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[PvE] Imbalanced DPS between DDs is laughable


Xyleya

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DPS between the DD classes is definitely not balanced.

Just did a KP nightmare mode and got the following.

 

Foreman Crusher

Sentinel: 1115dps

Sage: 803dps

Commando: 777dps

 

Karagga

Sentinel: 1075dps

Sage: 792dps

Commando: 784dps

 

As far as I know, Karagga and Foreman Crusher are not dummies.

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DPS between the DD classes is definitely not balanced.

Just did a KP nightmare mode and got the following.

 

Foreman Crusher

Sentinel: 1115dps

Sage: 803dps

Commando: 777dps

 

Karagga

Sentinel: 1075dps

Sage: 792dps

Commando: 784dps

 

As far as I know, Karagga and Foreman Crusher are not dummies.

 

So, you just pick the two fights where ranged has less up-time on boss because they have to keep avoiding things while melee can stay on DPS all the time?

 

Foreman Crusher

-Ranged needs to keep avoiding rocks, lowering their overall DPS. Rocks never hit melee.

 

Karagga

-Ranged needs to pay attention and run out of gravity wells while melee just needs maintain position on Karagga's side to not get hit by flames or rockets.

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Damage logs are the raw damage numbers. There are literally zero situations where truly accurate data can be generated without a player at the keyboard in-game. We use these real results to try and generate theoretical numbers, not the other way around. Don't insult the efforts of other people that actually put in work towards theorycrafting by replacing effort with rhetoric then pretending your claims carry any weight.

 

Play all of the classes yourself and come again.

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Play all of the classes yourself and come again.

 

Strange how you quoted my post but failed to address a single word in it. And by strange I mean quite predictable given your inability to defend any argument you've put forward in this entire thread.

 

What's really embarrassing about this thread is that it is absolute fact that the average DPS of individual ACs is not "balanced" nor was that ever in contention; individual encounter mechanics alone would not allow it as such even if Bioware had the best game designers in the entire industry (which I think SWTOR has shown they very clearly do not). But you've done everything in your power with every post in this thread to prove to us that you couldn't take part in an informed discussion about that very topic at all. You've dodged every opportunity to show anyone even a single discrepancy with a shred of evidence, while comically attempting to posture as if speaking from a place of authority. That you're arguing this topic from ignorance is transparent like good glass.

 

You're right about one thing at least - that if these players want their evidence, they should go find it for themselves or from actual knowledgeable players that can show them real data. It would seem you have nothing to offer them.

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So, you just pick the two fights where ranged has less up-time on boss because they have to keep avoiding things while melee can stay on DPS all the time?

 

Foreman Crusher

-Ranged needs to keep avoiding rocks, lowering their overall DPS. Rocks never hit melee.

 

Karagga

-Ranged needs to pay attention and run out of gravity wells while melee just needs maintain position on Karagga's side to not get hit by flames or rockets.

 

Really? As far as I could see, Foreman Crusher, only 1 guy has to move out of the rocks. That's not a huge change. Foreman Crusher changes aggro after frenzy, so the melee dps has to chase him down, while the ranged continue to dps. The argument has always been that ranged can continue to dps while melee has to do the chasing.

 

Karagga, if you are constantly being interrupted in dps because of the gravity wells, you haven't spaced yourselves out enough and I suggest you tell your ops group to be more spatially aware or the healers have to heal more for nothing. Ranged dps has the advantage in Karagga because they really can move a lot less.

 

And as for Bonethrasher.

Sentinel: 1444dps

Sage: 1011dps

Commando: 971dps and 959dps.

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Play all of the classes yourself and come again.

 

I'm sorry but this post and your previous ones where you said the same thing is just insulting.

 

Why make a thread where the only responses you want are from people who have played the same classes as you? Obviously people are not going to play every class you have played so they can come back and make a post. And people's opinions are not invalidated just because they don't have every class.

