So I am not sure if there is another thread about this, but I have a lot of things to express, so might just start another one.

Intro

I am mostly a PvE player who enjoys Master Mode operations, so my thoughts are going to be from the perspective of top tier PvE content. Let's look at current tank balance on the live servers.

How many Powertech tanks have cleared 5/5 of Gods of the Machines Master Mode? What about Juggernauts? I am pretty sure those who did at least one boss feel pretty proud of themselves and their team because it is a rather heroic feat.

The main reason for that being that Assassin have Shroud and Force Speed absorption and other tanks have nothing comparable. These two cooldowns are short and overly strong. They have no RNG and, if applied correctly, reduce the amount of damage taken to an extreme extent. They basically address spikes - large hits with the potential of killing tanks who are not at full health.

The overall design is quite clear - Juggernauts and Powertechs are high armor classes with high base damage reduction, they are meant to handle spikes more passively. Assassins are squishy - they have relatively low armor, and rely on precise use of defensive cooldowns. Tanks with long cooldowns won't have enough abilities to counter the regular spikes, and dealing with these regular spikes is the bare minimum to clear the hardest content.

Sure, Juggernauts also have some spike-proof abilities like Saber Reflect, Endure Pain, Mad Dash, etc. but these are not sufficiently reliable! Blade Blitz involves relocation and is often impossible. Saber Reflect also doesn't help in all situations. Endure Pain is great, but it has a one minute cooldown, while Force Speed is 15 seconds and works on absolutely everything except scripted death.

Powertechs are completely unfit to deal with spikes. Their defensives are mostly RNG (shield/defense) and when it comes to big spikes, RNG can easily fail you: Heat Blast absorb - if you dont shield you die; Oil Slick - if you don't parry you die; Explosive Fuel - if you don't parry/resist you die; Energy Shield - while good itself, if it is on cooldown, you die.

Average damage reduction potential

So I did some calculations that exclude RNG stats like Defense, Resist and Shield. Pure DR, average potential of each tank class, their guaranteed durability for the case when damage is dealt in a linear manner, continuously, not discretely. Why did I exclude those stats? Well, they are RNG and I want to examine the situation of the worst possible luck.

These calculations were done from the PTS in full 306 gear.

(40.19 + 6 + 3) * (1 + 15 / 100 * 10 / 45)  * (1 + 25 / 100 * 12 / 150) * (1 + 40 / 100 * 15 / 150) = 53.92
Without Intimidating Roar:
(40.19 + 6 + 3) * (1 + 25 / 100 * 12 / 150) * (1 + 40 / 100 * 15 / 150) = 52.18

40.19 + 5 + 2 + 2 + 9.26 * 15 / 120 + 25 * 15 / 120 = 53.47
Without Power Yield (current 5.0 potential):
40.19 + 5 + 2 + 2 + 25 * 15 / 120 = 52.315

(33.5 + 2 + 2 + 4 + 25 * 15 / 120 + 20 * 6 / 20) * (1 + 60 / 100 * 2.5 / 15) = 55.69
Without Spike set bonus
(33.5 + 2 + 2 + 4 + 25 * 15 / 120) * (1 + 60 / 100 * 2.5 / 15) = 49.08

So yeah I assume you did something like this before you thought that Spike was good to add. But...

Potential of managing burst damage income

You might think: Hey, without Spike the Assassin will fall so far behind! You would be totally right if only tanks were taking same amount of damage constantly. But it doesn't happen. Damage is delivered in spikes and not constantly. Sometimes it is big damage, sometimes there is no damage. Tanks swap as well. Damage taken is a discrete value. Calculating the variance of each tank's damage reduction would be great, but it is easier for me to write a simulation script. Let us take a look at how big damage reduction each tank can reach for just 1 second and how often it is possible.

For big burst survival:
Assassins have a base 41.5% damage reduction and can use Force Speed and Spike each 20 seconds.
41.5 + 20 * (1 + 0.6) = 98.4
Juggernauts have a base 49.19% damage reduction and can use Intimidating Roar, Invincible and Saber Ward each 150 seconds.
49.19 * (1 + 0.15) * (1 + 0.4) * (1 + 0.25) = 98.99
Powertechs have a base 49.19% damage reduction and can use Power Yield and Energy Shield every 120 seconds.
49.19 + 9.26 + 25 = 83.45

This gives an idea of the variance of values, considering that average DR is roughly the same for these classes.

Obviously no sane tank would ever use all cooldowns at once, but the potential still matters. Juggernauts also have Endure Pain, Assassins have Shroud and Stealth out. What do Powertechs have? 1.5 second Translocate cast...eh. Kolto Overload - good, but doesn't help against high burst damage.

Internal/Elemental DR potentials

It is well known that Assassins are well ahead of other tanks on I/E DR. This kind of damage is not dealt in direct tank attacks mostly, but there are obviously many exceptions. Just posting some quick numbers:

(21 + 3) * (1 + 25 / 100 * 12 / 150) * (1 + 40 / 100 * 15 / 150)  = 25.46

19 + 25 * 15 / 120 = 22.125

(24 + 4 + 25 * 15 / 120 + 20 * 6 / 20) * (1 + 60 / 100 * 2.5 / 15) * (1 + 15 / 100 * 12 / 120) = 41.45

Almost double the difference.

Summary

It is very fun to tank when there is some spike damage. It makes you active. I believe all Assassin tanks love timing their Force Speed to the bosses high damage attacks. But why don't you give other tanks something like that? On the average they may look balanced, but Juggernauts and Powertechs just feel obsolete compared to Assassin even on the live server. And the situation is becoming even worse with current state of the PTS.

