" - Abuse or exploit bugs, undocumented features, design errors or problems in the game. "

Right there, in the terms of use, EULA, whatever you want to call it.

This is a design error/ Undocumented feature So yes, they are breaching the terms.

Well can you blame them? All 50-bracket PvP Is Gear grind, Gear grind, Gear grind and going up against Premades.

'1-49 bracket PvP', '1-49', '49'. They're allowed to stay at level 49 if they want, their choice. If you're getting thrashed by level 49s then tough. It's much like getting thrashed in 50-bracket PvP by Premades. And since it's in the 1-49 Brackets, they're not doing anything wrong. If they don't want to get Exp. from WZs, then fine, that's their choice. Not their fault you're whining about a legitimate feature.

And this isn't an 'undocumented feature', as BW lets them leave the WZ anytime they want, BW lets them get 16K HP in 1-49 Bracket PvP, BW lets them thrash those who have less HP. If BW lets them, then it's not breaking any rules.

Well can you blame them? All 50-bracket PvP Is Gear grind, Gear grind, Gear grind and going up against Premades.

 

'1-49 bracket PvP', '1-49', '49'. They're allowed to stay at level 49 if they want, their choice. If you're getting thrashed by level 49s then tough. It's much like getting thrashed in 50-bracket PvP by Premades. And since it's in the 1-49 Brackets, they're not doing anything wrong. If they don't want to get Exp. from WZs, then fine, that's their choice. Not their fault you're whining about a legitimate feature.

 

And this isn't an 'undocumented feature', as BW lets them leave the WZ anytime they want, BW lets them get 16K HP in 1-49 Bracket PvP, BW lets them thrash those who have less HP. If BW lets them, then it's not breaking any rules.

The game was designed to give you XP for PVP matches. There was an error in the design that allows you to play the entire match and leave prior to gaining XP. The error is not that you can leave warzones, there are legitimate reasons to do so, but that you can leave warzones simply to avoid XP immediately before it is over.

The ability to have ridiculous amounts of HP due to overgearing your toon is also not a design issue. Essentially, it's fine for people to setup their characters in a way to give them an advantage by following the rules, but to perpetually stay in this state by abusing a tool that is in game (leave warzone) other than for it's intended purpose (having a RL issue that forces you to stop) would be an exploit based on an error in the way XP gained in warzones was designed.

Well can you blame them? All 50-bracket PvP Is Gear grind, Gear grind, Gear grind and going up against Premades.

 

'1-49 bracket PvP', '1-49', '49'. They're allowed to stay at level 49 if they want, their choice. If you're getting thrashed by level 49s then tough. It's much like getting thrashed in 50-bracket PvP by Premades. And since it's in the 1-49 Brackets, they're not doing anything wrong. If they don't want to get Exp. from WZs, then fine, that's their choice. Not their fault you're whining about a legitimate feature.

 

And this isn't an 'undocumented feature', as BW lets them leave the WZ anytime they want, BW lets them get 16K HP in 1-49 Bracket PvP, BW lets them thrash those who have less HP. If BW lets them, then it's not breaking any rules.

Yes, I can blame them. No problems at all blaming them. I went through the level 50 gear "grind" - twice. If they don't want to grind let them create another toon and stay in the <49 bracket legitimately instead of selfishly affecting others.

Personally I have no issues with pick up groups - that is imo what PVP (and PvE) is about. Working together as a group to accomplish a goal (ie win). Personally I think complaining about PUGs is lamer than lame. I wouldn't deny anyone that right - and I wouldn't say, "Bioware shouldn't address it" - but I think it's seriously lame.

As for thinking this is "legitimate" well - again... not sure what to say to someone who thinks that way. Other than discretion is (almost) always the better part of valor.

The game was designed to give you XP for PVP matches. There was an error in the design that allows you to play the entire match and leave prior to gaining XP. The error is not that you can leave warzones, there are legitimate reasons to do so, but that you can leave warzones simply to avoid XP immediately before it is over.

The game was designed to give you rewards if you finish a match. Leaving a match gives you no rewards. Thus, there is nothing wrong with leaving because you get no rewards. All these people complaining about avoid xp would be right in calling it an exploit if players were able to get comms, valor, money, but not the xp. But it doesn't work that way. You get nothing.

The ability to have ridiculous amounts of HP due to overgearing your toon is also not a design issue. Essentially, it's fine for people to setup their characters in a way to give them an advantage by following the rules, but to perpetually stay in this state by abusing a tool that is in game (leave warzone) other than for it's intended purpose (having a RL issue that forces you to stop) would be an exploit based on an error in the way XP gained in warzones was designed.

