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The reason Sorcerers/Sages are OP in PvP

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
The reason Sorcerers/Sages are OP in PvP

Naethion's Avatar


Naethion
02.12.2012 , 01:27 PM | #501
Quote: Originally Posted by Varicite View Post
Taking away CC from the class w/ the lowest burst damage and lowest defenses in the game without giving anything in compensation is asking for a nerf.

Would you rather they raised Sorc burst damage and buffed the shield to compensate for having fewer escapes?
Well, there aren't many options. There needs to be balance between damage and control. You cannot have both. And when I mean damage, I mean both Sustained and burst. If you have both damage and control, you have frost mages. So BW needs to figure out something.
Old newbie on a return pad to his game

Tumri's Avatar


Tumri
02.12.2012 , 01:28 PM | #502
Quote: Originally Posted by Nazutron View Post
Tumri

I encourage you to read my post again. U wrote players are gimping them self by specing 31 points in a talent tree. Thats not true.

U are making a big fuss out of hybrid spec! Its really **** survival and control.

Backlash is really bad, because u cant not control when u wanna be able to use cc on the enemy the right moment. Same with electric bindings.

Imagine u gank a shielded sorc and the backlash activates and u "trinket" out of cc and he use the push back skill sorc have(electric bindings activate). Now the sorc is pretty much ****ed! why ? cause u are immune to future cc now LOL. those 2 are the worst cc in game cause its not something that controllable. The sorc cant use 4 sec stun and lift you up when he really needs it for healing or dooing burst the right moment.

Im gonna say it again. You are looking wrong on this hybrid spec. They die easy and are like glass cannons. There is NO control if the cc activates by it self when its not needed the right moment yet! thats why its ****!
Not going to argue with people that don't even know their own class. If you're bad then obviously you won't feel OP. You can pre-cast bubble and either wait for damage to break it OR click it off yourself to activate it on-demand. I mentioned this in the original post. Electric Bindings also adds the same resolve as a the main knockback it's attached to. You're not going to fill up a resolve bar with just Electric Bindings-Overload + Backlash immobilize(although that's already an entire 8 seconds of complete immunity from anyone around you).

Yoda Says:
Reading comprehension, important it is.

Quote: Originally Posted by RobyBaggio View Post
Sorcerers on my server, Swifture, which is the no.1 most populated server in the world, in lvl 50 tend to be on the bottom. This a server where people had Battlemaster gear with within the first week...so...

Well Warriors tend to be up the top. The Sorcerers is very good at low levels, because of it's wide range of utility. But with very good players in Warzone they lose their value exponentially, especially the hybrid spec.

The Hybrid spec is useless in 1v1. And this happens more often then not. Good players understand this and effectiveness becomes moot.

The reason they get away with doing a lot of damage is not because they do a lot of damage it's because they are not targeted. This is how most warzones set up strategically:

Warrior and Tanks get to the front. Assassins and Opertaives start to flank, one or two may stealth to the middle trying get the oppositions best player. But most of those flank in order to drop 1 or 2. Snipers and Sorcerers, along with their healers stand back and support these guys.

Now in order to get to a sorcerer for most people, you either have to be very brave or very stupid. Because they stand back with several players in front of them, it means having to run through the whole opposition to get to them. Now this is disaster because 1 v 8 is not a good tactic and you are just asking to be nuked and spammed.

This is what I do everytime. What? You just said this is very stupid. Yes to the untrained eye it appears to be a stupid tactic but it seems I win every game doing this.

First of all they don't expect you to run through their team like an idiot to do this. They usually have their targets set on the oppositions group. Especially the sorcerers. While the sorcerer tends to look at the vast landscape of the battlefield, their long range vision means they sacrifice short range vision. Believe it or not, I have tested this hundreds of times, at times I've stood there for several seconds and not done anything just to see if they would attack me. Completely ignored me, meanwhile, they spam down the field. It seems incredible but it's just normal human psychology.

Quit babbling on and on about nothing. You basically took two paragraphs to say "Sorcerers stand in the back because they're ranged DPS" and we all already know this.

So, while the sorcerer is kiting from a distance I'm right next to him. I should say behind him because they can't use their lighting unless their standing still and there is nothing more annoying than my Marauder cutting your health in half with simple melee while I jump up and down doing rings around my opponent. And while I build up my rage I haven't used Charge, Smash, or Force Scream, or etc... etc...