Of course the classes are different by design. Juggernauts have unique abilities to play with their hitpoints - Endure Pain and Enraged Defense. They can trick death in many ways, not just by not taking damage which seems most obvious.

Powertechs can do their Kolto Overload and some passive healing from AoE damage, but we can see that these do not compare with what the Assassin tanks have.

Avoiding melee/range attacks with Oil Slick or Explosive Fuel is similar to Saber Ward and Deflection on other classes. The Resist part of Explosive Fuel kinda gets in line with Shroud and Endure Pain/Blade Blitz/Saber Reflect, except it's RNG. Energy Shield, Overcharge Saber and Invincible are relatively close potential abilities, and are more or less balanced. However Force Speed and new Spike on Assassins - Powertechs and Juggernauts don't have anything like these tools to handle the situations where healers encounter high pressure and won't be able to heal the tank sufficiently.

Suggestions

So here are a couple of ideas that may not be hard to implement and they won't break any in-game balance. They will improve the experience for the currently underpowered Juggernaut and Powertech tanks.

For Juggernauts:

For Powertechs:

So, what do you say devs? Would you please consider making Juggernaut and Powertech tank depend less on their low shield chance and defense chance and more on some user-input defensive usage? It is really not fun to stick to one class for Gods From The Machine progression, and seeing this happen in next expansion is really disappointing. I promise I won't make any of my friends unsub if you make tank classes fun again

P.S. About Assassins once more, everything is good up to a certain limit. Assassins are interactive enough as it is on live servers. Adding Spike to the active rotation is likely to have this class too complicated and self-centered instead of encounter-centered. A more passive DR buff would be more sensible and satisfying.

Well without a real active mitigation short-cooldown button comparable to Force Speed the pt and jugg tanks are just useless for ops, whatever else compared to sin they bring it is not good enough; seems there were no plans to change it with 6.0 and developers are fine with sin being the only tank worth taking. There is no way that they could possibly not know such an obvious thing about the state of game of course

If it was planned we would already see some propositions on the early stages of pts... a thread with suggestions for active mitigation changes perhaps. Like a tactical that makes Mad Dash immunity last 4 seconds (cause on gcd), roots you in place instead of moving you and reduces its cooldown by 10 seconds... On PT Stealth Scan has a 20 second cooldown, it can get a defensive + damage component and will finally be useful during boss fights, Deadly Onslaught has a 20 second cooldown as well without alacrity.

To sum up ofc the thread is right, If PT/jugg tanks don't get an active mitigation skill, whatever else happens - they will still be pretty much pointless to bring. If they get it - nice, if they don't - well nothing's changed, everyone will just keep playing sins.

Erhm ...... I think you take the wrong approach here ......

Tanks are not balanced indeed. But what needs to be done is remove the dcd on force speed or nerf it hard.

The ability itself is broken like this and way to strong. You can't balance PvE content based on something like this. I mean ..... 60% on a 12s cooldown???

So yes. Tanks are not balanced. But force speed needs to go .....

Next to that I believe that saber reflect needs to be removed or nerfed (from a dps perspective). Its silly that guardian tanks can almost out dps a dps on EC fire brand and stormcaller.

All in all. If you got 3 classes with 1 class majorly outperforming you bring the 3rd class back in line. You don't go over buff the other 2. That will break gameplay even further.

PS: yes I play shadow tank. In fact, I wanted to switch to vanguard tanking again. But then the silliness called force speed as a defensive cooldown got introduced. As I would be silly to reroll vanguard I stayed shadow.

/rant

Tanks are not balanced indeed. But what needs to be done is remove the dcd on force speed or nerf it hard.

The ability itself is broken like this and way to strong. You can't balance PvE content based on something like this. I mean ..... 60% on a 12s cooldown???

Is it really 12s? Maybe my understandings are slightly outdated. Anyways, this active mitigation thing is really something that makes tanking fun. I love it. Maybe Force Speed itself needs a slight redesign to not be so powerful, but personally I would leave it like it is, design top tier content that is impossible to run without smart usage of Force Speed and then give other tanks something like that. It would really make tanking skill threshold high. Not just 'taunt that, keep aggro, use some random dcd when healers tell you, move some targets together, now farm some dps, boi'. Tanking shouldn't be about maximizing dps, tank should be quite busy with his own survival kind of stuff.

Next to that I believe that saber reflect needs to be removed or nerfed (from a dps perspective). Its silly that guardian tanks can almost out dps a dps on EC fire brand and stormcaller.

Saber Reflect became a part of this game in 2.0. EC was released in 1.x. The fact that they work together in a weird manner is really worth forgiving. Saber Reflect is great for PvP and for raids that were designed with Saber Reflect in mind - it should provide a place to use it, but not everywhere and not when it will become too overpowered. I genuinely love Saber Reflect, it is a great feat and I would hate to see it go.

And frankly I really doubt this utility has a chance of being removed if it was on the 1st phase of pts.

Yeah sorry I got back from my vacation not so long ago and couldn't make my deep analysis earlier

remove the dcd on force speed or nerf it hard.

The ability itself is broken like this and way to strong.

Remove entrench, trauma regulators, doubled kolto overload (merc edition), ruthless agressor, force camo. That's strong too.

60% on a 12s cooldown???

it is 15sec cooldown with utility (20 without). And it really matters on some pve content. Like if it was 12sec, You'll get it for every pulverize on Bestia, every Thundering blast on Tyrans etc.