 

So far all you have done is flamed everyone who hasn't completely agreed with you or done as you said, which is ridiculous to do on a forum.

 

Why are you such an angry and unreasonable person?

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It may be that Marauders are getting a boost on the training dummy....but still pretty clear that they are also way out-performing everyone in actual raids.

 

Our attempts at Firebrand/Storm caller our Sentinel was out DPSing me (commando DPS) by about 20%. I had some loss since I was dodging lightning and yellow reticle but it wasn't anywhere near that much. Toth/Zorn had about the same result. I even have better gear than him (I'm full rakata and he is missing I think 3 pieces).

 

Also my attempts on the training dummy is that right now, my shadow (full columi geared) can out DPS my commando (Full rakata) by about 15-20%.

 

Stupid thing is that without the nerfs that they made to commandos they would be right there with the other DPS classes. My grav round has been around 40% of my total damage, and demo round about 20%. So put back grav to +10% (about 4% damage increase) and demo round increase by 25% that was due to a bug they just decided to fix (about 5% damage increase) and they look pretty good to me.

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Thank you for the first good response.

 

To the others. Damage-logs and all that stuff don't show anything actually, as they don't show your rotations or how good you do your rotations, that's why I'm not posting any and simply compare the raw damage-numbers.

 

If you want, you can use a calculator and calculate the optimal DPS for the classes and then you'll end up with pretty much the same numbers I've posted +-10%. Even before the damage-logs I've used tools to calculate damage and they're allmost 100% accurate to the now available damage-logs.

 

So, we're not talking player-skills etc here, but raw numbers and they simply are totally screwed up between the classes.

Like the person above stated, then every DD should do the same amount, with a little more DPS for the melees ofc, but not 30+%.

 

I disagree that Melee need more "Raw number" damage. With the current state of things, most skills used by melee characters are instant and useable while mobile. Ranged classes almost exclusively use Cast-time/Channel abilities. In any fights where boss mechanics cause the ranged to have to move (either through knockbacks or area targetted damage), they are inherently losing more DPS than melee players. Not only do they usually have to move ASAP (and not "Just finish a cast first") to avoid damage, but then they've got to start up all the casts when they've found a new safe spot.

 

And yes, there are some fights that make melee move more than ranged. There's also some fights where ranged have a harder time. I play a Marauder and a Sage, and I know that I certainly feel it harder as a sage dropping casts to move than when I play a marauder, step out-of-range to avoid an attack and then leap right back in. The only time being in Melee is an issue is where they have targetted AoE's at melee range while having several (3 or 4) Melee DPSers in a raid, and with a couple of notable exceptions, they're not hard to work around either.

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Even if all the data in the world showed the damage that melee does is greater than range (most cases is true) you cant raid with all melee... You need ranged dps like you need healers and tanks. So if anything comparing ranged to melee dps is a moot point. Compare ranged to other ranged.
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Even if all the data in the world showed the damage that melee does is greater than range (most cases is true) you cant raid with all melee... You need ranged dps like you need healers and tanks. So if anything comparing ranged to melee dps is a moot point. Compare ranged to other ranged.

 

Yeah, that's what I'm doing actually, if you read carefully.

 

The whole question is: Why does the Sniper less damage then the Sorc and only very little more then the Merc? Snipers should do more DPS then Sorc and Merc, due to their unability to do anything else.

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Yeah, that's what I'm doing actually, if you read carefully.

 

The whole question is: Why does the Sniper less damage then the Sorc and only very little more then the Merc? Snipers should do more DPS then Sorc and Merc, due to their unability to do anything else.

 

Than you are just going to have groups stacking snipers because they do more damage. If anything I'd say give snipers a little more utility in an ability that increases group damage or something.

 

All DPS classes should be doing about the same DPS IMO.

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Again more people who can't play Snipers.

 

I'm sorry but good and well played Snipers don't get out damaged. They are right at the top with Marauders.