Back to that tactic of running like an idiot though a crowd of people. I honestly feel like not even mentioning these tactics and keeping them to myself just because of the effectiveness. For example, I very rarely see Mararuders use their Intimating Roar unless they are needing to get out of a near death situation. I actually look to use it as one of first abilities. Paralyzing all enemies nearby for 6 seconds is extraordinary weapon in an arsenal. Talk about God Mode. I run into a group 4 or more, they are all on the ground; the rest get picked off by my team. Instant tactical win. And it goes a long way to winning a game.

Only an idiot uses Intimidating Roar as one of their first abilities. It's an incapacitate that is broken on damage. Unless you're all in vent/ts/mumble coordinating with each other the CC will be broken very quickly and every single person in the pile will have an enormous amount of resolve built up.

It's very simple, bad players, bad teams (as teams tend not to be premade) and the fact that very few people take the initiative to instruct players what to do, means that if you think that so called most OP class in the game is sorcerers then logically you should have them high on your hit list. Not too mention they drop down like a sack of spuds. I can get their shield down within a second if I want, and then it's goodnight. Yet even though their apparently OP, nobody wants to go kill them. That's right, because most ppl are too scared to get to them and so they get kited all day.


Again you babble on about NOTHING. There is nothing I can respond to here because you're not even making a point. You're just typing words for the sake of typing words. This can basically be summarized into "You should ask your team to focus Sorcerers" which by the way isn't helping your case.

That's your fault. The socrerer will only hurt you if you let him. Otherwise they drop quicker than anybody else in Warzone. Maybe L2P, and I don't mean just your class before you start making threads about class balance.

You haven't even spoken about one tactical or strategical element of warzone pvp, or any counterable measures. You haven't even touched the surface of what pvp is about. In fact all you post is that a hybrid spec is thus easier to play than a full skilled tree spec. Easier does not mean OP. And in this case it's not OP at all.

You sir are a master at "fluff" writing. You turned maybe 3-4 sentences into paragraphs of nothing. You do say one thing worth a response though..

"Easier does not mean OP."

Except that it sometimes does. If someone is able to casually press one of their many many CC buttons whenever they're in trouble while someone else in the same situation has to either die or use CCs, Interrupts, or multiple CDs to get through it there's an imbalance. If someone is able to kite multiple players by chaining CCs when no other class in the game can achieve that sort of control then there is imbalance.

When a class can keep everyone in an AoE CC'd for an entire 8 seconds with two 20-second cooldowns that's imbalanced.

Write less filler/fluff and actually make clear concise posts.

Quote: Originally Posted by ejstout View Post
I like that all of his screenshots show that he uses Shockfrozen water
It's not an exploit. Devs haven't said anything about it. In-game GMs say it's fine or give an automated response. The only classes that really abuse it for a real advantage are Assassins and Operatives because they can stealth to drop combat and heal mid-fight. I can use it after a fight is over and I'm hiding in a corner waiting the 10 seconds it takes to drop combat.

Quote: Originally Posted by Nazutron View Post
Now ill show what happends when u let a sorc/sage do dps:

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/465/l2pa.jpg

As u can see the 2 other sages are also hybrid but fail cause they are dying and getting focused on. Notice my deaths and their deaths stats. I did my best to be behind pillars and let impire focus the others. I used my mates as dummies while i laughed at them without anyone stopping me that much. There was few on me , that why i healed that much.

In this warzone i only focused to do high total damage without thinking about winning :P

nr. 1 rule! Seriusly focus the hybrid sorcs/sages and they will end in bottom of list. They are so easy to kill.

As i said before there will always be 1 sorc/sage that gets away with dooing aoe! :P When i meet smart enemenies im pretty much worthless as hybrid :P
There are always bad players. The difference is a bad hybrid sorcerer will still do better than an equally bad player of another class.

P.S. - There are hybrid sorcerers on my server that aren't all that great and broke 600k in voidstar. There was even one game where a Sage broke 700k damage. I can break 530k with a single target melee. 490k doesn't mean you're a great player who wins because of skill and not his class. There are terrible players in most WZs and making comparisons to them just sets you up for complacency. Wait for Rated WZs or Arenas to compare yourself to other players in-game. Most players that care about the game enough to go on the forms do 300k+ every single warzone. The fact that I, as a Marauder with only a level 28 sorcerer, knew you could click off bubble for an on-demand immobilize and you, as a geared 50 Sorcerer, didn't have any clue about that just strengthens my case.

http://i.imgur.com/xfhCn.jpg
Wrath
Pre-Launch Hardcore Guild that has moved on to better games.
www.wrathnation.com

TetraCleric's Avatar


TetraCleric
02.12.2012 , 01:37 PM | #503
ITT: People that take padded warzone numbers to heart on an AoE fest warzone.