And yet people leave WZs all the time for reasons other than "real life" issues. People leave because they hate the WZ. People leave because they are losing. They leave because they are a backfill. They leave because their teammates are all 15k hp recruit geared. It doesn't matter why they leave. The fact is they can because BW allows them to.

Also, please tell us how you would go about proving that anyone who leaves a WZ isn't doing it for real life reasons and to avoid xp. Unless you can video tape that 49 in person playing, showing that he didn't, in fact, have RL issues, you can't prove it.

-.- I don't even know what to say. Whether it's BW or EA, the ToS is what will gett you banned -if- EA or BW wants to ban you. Please stop being a sore loser. Untill BW either fixes it or comments on it, neither one of us can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that Bioware considers the problem an exploit or not. We can "prove" is a logical progression:

Except that ToS is a generic form that EA uses in all their games. Hence why the language in it is so generic, and it uses terms like EA services, instead of saying SWTOR. The gem that is the ToS also includes:

"- Engage in disruptive behavior in chat areas, game areas, forums, or any other area or aspect of EA Services. Disruptive behavior includes but is not limited to conduct which interferes with the normal flow of gameplay or dialogue within an EA Service. Disruptive behavior shall also include, but not be limited to, commercial postings, solicitations and advertisements. "

I guess according to the ToS, we'll all be banned for camping people in open world pvp or mass invading an opposite faction's base. Funny thing is, I remember there was a post long ago about a GM threatening to ban a bunch of players who invaded Aurek base, using the "disrupting gameplay" from the ToS as a reason to ban them. Well BW apologized for that GM.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=4472438#post4475137

In conclusion, the people who are actually responsible in determining what is bannable or not, and does the actual banning is BioWare, regardless of what the ToS says. BW has the final say in these matters. Thus, I will take BW's defition of what an exploit is, over EA's.

I propose having the players policing this. If you notice an individual quitting several times, pop them on your ignore list. Would be difficult to PvP when their queues won't pop.

That only works with group finder AFAIK.

That only works with group finder AFAIK.

This would be the perfect chance to test how thorough the devs made the ignore params

Also, please tell us how you would go about proving that anyone who leaves a WZ isn't doing it for real life reasons and to avoid xp. Unless you can video tape that 49 in person playing, showing that he didn't, in fact, have RL issues, you can't prove it.

When they leave, and show up in the next WZ that pops soon after you zone back to where ever you are in the world(galaxy, universe?), rinse and repeat, I think that is someone that isn't leaving for "real life reasons".

This would be the perfect chance to test how thorough the devs made the ignore params

Yea, not very thorough, put someone on ignore, queued, and there they are in the WZ with me LOL

When they leave, and show up in the next WZ that pops soon after you zone back to where ever you are in the world(galaxy, universe?), rinse and repeat, I think that is someone that isn't leaving for "real life reasons".

Circumstantial evidence bro. Doesn't fly.

Circumstantial evidence bro. Doesn't fly.

So you're saying that if you spent a few hours a day for a couple days PvP'ing on a lowbie toon and in pretty much every WZ you did a lvl 49 was there and leaving every single time before it ended you'd think "oh, they must have a problem." And then see them 2 mins. later in another WZ and the same thing happens, you'd keep thinking "Wow, dude's having problems today. Guess it's a good thing it's not bad enough to keep them from playing a game they obviously love." It would never occur to you that they are doing it intentionally?

So you're saying that if you spent a few hours a day for a couple days PvP'ing on a lowbie toon and in pretty much every WZ you did a lvl 49 was there and leaving every single time before it ended you'd think "oh, they must have a problem." And then see them 2 mins. later in another WZ and the same thing happens, you'd keep thinking "Wow, dude's having problems today. Guess it's a good thing it's not bad enough to keep them from playing a game they obviously love." It would never occur to you that they are doing it intentionally?

Ya those guys another poster mention - like what 15 of them? Level 49 since this summer... ya... they never do it intentionally.

Whether it's intentional or not - is moot. No one is looking to "punish" the exploiters - simply to remove the exploit.

This would be the perfect chance to test how thorough the devs made the ignore params

Ya unfortunately ignoring someone doesn't prevent them from being in a wz with you.

: (

So you're saying that if you spent a few hours a day for a couple days PvP'ing on a lowbie toon and in pretty much every WZ you did a lvl 49 was there and leaving every single time before it ended you'd think "oh, they must have a problem." And then see them 2 mins. later in another WZ and the same thing happens, you'd keep thinking "Wow, dude's having problems today. Guess it's a good thing it's not bad enough to keep them from playing a game they obviously love." It would never occur to you that they are doing it intentionally?