 

We currently run 2 marauders and 2 Snipers in our 16 m operations group.

 

Annihilation specc'd Marauders and Marksman Snipers both push 1600 dps. Just the other night in Nightmare KP the Sniper was over 1750 DPS. The Marauder was about 1660.

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OP....this thread is a waste of time. Your narrow viewpoint fueled by your ego is obfuscating real data and numbers.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=414342

 

This same post, in this SAME forum, has people playing the classes you say you play, and they are doing MORE DPS then you. go read the post...they even posted screenies too...yeah, I know. Proof...vastly overrated idea. Someone as skilled as you doesn't need silly things like screenies while the rest of us lowly beings (like the ones doing more damage then you in that thread...) we need to stick with screenies to prove were so lowly...

 

the only thing i got from your thread is that one, your are Egotistical and woefully ignorant, and at worst, a poor troll. You actually believe that you have the "real data" on the class? go compare your results with the snipers and Ops in that thread plz.

 

And...you forgot a class or two in your repertoire of "playing all the classes". By your own definition, you don't know what your talking about because YOU haven't played all the classes. even not counting the Other AC's, you completely left Juggernaut off the list...and I've seen jugg parses that top all your other parses save your maurader.

 

and the other numbers I've seen for the EXACT SAME AC AND SPEC are higher then yours by a few hundred at least. even with just a 200 DPS difference..that's over 10% difference in the same classes, the same specs...no offense, but when 2 different people get different results from the same spec to that degree, it's usually a skill variance. This isn't a bad thing, but you need to be honest enough to admit that you may not know all the classes you play well enough to establish a solid baseline of comparison for every one.

 

Are you numbers horrible? No, though I've seen better...but your mentality that YOU know all the classes is pretty unrealistic. At best you should be finding other people who are posting data and comparing numbers. But you didn't even try to do that. you posted your own, labeled them as gospel, and asked people to discuss. Well, you got a discussion, your numbers DO NOT REFLECT A REALISTIC EXAMPLE OF CLASS CAPABILITY MEASURED THROUGH ACCEPTED AND REALISTIC STANDARDS. You simply do not know enough about all the classes to qualify as informed. there's your discussion.

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I'm really tired of posting these numbers... But I have to in this case, because the numbers posted about KP tell me that your raid is bad and your point of view is wrong.

 

http://files1.guildlaunch.net/guild/library/250136/sorc_meters.png

 

I won every fight except for Karagga, where a marauder beat me. The marauders were both close to me on every single fight. Your sages are bad bro.

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Thank you for the first good response.

 

To the others. Damage-logs and all that stuff don't show anything actually, as they don't show your rotations or how good you do your rotations, that's why I'm not posting any and simply compare the raw damage-numbers.

 

If you want, you can use a calculator and calculate the optimal DPS for the classes and then you'll end up with pretty much the same numbers I've posted +-10%. Even before the damage-logs I've used tools to calculate damage and they're allmost 100% accurate to the now available damage-logs.

 

So, we're not talking player-skills etc here, but raw numbers and they simply are totally screwed up between the classes.

Like the person above stated, then every DD should do the same amount, with a little more DPS for the melees ofc, but not 30+%.

 

I like that you quoted the person and then responded to absolutely nothing he said. And he's 100% right. Damage potential has to be as close as possible between all dps specs. If someone does use their utility in the form of healing or cc'ing mid fight they're paying for it in dps already.

 

That said, balance should not be done on a dummy. Balance should be done with all raid buffs and debuffs factored in. Your data includes none of that.

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And he's 100% right. Damage potential has to be as close as possible between all dps specs.

 

Why not just make every class the same class then? In fact, don't even give us gear options at all, we're all required to wear the same gear and use the same abilities.

 

Classes should all be better at different things. I'm fine that snipers and marauders are the BEST single target DPS, since none of the fights are strictly single target DPS.

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Why not just make every class the same class then? In fact, don't even give us gear options at all, we're all required to wear the same gear and use the same abilities.

