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Dunno how much this would help but...

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Bounty Hunter > Mercenary
Dunno how much this would help but...

Kurugi's Avatar


Kurugi
12.09.2012 , 04:50 AM | #1
Seems one of the main complaints about Mercs in PvP is their lack of survivability/ability to escape as a ranged class. I was just thinking and can't recall seeing this idea floating around: If Powertechs can spec to use their jet packs to charge an opponent like warriors force charge...why can't they give Mercs an ability that uses their jet pack to quickly speed away, like an inquisitor's force speed?

The only complaint I can see about something like this is it homogenizes the classes a bit since another class has something functionally identical and some people hate the idea of all classes feeling "samey".

Honestly though I don't see how much better Sorcs and Snipers are over Merc, on paper at least. They all focus on cast times no matter what spec you go for damage, you're going to have to stand still to get your main abilities off, so I don't see how Mercs are any more worse off in this regard.

Sorcs have bubble and force speed. Snipers have cover that prevents them being charged and entrench to make them CC immune (although makes them immobile since they have to stay in cover to keep the effect). Those are the main things I see other ranged classes having over Mercs, but I don't see how these things equate to Mercs being considered by some to be "unplayable" in PvP. They could definitely use a boost, but I can't see how some people act like playing as one is an effort in futility.

The differences between the ranged classes just don't seem major enough, to the point that I would say the people who say Mercs aren't viable should broaden that statement to say ranged itself isn't viable in PvP, and yet people recommend DPS sorcs (although not lightning) and snipers in PvP, so why is Merc so different since they seem so similar fundamentally? I mean if a stealther opens on a ranged I don't see how it's any more worse if you're a Merc over something else in that situation. I also don't understand why people say Mercs are so terrible 1v1. If it's simply because they're ranged than shouldn't Sorcs and Snipers be bad 1v1 as well?

What makes Mercs so much worse off than Snipers or Sorcs when so much about how they function in PvP is virtually identical?

Thing is, weren't Mercs used to be considered very good DPS in PvP? I seem to recall people complaining about Tracer Missile alot yet I don't seem to recall any huge, crippling nerfs to the class. At least not on the scale that operatives received. What happened? I haven't paid that much attention to Mercs until recently when I decided to roll one. Why are they considered horrible now?

I'm not trying to make a statement that "Mercs are fine". I don't have remotely enough experience to say something like that. I'm just trying to understand why it's so much worse for Mercs than it is for Sorcs/Snipers when they don't seem all that different, at least on a mechanical level. And I've seen some good videos on youtube showcasing Merc DPS in PvP so apparently it works for some people, and I admit I feel like I do better in PvP with my Merc than i ever did on a Sorc.

Sorry for the long post. I only intended to talk about my idea for a jet pack speed boost and then I ended up rambling on about stuff. I do that when I'm tired.

LawfulNeutral's Avatar


LawfulNeutral
12.09.2012 , 05:08 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by Kurugi View Post
Seems one of the main complaints about Mercs in PvP is their lack of survivability/ability to escape as a ranged class. I was just thinking and can't recall seeing this idea floating around: If Powertechs can spec to use their jet packs to charge an opponent like warriors force charge...why can't they give Mercs an ability that uses their jet pack to quickly speed away, like an inquisitor's force speed?

The only complaint I can see about something like this is it homogenizes the classes a bit since another class has something functionally identical and some people hate the idea of all classes feeling "samey".

Honestly though I don't see how much better Sorcs and Snipers are over Merc, on paper at least. They all focus on cast times no matter what spec you go for damage, you're going to have to stand still to get your main abilities off, so I don't see how Mercs are any more worse off in this regard.

Sorcs have bubble and force speed. Snipers have cover that prevents them being charged and entrench to make them CC immune (although makes them immobile since they have to stay in cover to keep the effect). Those are the main things I see other ranged classes having over Mercs, but I don't see how these things equate to Mercs being considered by some to be "unplayable" in PvP. They could definitely use a boost, but I can't see how some people act like playing as one is an effort in futility.

