (apologies in advance for the generalization) it really is a magnet for people with social issues*, so attacking those people in a negative way or being toxic is only going to hinder overall participation because of those very same social issues.

*no, not every one who plays MMOs has social issues.

**Or maybe they do.

Bottom line you are ok with it, have no intention of changing, and still thinks its everyone elses fault ranked is dead...

What? How am I supposed to change? I'm not toxic in ranked. And solo ranked isn't dead. There's a decent amount of participation. If we want it to grow, we should be encouraging Bioware to make positive changes to the structure o ranked, which many of us have done in other threads.

Oh, and lol @ "very little toxicity"... unless you are an active participant in S&M, this is like saying there is very little water in the ocean.

Do you actually play solo ranked, or just read about it on the forums? I'm guessing the latter. I play solo ranked virtually every day. It's the least "toxic" pvp of any game I've ever played. It's really not a problem.

2) There is rampant toxicity in ranked and it keeps some players from playing ranked.

Let me amend that for you:

"There is occasional toxicity in ranked and it keeps some players from playing ranked"

Rampant implies that it's happening all the time, and that is simply, demonstrably, not true. I wish I could somehow post the chat logs of all of my ranked matches to prove it, but alas that's not possible.

Satele Shan Server

 

 

I do not have a problem with that but I do not appreciate the Toxic Bullying and Abusive Behaviour that is too often displayed in Ranked Warzone. Nuff Said.

Toxic Bullying - seriously? You are playing a PVP based game about space wizards who kill one another over and over. Every PVP game that has ever existed has top tier players who don't care about hurting your feelings - they get off on it actually. If you are venting I hope you feel better *hands player cookie and directions to safe space*. If you are serious maybe PVP isn't for you because what you call bullying exists everywhere in PVP games. Perhaps try a PVP game which doesn't have a chat function.

Toxic Bullying - seriously? You are playing a PVP based game about space wizards who kill one another over and over. Every PVP game that has ever existed has top tier players who don't care about hurting your feelings - they get off on it actually. If you are venting I hope you feel better *hands player cookie and directions to safe space*. If you are serious maybe PVP isn't for you because what you call bullying exists everywhere in PVP games. Perhaps try a PVP game which doesn't have a chat function.

you realize SWTOR and SW in general is a ridiculously casual, story mode-ish, gentle game. everything about it is watered down with kiddy gloves and cupcakes. it's not at all surprising that they would censor or be more big brother about pvp than in other games. even the players who are genuinely top tier can't seriously thing they're anything but the big fish in a puddle (not even a pond) of the greater pvp world.

not sure how one could compare "competitive" pvp in swtor to that of wow or counterstrike or league or...anything at all.

you realize SWTOR and SW in general is a ridiculously casual, story mode-ish, gentle game. everything about it is watered down with kiddy gloves and cupcakes. it's not at all surprising that they would censor or be more big brother about pvp than in other games. even the players who are genuinely top tier can't seriously thing they're anything but the big fish in a puddle (not even a pond) of the greater pvp world.

 

not sure how one could compare "competitive" pvp in swtor to that of wow or counterstrike or league or...anything at all.

I agree. But solo ranked is the one part of swtor that is for more than just casuals. You are also right that its pvp is not nearly on the level of non-mmo pvp in terms of skill required and popularity (comparing it to wow seems fair though, that's just a population difference really). It's also significantly less "toxic" than those other games.

@alex

I do get where you are coming from. I just see it as a problem because it causes less people to play ranked and we already have threads saying ranked isn’t balanced and ELO is broken.

Guess what the responses to those threads are by people? “There aren’t enough people playing ranked”. That’s why those problems exist.

The way ranked is perceived is only declining faster because those like yourself who see nothing wrong with the toxicity or don’t care if people don’t play, are now becoming the majority of players willing to keep playing. When more and more people leave because the toxicity becomes more concentrated, you will end up playing with fewer people.

I don’t understand how you can’t see this is detrimental to ranked and pvp in general. Don’t you want the game to succeed or pvp be playable?

I agree. But solo ranked is the one part of swtor that is for more than just casuals.

LMAO Are you serious?

Group ranked is maybe for more than just casuals - but solo ranked? Are you nuts?

Solo is the same as regs just in an Arena environment...

I still cannot get it why people defend the current pvp System at all... you guys are minimalists and i feel bad for you....

I don’t understand how you can’t see this is detrimental to ranked and pvp in general. Don’t you want the game to succeed or pvp be playable?

Well, a few things. First, just because ranked has a perceived "toxicity" problem, doesn't mean that that problem is real. Toxicity is not a problem in solo ranked in my experience. Second, I've consistently disputed whether ranked's perceived "toxicity" really is driving huge numbers of people away from it. It clearly has driven some people away, but I doubt it's very many overall.

Also, I'd rather ranked die than encourage Bioware to punish people for their speech. That's how important free expression is to me. You clearly disagree, but that's my position.

I still cannot get it why people defend the current pvp System at all... you guys are minimalists and i feel bad for you....

I don't know what that means.

 

I don't know what that means.

It means that you are satisfied with less than you deserve in case of PvP.

- no Proper elo System

- no x-server

- just Arena ranked no other competetive modes (e.g. 8v8 solo and grp queue)

- game needs proper balancing (not just once in 2 years)

- no real punishment for traders and hackers

List goes on....

Sorry but everyone who thinks pvp is fine how it is... is either a Trader or completely retarded.

it means that you are satisfied with less than you deserve in case of pvp.

 

- no proper elo system

- no x-server

- just arena ranked no other competetive modes (e.g. 8v8 solo and grp queue)

- game needs proper balancing (not just once in 2 years)

- no real punishment for traders and hackers

 

list goes on....

 

Sorry but everyone who thinks pvp is fine how it is... Is either a trader or completely retarded.

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