BobertCole: Could you elaborate please on what role you see deception Assassins playing? Are they close to operating in the way that was envisioned?

 

Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer): First, as to whether or not they're operating close to what we envision, the answer is "depends who the operator is." From the videos, logs, and anecdotes players provide us, it's really very much the answer for all specs - some people "get it" and play it to its potential, and some people don't. Frequently, the ones who "don't" are hitting brick walls because their expectations for what a spec should be like or should be capable of are different than what the spec is designed for.

 

In the case of Deception Assassins, we see and hear about a lot of players expecting to go toe-to-toe with tough enemies. They expect that since they're a melee spec, they should have the survivability they need to withstand the frontlines. That's true for some melee specs, but that's not what Deception Assassins were designed for. Deception should epitomize "hit-and-run" and "lone wolf" gameplay. Obviously that's less the case in Operations boss encounters, but if this is a question of sustained DPS, the short answer is that they hit within the same 5% "grace window" targeted by every DPS spec in the game.

 

In solo and PvP environments, Deception is meant to be a high burst, high mobility, shutdown spec. When played properly, they provide some of the highest burst and highest pressure in the game. However, Deception is not a great partner. He can't take hits, his shutdown requires that he set the pace of the fight, and his escapes leave allies open and vulnerable to counterattacks. I say that, but I've seen players dash my expectations and turn Deception into a spectacular teammate. Unfortunately, I've seen many more players try to facetank and fail. Assassins have a great team support role - Darkness; they also have a great well-rounded, high utility role - Madness. We left Deception to take the opportunity to do something fun and very different, but that comes with the risk of missing player expectation. If you like Deception and you want to pull it off, my suggestion is that you pick your fights and plan ahead, but I'd also warn that Deception is a spec of extremes - I would not describe it as "well-rounded."

.

 

Dear Mr. Peckenpaugh,

 

I wanted to apologize on behalf of all the Deception Assassins who "dashed your expectations" by somehow managing to contribute to their team's success despite your design direction for this spec. You state that you intentionally designed Deception spec to be "not a great partner", or translated from PR speak: a BAD team player. Unfortunately, all our current PvP content is "Team-Based" Warzones. So, you're essentially saying that you intend for Deception spec to be "bad" at end-game PvP (rated Warzones), and that if we don't like it then there are other more viable Team/Utility specs (darkness/madness) for us to choose from. Don't worry, most of us already figured that out. Check your "logs and metrics" for % of active player assassins who are specced primarily Deception compared to Darkness or Madness (or Both). I’m sure you’ll find that most players have migrated to specs that give them greater opportunity to contribute to their team’s success in Team Objective based Warzones.

 

And that is just the PvP portion of the game, In PvE we have the choice to spec Tank (darkness) or DPS (madness/deception), however it has been statistically proven with parsed combat logs on multiple Ops boss encounters that Madness spec provides better sustained DPS given equal gearing and player skill. So again, why would you choose Deception spec when there is a superior alternative available in PvE? Also, if Deception spec is within 5% of your “DPS Target” (I’ll assume -5%), I don’t want to know what the Marauders are drinking because there’s over a 10% delta sustained DPS between these ACs.

 

I’m not here to whine, nor do I think that my preferred spec is unsalvageable, but hearing “it’s fine L2P” from the Senior Designer is NOT acceptable when enough people are repeatedly asking this question for it to be part of the weekly Q&A. Deception Sins are not looking for a push to the OP FOTM club, we are simply asking to have equal viability in PvE and PvP when compared to the other trees in our AC. Perhaps we could talk about reasonable solutions to the main issue that you mentioned of “being a poor partner”, and rather than change our gameplay style or DPS level we could get a tool we’re missing: group utility.

 

There is currently no reason to bring a Deception Sin over a Sniper or Marauder who have the same or better straight DPS plus group utility (armor pen, trauma debuff, bloodthirst, etc.) Something as simple as modifying Surging charge to place an armor penetration debuff on our target instead of giving this talented buff (via charge mastery) only to ourselves would begin to resolve issues in both PvE and PvP. We would have a group contribution that would benefit the WZ team focusing a target or Ops group fighting a boss, bringing us in line with other DPS with similar group utility benefits like Snipers and Marauders.

 

Also, being a “hit and run” design without the ability to “run” very often seems odd. Why is the talent for reduced CD on force speed and break rooting effects in the Tank tree again? Why is the CD for our “bail/vanish” ability roughly 3x as long as a Marauders? Perhaps if leaving combat during a WZ in order to access our stealth wasn’t harder than downing HM Kephess we would already have the tools we needed. Perhaps giving Deception Sins a 10 min CD that resets our other CDs (think Prep) would give us the tools we need to work this “hit and run” vision without allowing us the OP ability to bring those tools to every encounter.