Oh and btw, I can break 500k as 31 mad easily in Voidstar, assuming I'm left alone to turret.

Varicite's Avatar


Varicite
02.12.2012 , 01:38 PM | #504
Quote: Originally Posted by Naethion View Post
Well, there aren't many options. There needs to be balance between damage and control. You cannot have both. And when I mean damage, I mean both Sustained and burst. If you have both damage and control, you have frost mages. So BW needs to figure out something.
That's the whole problem, though. Sorcs don't have amazing damage; they have the lowest single-target damage of any dps.

When people look at the damage done on the scoreboard and freak out about Sorcs, they do not realize that the vast majority of that damage is coming from dots and aoes. I can do the same amount of damage as my Sorc on my PT pretty easily; the difference is that my PT is generally single-target outside of Death From Above. So when I am breaking 300-400k damage, I am doing that to single players and blowing them up.

On my Sorc, it means I found a good group of people to shoot Chain Lightning/Death Field/Force Storm into to pad my numbers.

What Sorcs do have is control, and tons of it.

Frost mages had not only amazing control, but also incredible controlled burst capability on top of much better defenses than any Sorc. Apples and oranges.

If you take away that control, they don't have any on-demand burst or real defenses outside of Static Barrier.

The only thing keeping them alive to do damage IS the CC that everyone wants taken away.

I can tell you right now, if you nerf their CC, you've pretty much made them even more of a free win for my PT. There won't be a Sorc alive who can stand up to a good melee ever again.
Quote: Originally Posted by JayPres View Post
Strap your digital dog to your digital roof and take your ideologies, lovely wife, and sweet little 8yr old girl to a PVE server where you fit best.

Varicite's Avatar


Varicite
02.12.2012 , 01:41 PM | #505
Quote: Originally Posted by TetraCleric View Post
ITT: People that take padded warzone numbers to heart on an AoE fest warzone.

Oh and btw, I can break 500k as 31 mad easily in Voidstar, assuming I'm left alone to turret.
Seriously, how is this thread 50 pages and no one can take this into account?

No one cares about Voidstar padded damage numbers.

AoE class does a ton of AoE damage w/out killing people. Ooh.

Just look at the screen shot; see how the Sorc that did all that damage also managed to kill 10 less people than almost everyone in the same place on the leaderboard?

People. /sigh
Quote: Originally Posted by JayPres View Post
Strap your digital dog to your digital roof and take your ideologies, lovely wife, and sweet little 8yr old girl to a PVE server where you fit best.

Dregas's Avatar


Dregas
02.12.2012 , 01:43 PM | #506
Quote: Originally Posted by Varicite View Post
It's funny that you should write this post. If you read through this thread, you'll also find various tactics on how to deal w/ a Sorc/Sage to shut them down.

Absolutely no one complaining about Sorcs in this thread has even offered an attempt at strategy against them, they are simply complaining that they are OP and refusing to learn how to fight them.

Anyone that you don't know how to fight is going to feel OP until you learn how to deal w/ them.

In fact, there's a post on this page that generally mirrors most peoples' sentiments. "omg, if you see a Sorc/Sage on the other team, just quit the warzone".

Yeah, it's your own mentality that is making them seem OP. There are plenty of people in this thread who have no problem dropping a Sorc, or destroying their damage output entirely.

What's the difference between them and you who are complaining? They took the time to learn what to do against a Sorc, instead of coming here to ask for nerfs instead.

Seriously, the best argument against a Sorc that I've seen in the whole thread is that they synergize well when you stack 3-4 of them.

News flash: All of the healing classes synergize extremely well when you stack them and become almost impossible to kill.
Once again you missed the entire point of my posting with that same l2p attitude. The fact of the matter is that you shouldn't have to jump through a ton of hoops to deal with an opposing class, when they can blow you away with a quarter the button presses. That's called a mismatch in efficiency, and your skills have absolutely nothing to add to that equation. It's a developer problem which you are arrogantly ignoring because you will not admit such disparities even exists.

And if you are willing to admit it, then that means you are just dandy with having one class completely dominate others with little effort, while all of the opposing classes must just suck it up and deal with a complicated rotation to even have a chance at competing.

Using a class that is highly inefficient to fight a very optimized one has it's limits. So land your mind back in reality and think like a game designer whose goal it is to make all classes have a fair chance at each other.

TetraCleric's Avatar


TetraCleric
02.12.2012 , 01:43 PM | #507
Quote: Originally Posted by Varicite View Post
Seriously, how is this thread 50 pages and no one can take this into account?

