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Proof that Gunnery is fully viable with a rifle


wishihadaname

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I've caught flack before for not liking cannons and instead opting to use a rifle. I've decided to put this to a rigorous test by doing a 3 minute parsed run with identical rotations but different weapons. The gear, mods, spec, and target dummy were the exact same in both runs except that in round 1 I had the mods in a rifle, and in round 2 I had them in a cannon. Here is the breakdown of major differences.

 

When using a rifle I had:

-1% weaker full auto average hit

-11% weaker full auto max crit (not sure on that one, could have gotten a higher one theoretically with a rifle, just didn't show up in the parse).

-0.06% STRONGER grav round (due to numerical discrepancy probably).

-14% weaker HiB max crit

-10% weaker HiB average (these two are significant, I will yield that).

-3% lower DPS overall.

-*demo round stats not included since it didn't crit during the rifle run. The 10% crit during the cannon run skewed its average.

 

Here is the link so you can verify these.

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/7766e41f-4969-4ee1-8218-47a2f989be9a/overview#d=0,t=1,b=1

 

Overall, it really isn't that big of a deal, in PVE the burst of individual skills matters far less than the overall dps. And a loss of 3% could just as easily be due to the fact that I had an ammo hickup during my rifle run as due to the fact that cannons are supposedly better. In PVP I will concede that the loss of maximum burst is problematic, however, I can tell you that based off of personal experience, I feel as though I get targeted far less frequently while using a rifle. In the heat of a fight most people aren't going to be checking every enemies ammo cell or looking for the little class symbols.

 

Overall: Its perfectly viable to use a rifle for both PVP and PVE if you are willing to accept a ~3% damage nerf.

 

Note: This was on PTS using the provided arkanian gear.

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Overall: Its perfectly viable to use a rifle for both PVP and PVE if you are willing to accept a ~3% damage nerf.

 

Note: This was on PTS using the provided arkanian gear.

 

Not willing to do that. If you're willing to do that you're a bad. By your logic also perfectly viable to play without relics completely (3% of 2k DPS is 60 DPS).

 

If you're that against auto cannons why in God's name didn't you just roll a vanguard?

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And if the situation arises where you need to use Hail of Bolts?

 

Not knocking you for disliking the autocannons, but why limit yourself from using all of your abilities?

 

Simply put, viable yes, optimized, no.

 

Well I lose 2 abilities, charged bolts which is a weaker version of grav round anyways, and hail of bolts, which is expensive and doesn't do anything that you can't do with the new triple fired explosive rounds for cheaper and while moving.

 

Not willing to do that. If you're willing to do that you're a bad. By your logic also perfectly viable to play without relics completely (3% of 2k DPS is 60 DPS).

 

If you're that against auto cannons why in God's name didn't you just roll a vanguard?

 

I play a commando because I like the playstyle, just not the weapon. The vanguard makes no sense to me because a guy with a rifle and no force powers or way to defend against lightsabers should be shooting people, not hitting them with the butt of his rifle while getting chopped in the face. I also like the commandos ability to self heal and not be reliant on the healer as much.

 

As for the 3% damage loss, as long as you pass the enrage timer who cares? If I were doing nightmare mode ops where every ounce of dps was needed then i'de take a cannon, and i've actually got one stored away for that. For everything else though, enough is enough and more then enough doesn't make much of a difference.

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So you did a 194 second parse and a 7 minute parse and cherry picked results in order to minimize the blaster rifle's deficiency. Your results are completely invalid.

 

I agree that player skill will affect DPS output more than gear, and Commando + Blaster Rifle is certainly viable. But is Commando + Blaster Rifle a gimped spec? Yes. Are you hurting your ops group by playing this spec? Yes.

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The question is "why would you take any kind of nerf?"

Even if the 3%, if it is indeed 3%, nerf isn't much, why? If you're raiding there is no reason, none at all, to go for lower dps when you can have higher. It's not as if we have dps to spare when compared to other classes.

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of course it's viable. it's just clearly not optimal at all.

 

saying something is viable doesn't mean much. it's 'viable' to go without set bonuses, without using all of your skill points, with a commando barrel instead of reflex, but no one's going to do that if they can avoid it.

 

i don't really understand the point of this thread.

Edited by oaceen
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So you did a 194 second parse and a 7 minute parse and cherry picked results in order to minimize the blaster rifle's deficiency. Your results are completely invalid.

 

Actually, if you used the tabs and looked at the numbers, it was a 194 second and a 200 second fight. You probably looked at the overall combination and then one individual fight.

 

As for the point of this thread, games are meant to be played and enjoyed. I do not enjoy using cannons because I think they looks ridiculous. If relics made my character fart bubbles whenever they procced I wouldn't use them either. The point of the thread is that in this case, I can both enjoy my own play style and be just as effective as any other DPS. As for the 3% damage difference, thats just between these two runs. Repeated enough time I could probably get runs where my dps was 3% higher with a rifle simply due to RNG because the overall difference in abilities is so small. Long story short, using a rifle does not impact dps in any statistically significant* way.