The differences between the ranged classes just don't seem major enough, to the point that I would say the people who say Mercs aren't viable should broaden that statement to say ranged itself isn't viable in PvP, and yet people recommend DPS sorcs (although not lightning) and snipers in PvP, so why is Merc so different since they seem so similar fundamentally? I mean if a stealther opens on a ranged I don't see how it's any more worse if you're a Merc over something else in that situation. I also don't understand why people say Mercs are so terrible 1v1. If it's simply because they're ranged than shouldn't Sorcs and Snipers be bad 1v1 as well?

What makes Mercs so much worse off than Snipers or Sorcs when so much about how they function in PvP is virtually identical?

Thing is, weren't Mercs used to be considered very good DPS in PvP? I seem to recall people complaining about Tracer Missile alot yet I don't seem to recall any huge, crippling nerfs to the class. At least not on the scale that operatives received. What happened? I haven't paid that much attention to Mercs until recently when I decided to roll one. Why are they considered horrible now?

I'm not trying to make a statement that "Mercs are fine". I'm just trying to understand why it's so much worse for Mercs than it is for Sorcs/Snipers when they don't seem all that different, at least on a mechanical level. And I've seen some good videos on youtube showcasing Merc DPS in PvP so apparently it works for some people, and I admit I feel like I do better in PvP with my Merc than i ever did on a Sorc.

Sorry for the long post. I only intended to talk about my idea for a jet pack speed boost and then I ended up rambling on about stuff. I do that when I'm tired.
I don't think Mercs are as bad off as the forums would make you believe either but I can't really agree here. The mechanics of a Sniper and Merc are completely different. The closest comparison I can make it to think of how fast a Sniper goes down when out of cover.... Mercs are like that all the time. We have no CC/Interrupt immunity or ability to effectively get out of melee range once snared/rooted.

As for the Arsenal spec, it has been nerfed multiple times including reduction of Tracer Missile damage and the damage mitigation on Power Barrier. Granted these changes were also accompanied by a couple of small buffs. The class was never terribly overpowered to begin with imo.

Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
12.09.2012 , 05:15 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Kurugi View Post
Honestly though I don't see how much better Sorcs and Snipers are over Merc, on paper at least....Thing is, weren't Mercs used to be considered very good DPS in PvP?...Why are they considered horrible now?
Sorcs dps have a huge utility value in Huttball. Merc dps do not. High end Sorc dps damage maxes out at about 1.2 million in a match. High end Merc dps is about 800k. Thus Sorc > Merc. Sniper dps isn't as high as Sorc dps, but their survivability is much higher. And correspondingly higher than Merc dps. In particular Snipers are the anti-melee class. And that gain that benefit without being any weaker vs. ranged classes than the Merc is. Pareto superiority as it were. Add on top of that, the sniper's higher utility compared to a Merc. The Sniper can dig in and become a sure handed receiver in Huttball. The Merc can't. The Sniper can dig in next to a door, begin capping and be difficult for an enemy melee to stop. A Merc can't. Again Sniper > Merc.

Once upon a time Merc dps were considered quite powerful. But the game has changed. Merc dps did well in an era when the player base didn't understand how to pilot melee dps effectively and didn't understand how to use interrupts. Now that they do, the Merc's effectiveness is reduced. And once you throw in the nerfs to DFA, ElectroDart, the Merc's snare, etc. you have the final result - Merc dps is the worst subclass in the game. No one contests this. Except the devs.

Nightkin's Avatar


Nightkin
12.09.2012 , 11:27 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
Sorcs dps have a huge utility value in Huttball. Merc dps do not. High end Sorc dps damage maxes out at about 1.2 million in a match. High end Merc dps is about 800k. Thus Sorc > Merc. Sniper dps isn't as high as Sorc dps, but their survivability is much higher. And correspondingly higher than Merc dps. In particular Snipers are the anti-melee class. And that gain that benefit without being any weaker vs. ranged classes than the Merc is. Pareto superiority as it were. Add on top of that, the sniper's higher utility compared to a Merc. The Sniper can dig in and become a sure handed receiver in Huttball. The Merc can't. The Sniper can dig in next to a door, begin capping and be difficult for an enemy melee to stop. A Merc can't. Again Sniper > Merc.