 

That’s a few ideas right there from a guy who doesn’t get paid to think of this stuff. I’m sure the Assassin/Shadow community and your junior designers can do even better if they try. But, they DO need to try. Deception is very much in the same place that Carnage spec was before it was addressed, when it was clearly inferior to Annihilation, and it was buffed and brought in line and is now a viable choice, although the 2 Mara specs remain unique and have individual strengths and weaknesses. All we are asking for is a logical reason to play Deception spec. If you can do 85% of the DPS, have double the survivability, and gain team utility (ranged IC AOE, guard, pull, IC CC) by speccing Darkness/Madness hybrid why would you choose Deception? If you can DPS Ops bosses more efficiently as pure Madness spec why would you choose Deception?

 

You wouldn’t, which is why I am no longer providing your team with the “metrics and logs” that demonstrate that the spec is fine. Is it because I like Darkness or Madness better? No. It’s because they flat out ARE better for both end-game PvE and PvP, and until Deception becomes a viable choice, your pool of Deception player's data is going to continue to dwindle.

 

Former Deception Assassin

Edited July 14, 2012 by IronmanSS

You just posted what i was goin to post and i agree with all u put in it. O ya i want to see the videos of a good deception assassin in an ops since they said ther are ppl who play it good from what they seen in videos. But ill say it again fix deceptions dps so ppl will want to play it cuz i hate and i mean i hate madness spec.

When I initially leveled my assassin, I used the Deception tree. It was tough, I'd have low health at the end of every fight, and it wasn't until after I hit 50 that I changed spec to darkness and started gearing my character in all things tanky.

 

Now I didn't switch over because the Deception tree sucked, it was merely because my own play style did not fit that of what the deception tree had intended. I now love tanking (though the nerf is another matter).

 

What's funny though, is the fact that even though deception is supposed to be hit and run, that even though in PvE, when you use a move like 'blackout' this resets the mobs you are fighting which pretty much negates any use of 'hit and run'.

I simply cannot believe that a Senior Designer just told us that one of the specs in game is PURPOSELY supposed to be completely useless (because yes, mister Austin Peckenpaugh, "lone wolf" gameplay is of no need for any player who actually wants to play a TEAM BASED GAME).

 

I'm baffled, this is beyond a joke.

Yeah, he basically admitted the spec is gimped., without directly stating it.

 

Rather sad.

We shadows are saying the same thing on our side. I am totally blown away by this post today. I am losing faith in bioware to handle an MMO. I gave them another chance once they finally got ranked WZs out but hearing this. I am really starting to doubt.

This spec just sucks, it's sucked way back since pre 1.1

 

Switched madness a long time ago and after a few 800+k WZ's never looked back. I am guessing Deception has value in PvE but in PvP it's always been crap. Anyone that still uses it must be a sadist.

Reading comprehension /facepalm

I don't understand where he gets this idea that Deception Assassins have fantastic burst damage. Assassins in general do not have good burst damage, not until it's been built up for awhile.

 

And that's the problem. For a melee class of the design he hinted was the intent, you need to be able to get a good off-the-bat burst when you get the drop on somebody. Even operatives can do this.

 

Best idea would probably be to give deception assassins another 2 min cooldown to use to augment burst damage significantly for 12 seconds or so.

I struggled with Deception since level 40, and since that time ive been darkness occasionally trying my hand back at deception and Madness.

 

I don't think I need to share my thoughts here, everyone feels the same way. Im stuck at Darkness Tank in PVE and PVP. And even then as a Full Campaign Tank the healers dont like me tanking because its next to impossible during frenzy's and burst aspects in various boss fights. They want Juggernauts with their cooldowns for tanking.

The Last hit to Assasssins was too much for the healers.

 

I now only log on My assassin for when im needed in Operations or do the daily 5 BH commendations for dps gear.

I find myself now levelling a Juggernaut tank. Who have the best Tanking cooldowns, sustainable damage mitigation and a valid DPS spec for PVP Team play.

 

But What does Austen Say? "Learn to Play"

Edited July 14, 2012 by TheRedNalroni

Dear Mr. Peckenpaugh,

 

I wanted to apologize on behalf of all the Deception Assassins who "dashed your expectations" by somehow managing to contribute to their team's success despite your design direction for this spec. You state that you intentionally designed Deception spec to be "not a great partner", or translated from PR speak: a BAD team player. Unfortunately, all our current PvP content is "Team-Based" Warzones. So, you're essentially saying that you intend for Deception spec to be "bad" at end-game PvP (rated Warzones), and that if we don't like it then there are other more viable Team/Utility specs (darkness/madness) for us to choose from. Don't worry, most of us already figured that out. Check your "logs and metrics" for % of active player assassins who are specced primarily Deception compared to Darkness or Madness (or Both). I’m sure you’ll find that most players have migrated to specs that give them greater opportunity to contribute to their team’s success in Team Objective based Warzones.