Also let me calculatorate some:

You're sin tank and getting spike damage (let it be Hand of Brontes on burn with some stacks, potential hit is 150k kinetic/energy force damage). 258armorings give sintank 43,45% damage reduction + 4% from depredating volts = 47,45% reduction. So if we're unlucky with shield we take 150000*0,5255=78825 damage. And Force speed absorbs 60% which is 47295 damage (31.5%, not 60 exactly). If shield procced, it absorbs even less.

saber reflect needs to be removed or nerfed (from a dps perspective).

Exactly, remove reflect from juggs/guardians and give it to sorc or sniper. Or make a second reflect for mercs.

Its silly that guardian tanks can almost out dps a dps on EC fire brand and stormcaller.

Will not outdps jugg/merc/operative dps since they have reflect too.

TBH I see that sin tank is overperforming right now, pt is almost useless right now (so rng dependent), jugg way too situational (shines on EC and master&blaster). Hope someday i'll return to jugg tanking but let's see.

So I am not sure if there is another thread about this, but I have a lot of things to express, so might just start another one.

 

Intro

 

I am mostly a PvE player who enjoys Master Mode operations, so my thoughts are going to be from the perspective of top tier PvE content. Let's look at current tank balance on the live servers.

 

How many Powertech tanks have cleared 5/5 of Gods of the Machines Master Mode? What about Juggernauts? I am pretty sure those who did at least one boss feel pretty proud of themselves and their team because it is a rather heroic feat.

 

The main reason for that being that Assassin have Shroud and Force Speed absorption and other tanks have nothing comparable. These two cooldowns are short and overly strong. They have no RNG and, if applied correctly, reduce the amount of damage taken to an extreme extent. They basically address spikes - large hits with the potential of killing tanks who are not at full health.

 

The overall design is quite clear - Juggernauts and Powertechs are high armor classes with high base damage reduction, they are meant to handle spikes more passively. Assassins are squishy - they have relatively low armor, and rely on precise use of defensive cooldowns. Tanks with long cooldowns won't have enough abilities to counter the regular spikes, and dealing with these regular spikes is the bare minimum to clear the hardest content.

 

Sure, Juggernauts also have some spike-proof abilities like Saber Reflect, Endure Pain, Mad Dash, etc. but these are not sufficiently reliable! Blade Blitz involves relocation and is often impossible. Saber Reflect also doesn't help in all situations. Endure Pain is great, but it has a one minute cooldown, while Force Speed is 15 seconds and works on absolutely everything except scripted death.

 

Powertechs are completely unfit to deal with spikes. Their defensives are mostly RNG (shield/defense) and when it comes to big spikes, RNG can easily fail you: Heat Blast absorb - if you dont shield you die; Oil Slick - if you don't parry you die; Explosive Fuel - if you don't parry/resist you die; Energy Shield - while good itself, if it is on cooldown, you die.

 

Average damage reduction potential

 

So I did some calculations that exclude RNG stats like Defense, Resist and Shield. Pure DR, average potential of each tank class, their guaranteed durability for the case when damage is dealt in a linear manner, continuously, not discretely. Why did I exclude those stats? Well, they are RNG and I want to examine the situation of the worst possible luck.

 

These calculations were done from the PTS in full 306 gear.

 

 

Juggernaut kinetic/energy damage reduction: 40.19% Armor rating + 6% Soresu Form + 3% Aegis Assault + 15% multiplicative DR from Intimidating Roar for 10s every 60s, every 45s with utility (it does effect melee/ranged attacks only, so Force/Tech attacks dealing energy/kinetic damage wouldn't be affected, but let's just be forgiving - we are talking about full potential here) + 25% Saber Ward absorb (multiplicative DR) each 150s for 12s + 40% multiplicative DR from Invincible each 150s for 10 seconds (15 with new tactical Jaw Breaker). Altogether it looks like this:

(40.19 + 6 + 3) * (1 + 15 / 100 * 10 / 45)  * (1 + 25 / 100 * 12 / 150) * (1 + 40 / 100 * 15 / 150) = 53.92
Without Intimidating Roar:
(40.19 + 6 + 3) * (1 + 25 / 100 * 12 / 150) * (1 + 40 / 100 * 15 / 150) = 52.18

 

Powertech kinetic/energy damage reduction: 40.19% Armor rating + 5% from Ion Cell + 2% from Power Armor talent + 2% from Ion Screen talent + 25% from Energy Shield for 15s every 120s + new ability Power Yield (let us assume very optimistic approach: as soon as it activates, many attacks income and it gets maximum stacks instantly) 200% Armor Rating increase for 15s (with the Right Price set bonus) every 120s. Testing shows that at max stacks Power Yield gives extra 9.26% damage reduction from Armor Rating even though it's a 200% Armor Rating buff. This is either diminishing returns or a tooltip error.

The formula:

40.19 + 5 + 2 + 2 + 9.26 * 15 / 120 + 25 * 15 / 120 = 53.47
Without Power Yield (current 5.0 potential):
40.19 + 5 + 2 + 2 + 25 * 15 / 120 = 52.315

 

Assassin kinetic/energy damage reduction: 33.5% Armor Rating + 2% Swelling Shadows talent + 2% Shroud of Darkness talent + 4% from perfect Depredating Volts uptime + 25% Overcharged Saber for 15s every 120s + 60% absorb (multiplicative DR) Force Speed for 2.5 seconds every 15 seconds + 20% from Spike for 6s every 20s (Efficient Termination set bonus)

(33.5 + 2 + 2 + 4 + 25 * 15 / 120 + 20 * 6 / 20) * (1 + 60 / 100 * 2.5 / 15) = 55.69
Without Spike set bonus
(33.5 + 2 + 2 + 4 + 25 * 15 / 120) * (1 + 60 / 100 * 2.5 / 15) = 49.08

 

So yeah I assume you did something like this before you thought that Spike was good to add. But...