Once upon a time Merc dps were considered quite powerful. But the game has changed. Merc dps did well in an era when the player base didn't understand how to pilot melee dps effectively and didn't understand how to use interrupts. Now that they do, the Merc's effectiveness is reduced. And once you throw in the nerfs to DFA, ElectroDart, the Merc's snare, etc. you have the final result - Merc dps is the worst subclass in the game. No one contests this. Except the devs.
100% truth from start to ending, well said!
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Onymus's Avatar


Onymus
12.12.2012 , 01:43 AM | #5
Agree

Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
12.12.2012 , 01:58 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
Once upon a time Merc dps were considered quite powerful. But the game has changed. Merc dps did well in an era when the player base didn't understand how to pilot melee dps effectively and didn't understand how to use interrupts. Now that they do, the Merc's effectiveness is reduced. And once you throw in the nerfs to DFA, ElectroDart, the Merc's snare, etc. you have the final result - Merc dps is the worst subclass in the game. No one contests this. Except the devs.
There was also the tiny, insignificant fact that armour pen stacks for tracer were counted twice and stacked with everyone elses stacks on a target...

...resulting in tracer ALWAYS hitting hard and heatseekers hitting like a truck (because they gained 5% dmg per stack of tracer counted twice, plus everyone elses stacks on that target counted twice).

And when that was fixed they also took off 10% base damage from tracer so suddenly there was a huge damage nerf and time to kill went waaaaay up.


Hell, while they were at it they also nerfed merc pyros who were never bugged by cutting 10% from their powershots.
Hotwired @ Not Good Enough @ ToFN

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
12.12.2012 , 03:18 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by LawfulNeutral View Post
I don't think Mercs are as bad off as the forums would make you believe either but I can't really agree here. The mechanics of a Sniper and Merc are completely different. The closest comparison I can make it to think of how fast a Sniper goes down when out of cover.... Mercs are like that all the time. We have no CC/Interrupt immunity or ability to effectively get out of melee range once snared/rooted.

As for the Arsenal spec, it has been nerfed multiple times including reduction of Tracer Missile damage and the damage mitigation on Power Barrier. Granted these changes were also accompanied by a couple of small buffs. The class was never terribly overpowered to begin with imo.
go play Merc in ranked pvp and tell me merc is fine

maestruljedi's Avatar


maestruljedi
12.12.2012 , 12:28 PM | #8
Dear Kurugi, here's some things you have to understand about swtor pvp.

First of all, it's very movement-centric. Line of sight, range, attacking and defending are primarily based on mobility. A Merc/Commando simply doesn't have this. So, let's take a look at what lack of mobility means for each of the classes you talked about. Obviously, as a ranged class, lack of mobility means melee will catch up to you. That's bad. When they do they will either burst you or CC you. How do you counter each of these situation ? Let's take it from the top:

Sniper - even as a 0/0/0 spec a sniper will have Cover Pulse to knock back his aggressors and Entrench to make him immune to CC. This is huge in the current context. Not only a special fotm class can't charge you (hey, i'm not pointing any fingers, just sayin') but even if they do make it near you through your leg shot and possibly heavy shot (Ambush knockback) or Interrogation Probe or Corrosive Grenade, they will still have to deal with your Cover Pulse and Entrench, possibly Diversion and Ballistic Dampeners also, not to mention Flash Bang and Debilitate.

So the turret-mode Sniper itself is a counter to mobility, and the cover mechanic protects him from being charged and grappled, so what he lacks in mobility makes up in defensive abilities. As far as dps goes, yes, it's a lot like the Merc - mainly subject to LoS because Snipe and Ambush can't be interrupted -- yeah, exactly, they're abilities that can only be used from cover that can't be interrupted while in cover . Even so, a sniper can have plenty of instant casts, from and out of cover, and when talented for it, Snipe can become instant when entering cover AND when activating cover pulse. Engineering and Lethality even have DoTs to alleviate the pains of LoS.

