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Let's talk about Strike Fighters

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
Let's talk about Strike Fighters
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Kinsha's Avatar


Kinsha
11.27.2015 , 11:46 PM | #911
Would that stack with a DO power up? Additive? Multiplicative? We'd be seeing 1-2k dmg quad hits or 900-1500 or so HLC shots. This isn't even accounting for a critical hit. Strikes are fighter craft... not portable turbo laser cannons. This would basically equip strikes with a longer ranged albeit slightly harder to center high RoF BLC.

ALaggyGrunt's Avatar


ALaggyGrunt
11.28.2015 , 01:06 AM | #912
Unfortunately, with the way battlescouts with a META build aren't balanced right now, that's what it's going to take for a strike to actually threaten them in a joust.

Either that or make them boost forever and ridiculously hard to shut down/offer build options which do this. Some DPS specs are designed that way in the ground game.

Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
11.28.2015 , 06:29 AM | #913
Quote: Originally Posted by Kinsha View Post
. . . . . . Strikes are fighter craft... not portable turbo laser cannons. . . . . . .
Hey, tell that to Battlescouts with offensive cooldowns active.

Or do scouts get an exemption because they're highly portable turbolaser cannons? Or because they're highly portable turbolaser cannons with highly effective secondary weapons that can be used at the same time?


To answer the question it would probably work just like weapons currently work. So roughly 800 damage on a normal HLC shot and 1600 if it had an active DO on top of that. So yes, strikes at that point would have damage output close to as good as a T1 or T2 scout though probably still less peak burst. Also less ability to keep targets in range and centered, though if accompanied by a range or accuracy increase that might be compensated for.


For reference, with DO currently in the vast majority of situations a strike has trouble matching the DPS of a scout without DO. A gigantic buff purely to damage looks a bit silly, but it gets talked about because the buffs to strikes are going to need to have a gigantic effect if they're to become competitive with other ship classes.
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JasonSzeremi's Avatar


JasonSzeremi
11.28.2015 , 12:36 PM | #914
Quote: Originally Posted by Kinsha View Post
Would that stack with a DO power up? Additive? Multiplicative? We'd be seeing 1-2k dmg quad hits or 900-1500 or so HLC shots. This isn't even accounting for a critical hit. Strikes are fighter craft... not portable turbo laser cannons. This would basically equip strikes with a longer ranged albeit slightly harder to center high RoF BLC.
compare strikes dps to the gunships (1600 per shot) or the T2 scouts with their offensive cool downs (strikes would like some offensive/defensive cool downs too...) and you might see that strikes currently have to be careful and very good to come close to what the scouts are dishing out.... so, the portable armor piercing super burst damage shotguns have already set a pretty high bar for damage output. It makes dogfights with them short only because they blow the other fighters or even bombers using their defensive cool downs away. The T2 pilot's response? "Avoid the T2 scout when it's offensive cool downs are up" which bombers can't do, and strikes can barely try... since the scout is ALSO one of the most mobile ships. As for portable turbo lasers.... what are gunships again? They out-range the cannons on the capital ships...

All I really ask, is for my craft to have the ability to shoot ships down just as well as the other guy, and to be just as vulnerable to damage as the other guy.

Danalon's Avatar


Danalon
11.28.2015 , 01:53 PM | #915
Quote: Originally Posted by JasonSzeremi View Post
compare strikes dps to the gunships (1600 per shot) or the T2 scouts with their offensive cool downs (strikes would like some offensive/defensive cool downs too...) and you might see that strikes currently have to be careful and very good to come close to what the scouts are dishing out.... so, the portable armor piercing super burst damage shotguns have already set a pretty high bar for damage output. It makes dogfights with them short only because they blow the other fighters or even bombers using their defensive cool downs away. The T2 pilot's response? "Avoid the T2 scout when it's offensive cool downs are up" which bombers can't do, and strikes can barely try... since the scout is ALSO one of the most mobile ships. As for portable turbo lasers.... what are gunships again? They out-range the cannons on the capital ships...

All I really ask, is for my craft to have the ability to shoot ships down just as well as the other guy, and to be just as vulnerable to damage as the other guy.
Gunships have to fully charge their secondary weapon while sitting still and glowing like a christmas tree to deal 1600 damage per shot. Scouts have to come very close to their target when using BLC or have to get into a good position when using Q&P - and in both cases, while firing the Scout is relatively exposed to enemy fire and usually extended into enemy territory.
Bombers are perfectly fit to avoid a Scout with cooldowns up, as long as they have an obstacle to hide and set up their deployables.