 

Potential of managing burst damage income

 

You might think: Hey, without Spike the Assassin will fall so far behind! You would be totally right if only tanks were taking same amount of damage constantly. But it doesn't happen. Damage is delivered in spikes and not constantly. Sometimes it is big damage, sometimes there is no damage. Tanks swap as well. Damage taken is a discrete value. Calculating the variance of each tank's damage reduction would be great, but it is easier for me to write a simulation script. Let us take a look at how big damage reduction each tank can reach for just 1 second and how often it is possible.

 

 

For big burst survival:
Assassins have a base 41.5% damage reduction and can use Force Speed and Spike each 20 seconds.
41.5 + 20 * (1 + 0.6) = 98.4
Juggernauts have a base 49.19% damage reduction and can use Intimidating Roar, Invincible and Saber Ward each 150 seconds.
49.19 * (1 + 0.15) * (1 + 0.4) * (1 + 0.25) = 98.99
Powertechs have a base 49.19% damage reduction and can use Power Yield and Energy Shield every 120 seconds.
49.19 + 9.26 + 25 = 83.45

 

This gives an idea of the variance of values, considering that average DR is roughly the same for these classes.

 

Obviously no sane tank would ever use all cooldowns at once, but the potential still matters. Juggernauts also have Endure Pain, Assassins have Shroud and Stealth out. What do Powertechs have? 1.5 second Translocate cast...eh. Kolto Overload - good, but doesn't help against high burst damage.

 

Internal/Elemental DR potentials

 

It is well known that Assassins are well ahead of other tanks on I/E DR. This kind of damage is not dealt in direct tank attacks mostly, but there are obviously many exceptions. Just posting some quick numbers:

 

 

Juggernaut i/e DR: 21% base + 3% Aegis Assault + Saber Ward & Invincible on the same terms. Melee/ranged attacks are quite unlikely to deal internal/elemental damage, so excluding Intimidating Roar here. Calculations:

(21 + 3) * (1 + 25 / 100 * 12 / 150) * (1 + 40 / 100 * 15 / 150)  = 25.46

 

Powertech i/e DR: 19% base + 25% Energy Shield for 15s every 120s

19 + 25 * 15 / 120 = 22.125

 

Assassin i/e DR: 24% base + 4% Depredating Volts + Overcharged Saber + Force Speed + Spike on the same terms + 15% Deflection multiplicative DR (reduces Force and Tech damage done by enemies) for 12s each 120s

(24 + 4 + 25 * 15 / 120 + 20 * 6 / 20) * (1 + 60 / 100 * 2.5 / 15) * (1 + 15 / 100 * 12 / 120) = 41.45

 

Almost double the difference.

 

Summary

 

It is very fun to tank when there is some spike damage. It makes you active. I believe all Assassin tanks love timing their Force Speed to the bosses high damage attacks. But why don't you give other tanks something like that? On the average they may look balanced, but Juggernauts and Powertechs just feel obsolete compared to Assassin even on the live server. And the situation is becoming even worse with current state of the PTS.

 

Of course the classes are different by design. Juggernauts have unique abilities to play with their hitpoints - Endure Pain and Enraged Defense. They can trick death in many ways, not just by not taking damage which seems most obvious.

 

Powertechs can do their Kolto Overload and some passive healing from AoE damage, but we can see that these do not compare with what the Assassin tanks have.

 

Avoiding melee/range attacks with Oil Slick or Explosive Fuel is similar to Saber Ward and Deflection on other classes. The Resist part of Explosive Fuel kinda gets in line with Shroud and Endure Pain/Blade Blitz/Saber Reflect, except it's RNG. Energy Shield, Overcharge Saber and Invincible are relatively close potential abilities, and are more or less balanced. However Force Speed and new Spike on Assassins - Powertechs and Juggernauts don't have anything like these tools to handle the situations where healers encounter high pressure and won't be able to heal the tank sufficiently.

 

Suggestions

 

So here are a couple of ideas that may not be hard to implement and they won't break any in-game balance. They will improve the experience for the currently underpowered Juggernaut and Powertech tanks.

 

For Juggernauts:

 

• Force Scream has granted a small shield since the release of the game. It was never significant. What if you make it meaningful? 40% incoming damage absorption puts Jugg on 68.86% K/E DR (if no other CD is on) while Assassins have 66.4% with Force Speed (these are 1 second potential numbers). This looks close enough. So, for example 40% absorption for 2 seconds every 12 seconds (the current Force Scream cooldown) means average 57.51% K/E DR for Juggernauts instead of the current 53.92%. And to keep average DR in line with Assassins (55.6%) you can increase Force Scream cooldown to 25 seconds. So, just one set bonus or tactical that does this and Juggernauts will have a lot of fun. Alas, this plays around one same mechanic - absorbing incoming damage. But there is something even better.
  
• Juggernauts often survive thanks to Endure Pain. But they don't always have it, it is a 1 minute cooldown ability after all. What if there was a way to reset its cooldown somehow on demand? This new ability, Rabid Furor, looks good enough for it. Let's say, when Rabid Furor is used and it consumes all stacks, each stack consumed also reduces active Endure Pain cooldown by 10s? Since tanks have a 20s duration, two Endure Pains won't overlap, but this reset does provide some help to managing spike damage when the Shield doesn't trigger and Parries don't happen. This doesn't meddle with DR at all but provides quite an interesting way to survive. The tactical that resets Enraged Defense under Endure Pain has to be reworked though to avoid this being overpowered.
  