 

And that is just the PvP portion of the game, In PvE we have the choice to spec Tank (darkness) or DPS (madness/deception), however it has been statistically proven with parsed combat logs on multiple Ops boss encounters that Madness spec provides better sustained DPS given equal gearing and player skill. So again, why would you choose Deception spec when there is a superior alternative available in PvE? Also, if Deception spec is within 5% of your “DPS Target” (I’ll assume -5%), I don’t want to know what the Marauders are drinking because there’s over a 10% delta sustained DPS between these ACs.

 

I’m not here to whine, nor do I think that my preferred spec is unsalvageable, but hearing “it’s fine L2P” from the Senior Designer is NOT acceptable when enough people are repeatedly asking this question for it to be part of the weekly Q&A. Deception Sins are not looking for a push to the OP FOTM club, we are simply asking to have equal viability in PvE and PvP when compared to the other trees in our AC. Perhaps we could talk about reasonable solutions to the main issue that you mentioned of “being a poor partner”, and rather than change our gameplay style or DPS level we could get a tool we’re missing: group utility.

 

There is currently no reason to bring a Deception Sin over a Sniper or Marauder who have the same or better straight DPS plus group utility (armor pen, trauma debuff, bloodthirst, etc.) Something as simple as modifying Surging charge to place an armor penetration debuff on our target instead of giving this talented buff (via charge mastery) only to ourselves would begin to resolve issues in both PvE and PvP. We would have a group contribution that would benefit the WZ team focusing a target or Ops group fighting a boss, bringing us in line with other DPS with similar group utility benefits like Snipers and Marauders.

 

Also, being a “hit and run” design without the ability to “run” very often seems odd. Why is the talent for reduced CD on force speed and break rooting effects in the Tank tree again? Why is the CD for our “bail/vanish” ability roughly 3x as long as a Marauders? Perhaps if leaving combat during a WZ in order to access our stealth wasn’t harder than downing HM Kephess we would already have the tools we needed. Perhaps giving Deception Sins a 10 min CD that resets our other CDs (think Prep) would give us the tools we need to work this “hit and run” vision without allowing us the OP ability to bring those tools to every encounter.

 

That’s a few ideas right there from a guy who doesn’t get paid to think of this stuff. I’m sure the Assassin/Shadow community and your junior designers can do even better if they try. But, they DO need to try. Deception is very much in the same place that Carnage spec was before it was addressed, when it was clearly inferior to Annihilation, and it was buffed and brought in line and is now a viable choice, although the 2 Mara specs remain unique and have individual strengths and weaknesses. All we are asking for is a logical reason to play Deception spec. If you can do 85% of the DPS, have double the survivability, and gain team utility (ranged IC AOE, guard, pull, IC CC) by speccing Darkness/Madness hybrid why would you choose Deception? If you can DPS Ops bosses more efficiently as pure Madness spec why would you choose Deception?

 

You wouldn’t, which is why I am no longer providing your team with the “metrics and logs” that demonstrate that the spec is fine. Is it because I like Darkness or Madness better? No. It’s because they flat our ARE better for both end-game PvE and PvP, and until Deception becomes a viable choice, your pool of Deception player's data is going to continue to dwindle.

 

Former Deception Assassin

 

Well said

I also had the Q&A response copied, ready to paste in to a thread of my own about this exact thing... It is simply mind blowing how detached the developers seems to be to the pvp community, I do not understand how they can let this happen.

First of all, what matters in pvp is the time it takes for one class to kill another, respectively how long it can survive. Damage number doesn't mean anything in comparison, you can keep wailing at a healed target for two minutes, and end up at the top of the leader boards, and still be less helpful that someone who does a tenth of the damage, but kill the same target in 15 sec.

While deception assassins certainly have quite a few tools to interrupt healers and casters from completing channeled skills, they do not have the tools to compete with any class with instant cast abilities. To make matters even worse, they got lower damage then marauders, light armor, and defensive cooldowns that looks like a joke next to the godlike cd's marauders have.

 

The worst thing is that while assassins, according to his post, are supposed to be a "hit and run" class, they actually have WORSE abilities to "get a way" after a fight, their force cloak is on a mind numbing 2 min cooldown WHEN SPEC'ED IN TO compared to the "off the bat" 45 sec cd of marauders, and theirs don't break on damage!

 

Simply wow...

 

p.s, his quote about a melee class that is not supposed to "face tank", is insane on the face of it... what are they supposed to do then? stealth up to a healer, try to kill him asap, then go back in to stealth, and wait for the 2 min cd to end before attacking again? yea that will work...

Edited July 14, 2012 by Talsyrius

From the videos, logs, and anecdotes players provide us

This reads like a great way to get to know how the PvP game is going...