Believing they are doing it intentionally, and PROVING it would be two different things, which is all he's trying to say.

So you're saying that if you spent a few hours a day for a couple days PvP'ing on a lowbie toon and in pretty much every WZ you did a lvl 49 was there and leaving every single time before it ended you'd think "oh, they must have a problem." And then see them 2 mins. later in another WZ and the same thing happens, you'd keep thinking "Wow, dude's having problems today. Guess it's a good thing it's not bad enough to keep them from playing a game they obviously love." It would never occur to you that they are doing it intentionally?

That's akin to holding a bloodied dagger over a stabbed murder victim, an hour earlier you saying "i'm going to kill him" while picking up a knife and wondering into the dark of night, laughing and saying "glad he's dead" as police drag you away. However, your defense is "prove that I stabbed him."

Believing they are doing it intentionally, and PROVING it would be two different things, which is all he's trying to say.

Proving it isn't necessary. Again -- no one is asking that people who engage in this exploit be punished. The way xp is doled out simply needs to change.

Yea, not very thorough, put someone on ignore, queued, and there they are in the WZ with me LOL

Trolls would abuse this tool to great extent if the Devs made it so you don't get put in WZs with people on your ignore. They simply add everyone to their ignore list.

For some reason your name reminds of Senna the f1 driver.

As for people staying in the sub 50 is pretty boring now that you have those f2p players in there. Most of time they don't know what to do.

Yes, I can blame them. No problems at all blaming them. I went through the level 50 gear "grind" - twice. If they don't want to grind let them create another toon and stay in the <49 bracket legitimately instead of selfishly affecting others.

 

Personally I have no issues with pick up groups - that is imo what PVP (and PvE) is about. Working together as a group to accomplish a goal (ie win). Personally I think complaining about PUGs is lamer than lame. I wouldn't deny anyone that right - and I wouldn't say, "Bioware shouldn't address it" - but I think it's seriously lame.

 

As for thinking this is "legitimate" well - again... not sure what to say to someone who thinks that way. Other than discretion is (almost) always the better part of valor.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realise we all had to advance to level 50 and we all have to suffer the Gear grind, and that it is completely evil if we stay at level 49.

The problem is, you don't know (and can't prove) that they don't have problems IRL that they have to leave the match everytime. Maybe their game crashes when the scoreboard shows, meaning they have to leave before it comes up. Maybe they're being forced by the Secret Service to leave the WZs before the scoreboard appears. Regardless of how stupid or crazy or unlikely these may be, they're still possible. You can't prove them otherwise. And last I checked it is completely legitimate to leave a WZ for IRL problems.

So yeah, go video tape every person who does this and send me proof that they're leaving so they don't get Exp, then we'll have something to talk about instead of you making accusations you can't back up.

For some reason your name reminds of Senna the f1 driver.

 

As for people staying in the sub 50 is pretty boring now that you have those f2p players in there. Most of time they don't know what to do.

Not necessarily, some F2Pers are people who used to be Subbed but left, so they have some idea of what to do.

But yeah, it can be annoying to see someone with the ball in Huttball, they have 1% of life left, teammates are everywhere and they don't pass. But I think they learn after me yelling for them to pass.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realise we all had to advance to level 50 and we all have to suffer the Gear grind, and that it is completely evil if we stay at level 49.

 

The problem is, you don't know (and can't prove) that they don't have problems IRL that they have to leave the match everytime. Maybe their game crashes when the scoreboard shows, meaning they have to leave before it comes up. Maybe they're being forced by the Secret Service to leave the WZs before the scoreboard appears. Regardless of how stupid or crazy or unlikely these may be, they're still possible. You can't prove them otherwise. And last I checked it is completely legitimate to leave a WZ for IRL problems.

 

So yeah, go video tape every person who does this and send me proof that they're leaving so they don't get Exp, then we'll have something to talk about instead of you making accusations you can't back up.

I don't need to back up anything. The simple fact is - it's possible.

i'll say it again - the point isn't to punish people for engaging in the exploit - it's to change the way xp is awarded so people can't exploit.

For some reason your name reminds of Senna the f1 driver.

 

As for people staying in the sub 50 is pretty boring now that you have those f2p players in there. Most of time they don't know what to do.

If you're suggesting that it's just F2P people who "don't know what to do" - I'd say you were very lucky in terms of who you get grouped with