• There is also Ravage that gives RNG defense/resist chance - making you depend on luck. What if it is reworked a bit in the following spirit: each hit of Ravage applies a stack of Defensive Slashes that last for 10 seconds. Each stack gives 10% DR. Receiving damage consumes 1 of the stacks. This puts Jugg on 58.92 average DR (assuming an incoming attack every GCD), so it doesn't break any balance either*, but provides quite powerful tool to handle spikes.
  

 

* - being slightly ahead of Assassins on K/E DR looks fine since Assassin is way ahead on I/E DR.

 

So yeah, the idea is to have something like Force Speed but not necessarily same (it would be boring anyways to have 3 Force Speed tanks). To what abilities it is attached - I believe you may know better. Like DR from Ravage can be given to Force Scream and Force Scream's absorption can be given to Ravage.

 

Regarding the Endure Pain suggestion - that is really designed for 'on demand extra hit points just when I need them' so it won't work with 'Using ability X lowers cooldown of Endure Pain by Y seconds', it should be something that makes Endure Pain READY on button press.

 

 

For Powertechs:

 

• First of all, please remove the cast time from Translocate. With the new Hotswap tactical it can finally become very useful, but the cast time makes reaction time terrible. What if only with this tactical cast time is removed? This way Powertech can run away from burst in a most hilarious manner:
  "Hello healer, it is impossible to survive here! See for yourself! *translocates* ... *hotswap triggered* Told you, impossible!"
  Although it does turn camera so I assume cast is also there to prepare yourself. What if you split it in two button presses? First time you use Translocate, it is a cast and you mark a friendly target for 5 minutes. Second time you use it you instantly swap positions.
  
• It's a Shieldtech class, right? Why does it not have high Shield Chance like Assassins? How about this class gets something like a 100% Shield Chance every now and then? Heat Blast giving absorption is great, but it is so RNG! What if the shield won't trigger even once? Do I have to use Heat Blast to pray that I shield something and don't die? Or do you want me to use a 2 minute cooldown every time the situation is hectic? I understand that design is to have Assassins with high Shield and Powertechs with high Absorb, but Assassins have both high Shield and Absorb chances, and having a low Shield chance makes Absorb completely unreliable. What if Heat Blast was reworked a bit. For example, reduce Heat Blast's big absorption buff duration by half, but increase the Shield Chance by 50% for the duration. This gives 83.6% DR for high burst and finally lets Powertech to get close to 99% DR in a split second that Assassins and Juggernauts possess. It won't work against I/E damage, so it won't look so overpowered. The average K/E DR will be at 60.3 with this.
  It would actually make the usage of Heat Blast rely on skillful timing.
  
• Oil Slick has looked very weak since 5.0. Its efficiency is less than the Juggernaut's Retaliation. It is also super random because just +15% defense chance doesn't provide too much reliability. What if it retains its current potential but becomes reliable? Like instead of -15% accuracy to affected enemies it provides -15% melee/ranged damage dealt to the affected enemies? It kind of contradicts with whole idea of Riot Gas 'cannot hit what you cannot see', but Oil Slick never even had that idea - you can see everything clearly, but you lose your balance, so it shouldn't be hard to aim as long as you don't move. Apart from the roleplay consistency, this change would remove the RNG part and make it a reliable defensive.
  
• Shoulder Cannon also has a lot of potential. It is off-GCD, meaning high reaction time. The utility that provides healing to it doesn't feel sufficient. I suggest adding something reliable, for example "Shooting a missile from Shoulder Cannon provides a 50% Shield Chance for 3 seconds." This is to replace the Heat Blast suggestion. Shoulder Cannon is not used so often anyway, with its 90s cooldown. If Power Yield were to also reset Shoulder Cannon's cooldown, it would give you a solid on-demand survival tool. This is not as powerful as the Heat Blast suggestion, but it is still rather RNG-proof and doesn't meddle with average DR as much. If applied correctly, the uptime of the increased Shield chance can be 12 seconds. That means a multiplicative ~60% K/E DR from absorbing attacks for 12 seconds every 90 seconds. It puts Powertechs at a 57.75% average K/E DR potential. Close enough to what I believe is called 'balanced'.
  

 

The Powertech suggestions don't quite remove I/E vulnerability from Powertechs, but all classes have to be different, right? If you make Powertechs better than others for K/E, then you should make them worse for I/E. Plus my idea is to let other non-Assassin tanks to be less RNG dependent and helpless during the frequent damage spikes.

 

 

So, what do you say devs? Would you please consider making Juggernaut and Powertech tank depend less on their low shield chance and defense chance and more on some user-input defensive usage? It is really not fun to stick to one class for Gods From The Machine progression, and seeing this happen in next expansion is really disappointing. I promise I won't make any of my friends unsub if you make tank classes fun again

 

P.S. About Assassins once more, everything is good up to a certain limit. Assassins are interactive enough as it is on live servers. Adding Spike to the active rotation is likely to have this class too complicated and self-centered instead of encounter-centered. A more passive DR buff would be more sensible and satisfying.

Sorry, but there never a way for anyone go solo inside the Gods of Machine and master mode is not solo. All advance class characters not strong today and companions lost their modify gear bonus status is why their weak. The game getting close to incompetence advance class characters and companions if remove or prevent abilities. Will not be like Star Wars feeling. How about try use a gear with lower rate or remove your gear. If you win in master mode without any gear and you had a problem. You saying strong advance class and companions needs become incompetence. Hell no!

Just a small reminder that Juggernaut and Powertech still suck. I am pretty sure this isn't high on your priority list, dear developers, but if you at least agree to the base of this thread, I don't think that implementing the changes I've offered will take a lot of programmer's time. I am a software engineer myself and while I do not know how your game engine is exactly designed, I've observed enough of it to deduct that implementing all of the changes shouldn't take more than 1 day of a skilled developer's time.