 

Mainly I put this thread up so that I could save a URL and then copy paste it to chat every time someone started complaining to me or calling me a bad for using a rifle. For those that haven't seen, I also have a pvp vid on this forum in which I am using a rifle, see for yourself how well that works.

 

*For those of you who haven't taken stats, if an experimental result varies at 5% or less between the control (aka normal or in this case cannon wielding) and the treatment group (same rotation/gear/target but using a rifle), then it is not considered to be a valid difference because there is a high probability that the discrepancy is based on random chance alone.

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As for the point of this thread, games are meant to be played and enjoyed. I do not enjoy using cannons because I think they looks ridiculous.

 

then don't use cannons. you don't need to make a thread to validate your choice to others.

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then don't use cannons. you don't need to make a thread to validate your choice to others.

 

Try telling that to the "pros". The whole 3% less damage is gonna drive them ******* insane when they realize you're using a rifle instead of an auto cannon. Besides I've yet to play an operation and I doubt I'd be let in one if I would be using a rifle just because of that whole 3% less damage and them all going "omg uninstall noob" "dont know how to play class" etc., etc.

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3% is a lot when you're trying to beat an enrage timer on a Boss with ~2 million hps. (60K)

 

Now, just imagine that you have another commando rolling with a rifle, that's 120K right there total, or how about a sentinel that only uses one saber, or a dps shadow using a single bladed saber.

 

If you want to play that way, go right ahead, no one is stopping you.

 

However, if you keep running into an enrage timer then it is the DPS's fault and, more importantly, it is your fault for wanting to play in a fashion when your dps is diminished.

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Actually, if you used the tabs and looked at the numbers, it was a 194 second and a 200 second fight. You probably looked at the overall combination and then one individual fight.

 

As for the point of this thread, games are meant to be played and enjoyed. I do not enjoy using cannons because I think they looks ridiculous. If relics made my character fart bubbles whenever they procced I wouldn't use them either. The point of the thread is that in this case, I can both enjoy my own play style and be just as effective as any other DPS. As for the 3% damage difference, thats just between these two runs. Repeated enough time I could probably get runs where my dps was 3% higher with a rifle simply due to RNG because the overall difference in abilities is so small. Long story short, using a rifle does not impact dps in any statistically significant* way.

 

Mainly I put this thread up so that I could save a URL and then copy paste it to chat every time someone started complaining to me or calling me a bad for using a rifle. For those that haven't seen, I also have a pvp vid on this forum in which I am using a rifle, see for yourself how well that works.

 

*For those of you who haven't taken stats, if an experimental result varies at 5% or less between the control (aka normal or in this case cannon wielding) and the treatment group (same rotation/gear/target but using a rifle), then it is not considered to be a valid difference because there is a high probability that the discrepancy is based on random chance alone.

 

First off, using a rifle is a playstyle now?

 

Second the bolded part is just flatly untrue. You'd be more effective if another DPS was exactly like you but instead was using an Autocannon. Your HiBs are significantly weaker.

 

Listen you can say pretty much whatever you want with statistics but the point is you're still a bad.

 

PVEing solo? Use whatever you want.

Story Mode operations? Use whatever you want as long as it's better than recruit gear

Progression Raiding? Do whatever you can (within reason) to maximize DPS, and if you aren't doing that then you're a selfish douche who doesn't deserve a raid spot. Asking a commando to use an autocannon isn't ridiculous.

 

If you want to play a ranged turret with a rifle then reroll a sniper.

 

In the meantime, obviously you can do whatever you want. My point isn't to convince you. You're going to do what you want and nothing I can say will convince you. I'm just hoping if someone else sees this thread they'll realize using a rifle on commando DPS is the epitomy of silly.

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Try telling that to the "pros". The whole 3% less damage is gonna drive them ******* insane when they realize you're using a rifle instead of an auto cannon. Besides I've yet to play an operation and I doubt I'd be let in one if I would be using a rifle just because of that whole 3% less damage and them all going "omg uninstall noob" "dont know how to play class" etc., etc.

 

honestly, i don't care how anyone wants to play the game. they bought the game, they can play it how they want.

 

for HM FPs, dailies, non-end game raids (EV, KP, SM TFB/EC), solo leveling. i don't care. those are so easy to faceroll that it wouldn't matter if a commando used a rifle. i'll even run regular HM FPs with a dps specced commando who queued as a healer. i've gone with companions before when someone DC'd.

 

 

that said, it is not unreasonable for a raid leader to reject a commando who insisted on using a rifle. all the other dps in the group have to make up that extra dps to carry them through it. that's not really fair to put people into that position just because 'assault cannons are lame' or whatever.

and first of all, 3% is a lot of dps to intentionally lose, especially for a cosmetic option.

and second, i don't believe that the testing in this thread is very reliable, so we can't really say with any certainty what the discrepancy really is.