 

Classes should all be better at different things. I'm fine that snipers and marauders are the BEST single target DPS, since none of the fights are strictly single target DPS.

 

I fail to see how having everyone have approximately teh same damage output means they're all identical. Everyone offers different utility outside their direct damage too. Sentinels/Snipers happen to offer amazing group buffs (opwide damage resist and damage boosts). There is no reason to take anything other than them to ops for dps.

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I fail to see how having everyone have approximately teh same damage output means they're all identical. Everyone offers different utility outside their direct damage too. Sentinels/Snipers happen to offer amazing group buffs (opwide damage resist and damage boosts). There is no reason to take anything other than them to ops for dps.

 

Yes there is, lol.

Our sorcs smoke our snipers on every fight due to mechanics, and beat out our marauders as well ( but the marauders are close). You just can only have so many sorcs because they don't bring the armor debuff. Juggs do almost identical DPS to marauders, and do better AOE and have better survivability but no lust.

 

On the other hand, there's no reason not to replace all my mercs with snipers.

 

And operative/assassin DPS, there's no reason to bring those.

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Why not just make every class the same class then? In fact, don't even give us gear options at all, we're all required to wear the same gear and use the same abilities.

 

Classes should all be better at different things. I'm fine that snipers and marauders are the BEST single target DPS, since none of the fights are strictly single target DPS.

 

All dps specs fill the exact same role, they just do it in different ways. The only people that support that type of design are the people playing the classes that are "supposed to do teh bestest dps!" Why would anyone intentionally chose a dps spec that is worse than others? Player skill and the nuances of each particular spec are going to impact fights in such a way that one is going to be better than others in any given scenario, but there should not be a universally better class/spec for dps. Your argument for having everyone have the same gear and abilities is silly.

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Your rationalisation for 'pure' Dps classes is flawed. you suggest that because they don't have another role they should outperform in terms of raw damage dealt. Infact the Two pure Dps classes provide more utility than any other 'hybrid' damage specs to pretty much every encounter. Abilities such as the sniper shield and the runspead/damage buff offered by mararuders are sought after, not to mention they often have better cc and survivability cooldowns then their competition.
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DPS between the DD classes is definitely not balanced.

Just did a KP nightmare mode and got the following.

 

Foreman Crusher

Sentinel: 1115dps

Sage: 803dps

Commando: 777dps

 

Karagga

Sentinel: 1075dps

Sage: 792dps

Commando: 784dps

 

As far as I know, Karagga and Foreman Crusher are not dummies.

 

 

It's odd you happened to pick two fights where ranged classes are required to stop casting and move to avoid range only mechanics.

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It's odd you happened to pick two fights where ranged classes are required to stop casting and move to avoid range only mechanics.

 

You're so silly. Everyone knows melee classes need to do more damage than range because they have less uptime! It's preposterous to think that ranged have to move about as much as melee do! I mean, what other self-entitled bs reason can we come up with to justify melee doing higher dps?

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It's odd you happened to pick two fights where ranged classes are required to stop casting and move to avoid range only mechanics.

 

Meh, almost all of our ranged did 1600-1900 dps on foreman crusher last week, we beat the melee. Killing the adds is an advantage because they die so fast and they're basically just fluff damage.

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Meh, almost all of our ranged did 1600-1900 dps on foreman crusher last week, we beat the melee. Killing the adds is an advantage because they die so fast and they're basically just fluff damage.

 

Death from above, explosive dart, prototype flame thrower, I do as much add dmg as any 'ranged'

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Death from above, explosive dart, prototype flame thrower, I do as much add dmg as any 'ranged'

 

I don't understand what you're trying to say. All I was saying is that the fight he picked was equally bad in my opinion cos their best dps was only as good a dps as our tank.

 

From my experience powertech dps aren't "bad" so to speak, but they can't light a candle to sorc, marauder, or sniper dps.

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