Maybe you are hiring more keyboard hands Kappa

Shroud has always been far and beyond the absolute best CD for PVE tanking. Nothing comes even close to compare (saber reflect might be closest, but it does not work on everything force/tech).

A major issue in this game is that all relevant dmg is force/tech and usually internal. So most CDs do jack****, and defence stat is hot garbage (y it doesnt increase force/tech defence chance is beyond me).

Now, enter force speed. When i first saw the legenderay sin perk for force speed, i was absolutely bamboozled. How in gods name did that overpowered perk make it into the game? A 15 sec CD with i think the biggest flat DR? Like ***.

Im not opposed to having a short CD defensive that u need to use at the right moment. It adds a skill element/makes tanking more interesting in terms of being able to actively mitigate more dmg, but since jug and PT have nothing comparable they r severely shafted. Its like a sin tank is fighting with turbo lasers, while jug and PT r swinging wooden sticks, lul.

Also I've tested Hotswap utility in many situations and it doesn't really feel sufficient. Quick examples from Hammer Station:

• On boss #1 (sorry I am bad with names) you often get this beam and when stacks are high and hitpoints are low, you find yourself wondering what else is there to use. You see translocate, you equip Hotswap tactical item, you guard your groupie, you Translocate him to make him take stacks for 6 seconds with increased DR, but that does not happen...channeled abilities don't seem to react to this. I understand that they are designed in such a way - for such channels I should have my groupie translocated for the moment boss starts his cast, but then he will keep having that beam for the full channel time, not just for the time he has DR provided from Hotswap. To make it more beneficial for players, you can make it work like Force Cloak on sin - being Translocated makes you un-targetable and breaks all channels/casts on you. Not sure how OP is that and if you are willing to provide PT with such a boost, but the way it exists now is counter intuitive.
  
• Another problem, the aggro. You can't really make a taunt there because taunt in PvP also means reduced damage dealt to all players except the taunter. But if lets say I am a tank and I've engaged a group of adds. I made sure no Ion Gas dot is ticking there, no damage from me exists atm, hence no threat, but I still retain aggro for the moment I cast translocate. I cast Translocate on a guarded target and that target will hold aggro for a split milisecond, after that all adds will swap to the 2nd target on the threat table - most likely dps who is attacking them the most - who does not have 30% dr from Hotswap! If Hotswap is designed for somebody else to tank for 6s, it should provide HUGE threat boost for these 6 seconds of increased DR, not just same DR that Translocate caster had.
  
• And one more. After 6 seconds Translocated players are being swapped back, It is always very unexpected. What if there is some impossible to miss graphical representation of it? For example the orange/blue glow becoming stronger every second? This way players will memorize the brightness of the glow at 6th second and can predict when they get translocated back.
  

A little bit more on my vision on how to put PT in line with sin and even jugg in spike tolerance.

Some kind of anti-spike cooldown should be added and it is better to be tied too one of the already existing abilities. Now there are two questions to discuss:

1. In what way will the spike get countered?

There are many methods. Bullet proof one is like Force Speed - absorb %% of damage taken for a very short time. But it will be boring to repeat same on different classes, I would love to see other tank classes being in line with Assassin without being same as Assassin.

Another option - provide defense/resist chance. Everything below 50% defense/resist chance doesn't feel sufficient to provide an anti-spike tool, everything above is OP and doesn't really fit the lore setting of powertech. Defense is for guardian - he can parry everything with his light saber. Resist is for shadow - a stoic consular who can ignore tech/force factors of the reality for a short period. Powertech is a tech guy (and is supposed to have power, coming from name Kappa yes I know this pun is horrible). High defense/resist doesn't align with his style.

Just splat DR bonus - he already has Energy Shield for that. Active self healing? Guardian with Enure and Focused Defense sort of covered it, plus it is going to require a whole new ability for Powertech which is unwanted, I believe.

Shield is what really comes along. It is called Shield Tech or Shield Specialist. But Shield has a chance to proc. Making it a guaranteed proc is what will work.

I have suggested +50% Shield Chance before assuming that with stats players will reach 50% on their own. It does feel awkward and I don't like it myself. What if instead the mitigation method for PT will provide a guaranteed 100% Shield Chance for the upcoming series of attacks? Either number of stacks that get consumed on taking damage (will be weak against multiple targets) or the buff lasts for a couple of seconds.

This guaranteed attack shielding won't work against internal/elemental damage, but PT is already weakest at it. What if it remains as a class feature? I/E damage should be coming to group mostly, not tk tanks, so it makes PT weaker, but in a solvable manner. To prevent offending PT tanks with such I/E weakness, you may as well make them slightly better at K/E DR - like reaching more than sin or jugg on K/E non-rng potential.

2. What ability should that be?

Best if it is off-GCD ability. Generic options are: Shoulder Cannon, Heat Blast, Hydraulics Override. More sophisticated ones: Vent Heat and Thermal Sensor Override. Useless ones, because they are a DCD already: Energy Shield, Kolto Overload, Explosive Fuel, Power Yield, Oil Slick.

So generic ones involve one that doesn't quite fit - Hydraulics Override, assigning it here will draw a way too noticable parallel to the Force Speed.

Heat Blast has quite short CD and pairing Shield buff with Absorption buff is way too OP. Thats why I've suggested reworking it towards Shield. But still it feels op if turned into guaranteed Shield - because too often. And if you nerf it to prevent being OP, it won't actually save from spikes.