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If it keeps me from being primary as much because they don't see the cannon, it helps my team. I'm going to have to try this tonight. Sick of everyone jumping right past the rest of my team and melting my face in 5 seconds.(PUG obviously, since i'm only lvl 23) Edited by Cognar
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Running without an Assault Cannon is not viable for PvP, no mater how you try to spin it. Besides the obvious damage loss, Hail of Bolts is the only way for a Commando to instantly interrupt a cap out of line of sight. Mortar Volley, your only other AoE has a long cooldown and also has a delay before dealing its damage meaning that you will lose games for your team. Edited by Jenzali
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I still don't see the big deal behind that 3% less damage, especially in PvP. I could understand that in hard flashpoints or stuff like that but in PvP where fights don't take as much time the difference is pretty much nonexistant.

 

Also correct me if I'm wrong but don't rifles have a higher min damage meaning you can dish out more reliable damage instead of potentially higher damage which has a chance to be as bad as a rifle?

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Also correct me if I'm wrong but don't rifles have a higher min damage meaning you can dish out more reliable damage instead of potentially higher damage which has a chance to be as bad as a rifle?

No, they don't. The difference between minimum damage with a rifle and with a cannon is much narrower than the difference between the maximum damage, but rifles still do less.

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I've caught flack before for not liking cannons and instead opting to use a rifle. I've decided to put this to a rigorous test by doing a 3 minute parsed run with identical rotations but different weapons. The gear, mods, spec, and target dummy were the exact same in both runs except that in round 1 I had the mods in a rifle, and in round 2 I had them in a cannon. Here is the breakdown of major differences.

 

When using a rifle I had:

-1% weaker full auto average hit

-11% weaker full auto max crit (not sure on that one, could have gotten a higher one theoretically with a rifle, just didn't show up in the parse).

-0.06% STRONGER grav round (due to numerical discrepancy probably).

-14% weaker HiB max crit

-10% weaker HiB average (these two are significant, I will yield that).

-3% lower DPS overall.

-*demo round stats not included since it didn't crit during the rifle run. The 10% crit during the cannon run skewed its average.

 

Here is the link so you can verify these.

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/7766e41f-4969-4ee1-8218-47a2f989be9a/overview#d=0,t=1,b=1

 

Overall, it really isn't that big of a deal, in PVE the burst of individual skills matters far less than the overall dps. And a loss of 3% could just as easily be due to the fact that I had an ammo hickup during my rifle run as due to the fact that cannons are supposedly better. In PVP I will concede that the loss of maximum burst is problematic, however, I can tell you that based off of personal experience, I feel as though I get targeted far less frequently while using a rifle. In the heat of a fight most people aren't going to be checking every enemies ammo cell or looking for the little class symbols.

 

Overall: Its perfectly viable to use a rifle for both PVP and PVE if you are willing to accept a ~3% damage nerf.

 

Note: This was on PTS using the provided arkanian gear.

 

Any raid/ops member that would willingly sacrifice 3% overall dps because of the cosmetics of their weapon has never raided at any kind of competitive level. If you told me I would see a 3% increase in DPS simply by using a different weapon I would use it even if it was a stick.

 

3% of 2000 dps is 60. 60 DPS over a 5 minute fight is 18,000 damage. If your whole ops group was this ignorant you would be sacrificing 180,000 damage for no damn reason.

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I've caught flack before for not liking cannons and instead opting to use a rifle. I've decided to put this to a rigorous test by doing a 3 minute parsed run with identical rotations but different weapons.

 

*snip

 

 

No, it's not identical, in one parse you have 7 hammer shots, in another 0. When 1 parse has your lowest hitting skill being used 9% of the time and the other doesn't have it at all and your final number of attacks is roughly equal, it completely invalidates your data. There are other discrepancies with number of times each skill is used as well. On top of it, you parsed a 3 minute fight, most bosses in Progression Ops are 6 minutes give or take, you should do 6 minute parses. You should also do a burst, 1-1.5 minute parse, because alot of bosses fights in EC HM and TFB HM require burst since they have phases that make you go off the boss, and shorter windows to DPS in. Firebrand and Stormcaller, Kephess, Writhing Horror, Operator IX are examples of this. When you do these parses, try to keep the number of attacks with each ability approximately the same, within 1-2% differential. Otherwise, statistically your data means nothing.

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  • 1 month later...
Any raid/ops member that would willingly sacrifice 3% overall dps because of the cosmetics of their weapon has never raided at any kind of competitive level. If you told me I would see a 3% increase in DPS simply by using a different weapon I would use it even if it was a stick.

 

3% of 2000 dps is 60. 60 DPS over a 5 minute fight is 18,000 damage. If your whole ops group was this ignorant you would be sacrificing 180,000 damage for no damn reason.

 

Since when is raiding competitive. .....hey ooooo

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If want to use a rifle than use it. You will not get approval from anyone else though except like-minded players like yourself. Like everyone has said: There is no way around it, cannons will put out more than rifles no matter what. You can't argue that you can do better with a rifle in any scenario on a Commando or else all Commandos would carry a rifle.

 

What I'm saying is, just do what you want. You don't have to answer to us or justify yourself. The option is there, make a choice.

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