Sorc - the Sorc still isn't the best class out there in pvp, but they're in a better place than Mercs. Firstly, they aren't cast-based unless they go full Lightning. Now, no one goes full Lightning for pvp, because that would put them in the same spot as the Mercs. Sorcs only take the utility of Lightning which are the bubble stun and the overload root. Think about that for a second and realize how much control a sorc can have. They already have Electrocute and Overload, and they can spec for instant whirlwind that can stun for 2 sec, another 3 sec of stun from the bubble breaking and improve their Overload by adding roots to it that last at least 2 sec. That's all in one spec that can include Death Field (instant) and Wrath (proc that makes Crushing Darkness instant).

A full Madness sorc will give up the bubble stun and the overload roots but will have an additional instant dot spell which includes a 2s root. Add to that arsenal (hurr hurr see whut i did thar) their Force Speed and Force Slow and you can get an idea about how complete a class can be regarding control. Their bubble stun counters burst quite effectively, the faster the bubble breaks, the faster the attacker is stunned thus disrupting his cycle. Also the Sorc's DoT based play doesn't much care for LoS once he gets to put the pain on. Let me put it this way, a Sorc may not be able to kill you, but if he wants to run, he can run from you forever. Now, as opposed to the Sniper, the Sorc is very susceptible to charges and grapples, but, happy day, someone at BW gave the Sorc the tools to defend himself via control

Merc - should i even get into it ? After playing a Pyro PT, Pyro Merc simply makes me sick. PT has a guaranteed snare on-demand from a no-cooldown, instant cast Flame Burst, resetting the cooldown of Rail Shot is done also by instant abilities, 10m range doesn't mean anything because that's where the PT is supposed to be... ugh. Stop me. This is about Merc. Okay. Just about everything in the DPS trees is centered around you NOT moving, but without providing you with any defenses. As pyro, you won't ever get to reset the cd of Rail Shot every 6 sec because it can only be reset by abilities with cast/channel. Not in PvP, because every single cast you have is interruptible. Power Shot, Unload, Tracer Missile, Concussive Missile, Fusion Missile, heals, everything. Not only that, but you're pretty dependent on those casts with little else in the way of dealing damage, so LoS is quite a big issue for Mercs.

You have your electro-dart as the 10m CC like everyone else, your 2 sec cast Conc Missile as mezz and your jet boost as a knockback. Also, your Energy Shield. And that's it. No speed increase, no interrupt immunity, no CC immunity. At best, you can use power surge to get off a conc missile and AFTER 5 tracer missiles you can heal yourself instantly for some... uhm, moderate amount. Your energy shield can provide a root removal, you can cure yourself of some dots and effects, but usually you won't have time. You're lacking mobility -- they will catch up to you. You're lacking survivability -- there's no problem in bursting down a Merc. You can be interrupted -- thus you can be denied 40 to 80% of your dps. You can be chain CCed. You're the turret class like the sniper, but without the cover system to protect you from charges and grapples and without the interrupt immunity and the AOE damage reduction. You're like a Lightning Sorc - except you don't have root on your knockback and stun on your bubble, and your bubble has a 2 min cooldown, untalented. You may say "heavy armor", i will say tech/force/elemental/internal damage. You may say "you look awesome !", i will say... true.

I'm not saying exceptional players like Nightkin here can't make a Merc work. They can, but it's not because the Merc being in a good place, it's actually in spite of the situation of the Merc.

Now.. i rambled a bit also, but you're right about one thing -- nobody wants to have the same stuff across the board. Homogenization is bad, even if it leads to better balance, it defeats the purpose of having classes. That being said, i wish Mercs/Commandos would have something like a WoW hunter's Disengage, which is a "reverse" knockback -- the hunter jumps away from the target he's facing for some 10 meters or so. You could call it "Retreat" for BH and "Fall back" for Trooper. It's something no other class has and it would be unique. Also, since i'm in hunter territory, we could do with one of those frost trap/freezing trap thingies... of course, they'd have to be named cryo mine or something but you get the idea.