Shoulder Cannon feels very nice, hence I've been suggesting it and I still think it is the best. With current average DR as 53.47% and approximate absorbtion rating being 60% (considering 45% base and average Heat Blast gain which is roughly 15.125%), a 100% Shield Chance from each Shoulder Missile used will grant:

53.47 * (1 + 0.6 * 4 * 1 / 90) = 54.89 average DR if buff duration is 1 second

53.47 * (1 + 0.6 * 4 * 2 / 90) = 56.32 .. 2 seconds

53.47 * (1 + 0.6 * 4 * 2.5 / 90) = 57.03 .. 2.5 seconds

53.47 * (1 + 0.6 * 4 * 3 / 90) = 57.75 .. 3 seconds

And so on. This ccalculation isn't quite accurate due to Shoulder Cannon taking time to charge up. Additionally, the actual usage happens in sync with environment;s heavy damage attacks, so 90s cooldown is unlikely to ever happen and average DR potential is in fact lower.

There is also another on-GCD option which is weird, but you may like it. Harpoon. It comes along with Holotraverse. One can use it when he is Holotraversed, thus far enough from a target. You can also use it in advance most of the time, so being on GCD doesn't hurt. An approach that gives 100% shield with multiple stacks that drop per attack is better for it rather than buff with a short duration, because there is travel time of target to you or you to the target. It may also be abused in 2 boss fights - I am tanking one, but Harpoon another that stands far. Doesn't really come along with reality setting. But still, an idea to consider

Interesting discussion, this is my dribble to keep this bumped:

Spike damage is usually meant to be a "tank-buster" type effect to put healers and their resource pools under pressure. I think all tank classes should be able to avoid these kinds of attacks equally, or they should all be equally vulnerable to them.

I'm not speaking from firsthand experience, as I only ever played PT tank and Jugg through launch until 4.0. Historically, assassins were often considered the most vulnerable to spike damage, so it's funny to see how things have changed over time.

Posted this a while back in some other topic about set bonus/tactical feedback

Tacticals

Juggernaut

Leviathan’s Hide tactical

Crushing blow generates stacks of crushing defense for every enemy it hits, granting 2.5% increased damage reduction per stack for 10 seconds. Stacks up to 8 times

Crushing blow 12s cooldown

Can be used 5 times during a minute

Assassins

Ancient Tome of Wrath tactical

Wither generates Redirected wrath stacks for every enemy it hits, increasing your damage reduction per stack for 10 seconds (its 2.5% per does not include the value)

Wither 10s cooldown

Can be used 6 times a minute and stacking on top of previous stacks if executed correctly

It actually last half second longer cause if you spam wither while it comes of cooldown you will build up on top of the old stacks

Powertechs

Oil Fire tactical

Oil slick makes targets succeptible (typo on PTS?) to firestorm. For each enemy affected by oil slick hit with firestorm, your damage reduction is increased by 2% and cooldown of oil slick is reduced by 1.5 seconds

Oil Slick 1min cooldown Firestorm 18seconds cooldown

Can be used 1 time during a minute or if RNG resets your firestorm at right time you can used twice in a row

Also i would like to add, 2% on fire storm is not flat addition to your damage redaction % as the other two tanks get but instead it is to your armor rating so hitting 3 targets would grant you .60% damage reduction

Bonus question @eric once we are done testing/giving feedback on loot acquisition what is next, will there be balance tests so maybe we can bring 3tanks classes/specs into the same ball park and that damage and healers are comparabel with ech other and there are no huge outliers

Posted this a while back in some other topic about set bonus/tactical feedback

Tacticals

 

Juggernaut

Leviathan’s Hide tactical

Crushing blow generates stacks of crushing defense for every enemy it hits, granting 2.5% increased damage reduction per stack for 10 seconds. Stacks up to 8 times

Crushing blow 12s cooldown

Can be used 5 times during a minute

 

Assassins

Ancient Tome of Wrath tactical

Wither generates Redirected wrath stacks for every enemy it hits, increasing your damage reduction per stack for 10 seconds (its 2.5% per does not include the value)

Wither 10s cooldown

Can be used 6 times a minute and stacking on top of previous stacks if executed correctly

It actually last half second longer cause if you spam wither while it comes of cooldown you will build up on top of the old stacks

 

Powertechs

Oil Fire tactical

Oil slick makes targets succeptible (typo on PTS?) to firestorm. For each enemy affected by oil slick hit with firestorm, your damage reduction is increased by 2% and cooldown of oil slick is reduced by 1.5 seconds

Oil Slick 1min cooldown Firestorm 18seconds cooldown

Can be used 1 time during a minute or if RNG resets your firestorm at right time you can used twice in a row

 

Also i would like to add, 2% on fire storm is not flat addition to your damage redaction % as the other two tanks get but instead it is to your armor rating so hitting 3 targets would grant you .60% damage reduction

 

Bonus question @eric once we are done testing/giving feedback on loot acquisition what is next, will there be balance tests so maybe we can bring 3tanks classes/specs into the same ball park and that damage and healers are comparabel with ech other and there are no huge outliers

I cant even... just how dumb are these guys working on this stuff. Or maybe they just play assassins. Or they have boy/girlfriends who main sin tank. Like ***. This isn't even remotely balanced.

To take this further, crushing blow aoe is way smaller than wither. Hitting stuff with firestorm, don't even get me started. The amount of stupid is getting too much. Wake the hell up people.

A lot of this discussion has been about Tank mitigation, but I think we should also talk about the dps output of tanks.