No one cares about Voidstar padded damage numbers.

AoE class does a ton of AoE damage w/out killing people. Ooh.

Just look at the screen shot; see how the Sorc that did all that damage also managed to kill 10 less people than almost everyone in the same place on the leaderboard?

People. /sigh
People also like to not even look at the healing done by the other team. One healer had 420k healing. How much of that mitigated the effective damage of the sorc?


I'd also like to point out that this game was not balanced so that each class has a chance to beat another class. This is a rock, paper, scissors game. Period. And sorc/sage is the only class to not actually have a hard counter. If you think they have a hard counter, you don't know how to play this so called "countered" class.

Jurence's Avatar


Jurence
02.12.2012 , 01:47 PM | #508
Hi everyone. I am a member of Divas, a highly selective and elite group or PvPrs. I am a top DPS hybrid sorcerer. I casually get 400k+ DPS

I am a firm believer that if you make madness (force lightning no longer has a cooldown) higher up in the tier and unobtainable by most hybrid specs (but still POSSIBLE -- you will just be missing out on all of the nice percs of lightning tree) that most of the woes of instant cast chain lightning will no longer be an issue.

If you take out chain lightning, I will simply use lightning strike instead for 1v1, and utilize death field more often. Death field and chain lightning are on par with each other but it is very inconvenient to use because it is a click cast.

I believe alacrity will get a decent buff in a future patch. If hybrid builds are nerfed outside of reasonability, top PVPrs will be going full lightning.

Thank you,
Twink

Varicite's Avatar


Varicite
02.12.2012 , 01:50 PM | #509
Quote: Originally Posted by Dregas View Post
Once again you missed the entire point of my posting with that same l2p attitude. The fact of the matter is that you shouldn't have to jump through a ton of hoops to deal with an opposing class, when they can blow you away with a quarter the button presses. That's called a mismatch in efficiency, and your skills have absolutely nothing to add to that equation. It's a developer problem which you are arrogantly ignoring because you will not admit such disparities even exists.

And if you are willing to admit it, then that means you are just dandy with having one class completely dominate others with little effort, while all of the opposing classes must just suck it up and deal with a complicated rotation to even have a chance at competing.

Using a class that is highly inefficient to fight a very optimized one has it's limits. So land your mind back in reality and think like a game designer whose goal it is to make all classes have a fair chance at each other.
It's not any more hoops than I have to jump through w/ other classes. In fact, it's less, considering it's an almost guaranteed win assuming that I even make the attempt. I can jump through all the same hoops against a good Scoundrel or Sentinel and believe me, there is no guarantee that I'm going to come out on top at the end.

I don't feel that Sorcs dominate others w/ little effort; that's your opinion. I feel that Sorcs get dominated quite handily by anyone w/ a bit of knowledge of their class mechanics and the willingness to focus them.

Interrupt Force Lightning, don't let them LoS, save gap closer for Force Sprint, use stuns when interrupts are on cd.

That's really too many hoops to jump through for people?

My mind has been firmly in reality the whole time. Just from reading your post, it sounds as though you believe that Sorcerers are some sort of godly class that only need look at the screen in order to destroy all opponents and single-handedly win warzones.

I assure you, if you believe this, my reality is not the one that needs a check.
Quote: Originally Posted by JayPres View Post
Strap your digital dog to your digital roof and take your ideologies, lovely wife, and sweet little 8yr old girl to a PVE server where you fit best.

Varicite's Avatar


Varicite
02.12.2012 , 01:56 PM | #510
Quote: Originally Posted by TetraCleric View Post
People also like to not even look at the healing done by the other team. One healer had 420k healing. How much of that mitigated the effective damage of the sorc?


I'd also like to point out that this game was not balanced so that each class has a chance to beat another class. This is a rock, paper, scissors game. Period. And sorc/sage is the only class to not actually have a hard counter. If you think they have a hard counter, you don't know how to play this so called "countered" class.
Did that healing not also mitigate the damage of every other player on his team?

And as the other dps classes have a much higher single-target damage capability, does this not also mean that healing more effectively counters the sustained damage of a Sorc as opposed to the burst damage of others?

Your argument of: "If you do well against Sorcs, you just don't know how to play them" is ridiculous at best.

Also, for hard counters, see: Sentinel/Shadow.
Quote: Originally Posted by JayPres View Post
Strap your digital dog to your digital roof and take your ideologies, lovely wife, and sweet little 8yr old girl to a PVE server where you fit best.