I'm all for a Strike buff, if it's a pure damage buff, so be it. But please, if you make comparisons to other weapons, also keep their downsides in mind.

ALaggyGrunt's Avatar


ALaggyGrunt
11.28.2015 , 02:56 PM | #916
That's still not a problem for a gunship. It comes down to how we actually use our weapons: the gunship only needs to fire the instant a target peeks out from behind something. Burst lasers still only need to be on target once every ~0.75 seconds: you can shoot -> fly -> shoot -> fly, which isn't too hard if you're chasing a rock hugger. That's still why all the other short-range guns fall flat on their face, and that's still why the strike's correct response to a turning fight with a scout or gunship is to run and hide, because once it blows retros (if it even has retros), the fight had better end pretty fast or it's going to end badly.

The only way we're going to tune scouts as scouts without making gunships broken is if they have options to shut a gunship down which don't depend on burst damage, like the Mag Pulse "you thought you had charged weapons" from ye olde TIE Fighter games, or the EMP field, or sab probe, and make it a lot safer for a strike to approach and terminate.

Greezt's Avatar


Greezt
11.28.2015 , 03:16 PM | #917
Quote: Originally Posted by Danalon View Post
Gunships have to fully charge their secondary weapon while sitting still and glowing like a christmas tree to deal 1600 damage per shot. Scouts have to come very close to their target when using BLC or have to get into a good position when using Q&P - and in both cases, while firing the Scout is relatively exposed to enemy fire and usually extended into enemy territory.
Bombers are perfectly fit to avoid a Scout with cooldowns up, as long as they have an obstacle to hide and set up their deployables.

I'm all for a Strike buff, if it's a pure damage buff, so be it. But please, if you make comparisons to other weapons, also keep their downsides in mind.
"Glowing like a christmas tree"? C'mon... You can see a gunship charging up if you happen to be looking in the right direction, but much good it'll do you if you're 12k out on a strike (or scout or bomber, for that matter). As for the scout positioning - true, but scouts are maneuverable exactly for that reason. And when firing, the scout is exposed - until it kills its' target, and then it can run away (usuallly <2 seconds), not to mention that scouts stack so much evasion that the can afford to be exposed.

I'm sure no one meant to say that other ships are OP etc., anyway, but other ships can utilize their abilities much better than strikes.

Danalon's Avatar


Danalon
11.28.2015 , 04:30 PM | #918
Quote: Originally Posted by Greezt View Post
I'm sure no one meant to say that other ships are OP etc., anyway, but other ships can utilize their abilities much better than strikes.
It's not that other ships can utilize their abilities better. It's that Strikes simply don't have any abilities.

I'd love to see Strikes more durable. Adding more shield/hull (or some base evasion) and bigger energy pools, so they don't fall apart as soon as someone is looking at them while also rarely running out of energy. I'd also love to see Strikes to really be able to do damage. Buffing other lasers to the point where they're competetive with BLC, for example the other close range lasers need more DPS or rebalancing AP. Also to give Strikes more usefulness they could have boni on lock-on weapons (faster lock-on and reload, higher range, bonus on damage or missiles becoming harder to break).

The point I was trying to make: saying "Gunships do 1600 damage per shot" isn't a good way to compare weapons.

Kinsha's Avatar


Kinsha
11.28.2015 , 06:00 PM | #919
Quote: Originally Posted by Ramalina View Post
Hey, tell that to Battlescouts with offensive cooldowns active.
I'm all for battle scout nerfs but sometimes when that topic come up it's like poking a bear.

I do think HLC, which is probably the strikes most viable weapon for all sorts of reason could use buffs, but I think a 100% increase is far too drastic. Just think about the recent comp buffs from 4.0 . Massive buffs frequently cause unintended side effects and I'm going to classify doubling the damage of a weapon as massive. You could see a strike one shotting new players on a scout if they take the crit talent on HLC. If the strike takes armor piercing, it "only" badly maims a target by stripping all shields and destroying half the hull. That's just the first shot though and usually a target takes 2 shots before evasive action.

Danalon's Avatar


Danalon
11.28.2015 , 10:13 PM | #920
Bombers have acces to HLC too, so buffing it, would also buff Bombers. I think the buff needs to be on the Strike chassis itself - additionaly to buffing the generally weaker components. As missiles (except Clusters) are the only secondary weapon which most people don't use on the other classes, I'd like to see Strikes as the missile class. Making Strikes more durable and making missiles stronger on them, up to the point where a Strike's missiles become dangerous for others, could make them a part of the meta with the added benefit of being a good choice for newer players.