I've been running Dxun HM a lot over the past weeks with my guild and we've been testing different tank classes. We came to the conclusion that for this instance in particular Assassin + Juggernaut Tank comps are equally as strong or sometimes even stronger than double Assassin. In terms of DtPS and Spike Mitigation Assassin Tanks always beat Juggernaut Tanks, but in terms of dps output Juggernauts make up for it. This is partly because of Saber Reflect and partly because of the new amplifiers. The hard hitting and AoE abilities of Juggernaut Tanks are all Weapon Damage (except Force Scream and Smash), whilst Assassin Tanks have a wider damage distribution on their attacks. If you are curious, we compiled a list of the damage distribution of the different classes here. I can't really speak for Powertech Tanks yet since we didn't test them that much.

From my experience tanks have enough mitigation anyway and we shouldn't just focus on dtps alone when comparing the tank classes with each other. Don't get me wrong though, the spike and overall mitigation of Assassin Tanks definitely is too strong and other tank classes should get something similar to Force Speed.

Sure, Juggernauts also have some spike-proof abilities like Saber Reflect, Endure Pain, Mad Dash, etc. but these are not sufficiently reliable! Blade Blitz involves relocation and is often impossible. Saber Reflect also doesn't help in all situations. Endure Pain is great, but it has a one minute cooldown, while Force Speed is 15 seconds and works on absolutely everything except scripted death.

I think the jugger could be pretty competitive if the mad dash would get a revision for tanking.

1. it should not effect the gcd similar as the force sprint. In many cases if you want to counter e.g. a cast of a mob with mad dash (e.g. the fire burn of this ossus wb) you have to guess when he will cast it to be free of gcd to react at the perfect time. And that really sucks in this fight.

2. the repostitioning of mad dash. Maybe in some cases one could handle this somehow with dashing and directly force charging again but in many bossfights this might be a blocking issue because the boss should stay at the same place.

So...they removed force speed as defensive. Like entirely.

In my opinion that's the worst thing you could have done. Nerf the % (hard) or give it a (slightly) longer cooldown but don't remove it.

The shadow needs this ability, every tank needs something like this.

Tanking is only fun, if you can actually do someting about the incoming damage. If you only have big 2-3min cds, you are just standing there doing nothing most of the time. That's just bad and boring.

So...they removed force speed as defensive. Like entirely.

In my opinion that's the worst thing you could have done. Nerf the % (hard) or give it a (slightly) longer cooldown but don't remove it.

The shadow needs this ability, every tank needs something like this.

Tanking is only fun, if you can actually do someting about the incoming damage. If you only have big 2-3min cds, you are just standing there doing nothing most of the time. That's just bad and boring.

Did they do away with the 60% DR on FS utility? I admit I"m not the shadow tank I am guardian tank, but this is a big thing to shadows in general isn't it?

Yes, it's now 25% for dps specs and 0% for tanks.

I get that something needs to be done because this ability made shadows the best tanks by far.

But just give the 25% to the tank spec as well and give it to jugg and pt too.

There just needs to be something to do, and it should make a difference if you know what you are doing an know the boss abilitys and so on.

I have been a assin tank since launch. Pve sin has always been at the top for tanks but for pvp they have always been at the bottom for tanking unless they have a pocket healer atleast as far as I can remember. I am excluding shank tank from the statement as that just a dps really. You can't nerf the dcds without making sin useless in pvp. Inorder for the class to be useful in one area they have to very strong in another.

How to fix this I have no idea. I have honestly been of the option that removing stealth from the tank sin and making it a defensive was the best option. But truthfully I got nothing.

I have been a assin tank since launch. Pve sin has always been at the top for tanks but for pvp they have always been at the bottom for tanking unless they have a pocket healer atleast as far as I can remember. I am excluding shank tank from the statement as that just a dps really. You can't nerf the dcds without making sin useless in pvp. Inorder for the class to be useful in one area they have to very strong in another.

 

How to fix this I have no idea. I have honestly been of the option that removing stealth from the tank sin and making it a defensive was the best option. But truthfully I got nothing.

well their new setbonus, when ever its actually available to use, will help out in many different ways.........like 1% affectiveness.....

I have a feeling that all tanks are going to hurt going forward in 6.0 outside of the tacticals if they actually work, as I have yet to see them work......

I have been a assin tank since launch. Pve sin has always been at the top for tanks but for pvp they have always been at the bottom for tanking unless they have a pocket healer atleast as far as I can remember. I am excluding shank tank from the statement as that just a dps really. You can't nerf the dcds without making sin useless in pvp. Inorder for the class to be useful in one area they have to very strong in another.

 

How to fix this I have no idea. I have honestly been of the option that removing stealth from the tank sin and making it a defensive was the best option. But truthfully I got nothing.

Speaking of skank tanking why does bioware feel the ridiculous need to implement classwide nerfs across the board when they decide something is specifically out of whack in pvp? Bolster is already being applied in warzones anyway why not alter that? If they decide to suddenly nerf tank damage output for pvp it shouldn't also suddenly make tanks that much weaker in pve as well.

Speaking of skank tanking why does bioware feel the ridiculous need to implement classwide nerfs across the board when they decide something is specifically out of whack in pvp? Bolster is already being applied in warzones anyway why not alter that? If they decide to suddenly nerf tank damage output for pvp it shouldn't also suddenly make tanks that much weaker in pve as well.

Honestly I have never understood why they have never used bolter to fix the shank tank problem. The only thing you would have to do is make it check for spec, then check for the maximum allow dps stats on tank gear if it exceeds that limmit a reduction in stats is applied to ensure the spec is not overpowered.

Honestly I have never understood why they have never used bolter to fix the shank tank problem. The only thing you would have to do is make it check for spec, then check for the maximum allow dps stats on tank gear if it exceeds that limmit a reduction in stats is applied to ensure the spec is not overpowered.

Who other than the devs gives anyone the right to trash talk about peoples choice to gear their characters.

Some of the best tanks run more crit power and endurance..... just let it go...