I was hoping that deception sins would get a buff so I can go back to playing my beloved class...

 

But I guess after this Im not sad I re rolled marauder....

 

Because I Do not like darkness...if I wanted to be a Tank i'd be a jugg or a PT

 

I chose assassin because I wanted to assassinate people lol

 

time to officially put him on the bench, unless they bring out arenas...in which case I think sins will do a little better

Dev team is really starting to annoy me, deception assassin is not fine anyway you slice it, if you want a hit and runner in pvp, take an Operative as they are better at burst by a fair margin. Want a dps assassin in an Operation, well you are going to take a madness assassin because deception can't sustain it's dps close to that of madness. Simply put the spec is subpar on both PVP and PVE and this is not good enough.

 

I have Officially given up on deception at this point and won't be going back to it till i see improvements to the spec.

For those who feel like I do that this spec needs some help, the time is now. Join me on the thread for next weeks Q&A and post there and make our suffering heard. Don't sit in silence and suffer.

I never leveled a Assassin/Shadow but will after my next alt. Not the point though. When I PvP with my Pyrotech Mercenary and a shadow tries to sneak me, I literary burn them to the ground within seconds. Their squishy, their not invisible to my stealth scan ability, and their not immune to my stuns. I can't see this class going for the healer, too much aggro on him/her. I can't even bare seeing one going to a tank. I can see him soloing a marauder/sentinel. I can't really see him/her player a high burst DPS kiter like a Vanguard/Powertech. I want to play this class because it is difficult, and I like difficult. But Bioware... You don't have to do this to your fans. The last things I'm playing this game for is Star Wars, KOTOR series, and I don't want all the money you spent on this game to go to the melting pot. Like the original thread said, you can't just tell us to L2P. Most fans don't appreiciate. Is that suppose to make them feel like they're bad? I'd like you to clear this up, and start pumping out uptates with STAR WARS gear, NOT this new tier gear because when I get Rakata and BM it takes away from the fact I want the "new coolest gear", not the "newest swamp monster costume" Gah! BW! I'm not quiting your game anytime soon, but please listen to your community and make Soon into Now Edited July 14, 2012 by Vespassian

For those who feel like I do that this spec needs some help, the time is now. Join me on the thread for next weeks Q&A and post there and make our suffering heard. Don't sit in silence and suffer.

 

^ What he said.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Vespassian

Well, devs need to take a long hard look at their logs at how many assassin/shadows are actually deception/infiltration- probably less than 2%. I haven't seen one in months.

 

Personally, I don't like the spec.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Sookster

I simply cannot believe that a Senior Designer just told us that one of the specs in game is PURPOSELY supposed to be completely useless (because yes, mister Austin Peckenpaugh, "lone wolf" gameplay is of no need for any player who actually wants to play a TEAM BASED GAME).

 

I'm baffled, this is beyond a joke.

 

Yes, a lot of design resources devoted to making one tree out of several simply not as effective. Illusion of choice I guess. "Hey look players, you can choose among 3 trees, but we really want to force you to choose among 2 so we don't have to work so hard. Thanks!"

 

Other classes have the same problem as well.

Deception sucks bawls and this senior designer has not a clue.

 

To be honest I don't even like having sins around period, no matter what their spec is. They are a waste of group/raid/guild spots.

Deception sucks bawls and this senior designer has not a clue.

 

To be honest I don't even like having sins around period, no matter what their spec is. They are a waste of group/raid/guild spots.

 

Oh you one of those that wants 5-6 jugg/maras and the rest operative healers? That's pretty much the common premade now.

What I love is its the Iconic specs for the 3 worst off classes that suck the worst.

 

Shadow/Sin- when you play one at least me and my friends we thought stealth guy. You know assassin that involves killing people generally. What are we forced to play to be viable???? tank. hmmm

 

Commando (and my buddy is really pissed about this) HUGE CANNON PEW PEW lazor beamz blow people up. NOPE HEALZ FOR U.

 

Smuggler/OP. Shotgun to the back and blasters ohh yea. Some dirty fighting. Wait.....no combat medic.

 

What kills me is the Sentinel/Mara are apparently teachers pet. 3 specs very viable in WZ play. at least 2 for PVE play. And they have been buffed and buffed and buffed since end of beta. Every patch. Do they have an itch???? ohh dear jesus lets scratch it.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Baharoth

Im totally for rallying the assassin community to spam next weeks faq with this next question.

 

According to bioware (deception) assassins are meant to be non team players and lone wolves in pvp, what then do you plan on doing then to make them more viable in objective/ group pvp. With no other outlet for pvp biowarehas admitted to effectively pigeon holeing us into a certain spec.

 

I thought all classes specs were supposed to be viable in one way or another. Ask bioware if there metrics deny power tech and marauder heavy rated teams

Personally, I like playing as a deception assassin in pvp.