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The Empire are the good guys?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
The Empire are the good guys?

OldVengeance's Avatar


OldVengeance
02.20.2019 , 04:11 PM | #71
I really don't know why people keep bringing up Acina as is she's some kind of good Sith.

She's extremely pro-slavery, apparently takes pleasure in spilling Republic blood, and she finds the Dreadseeds to be inspired technology and was full of praise for Lord Fullminiss for designing them. If she's still Empress, she's also the one who strikes the first blow in the coming war on Ossus.

Darth Marr and Lana aren't exactly the nicest folks either.

Darth Marr's preferred method of interrogation is torture. We saw him threaten to cut out the tongue of a subordinate for delivering bad news out of turn. And he sent Darth Lachris to brutalize the people of Balmorra.

She's less sinister than most Sith, but even Lana can encourage some pretty callous behavior in the name of pragmatism.

Trauglodyte's Avatar


Trauglodyte
02.20.2019 , 04:15 PM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by ApollosNight View Post
Frankly, it depends on what you mean by "good." If you're asking, "Does the Empire adhere to the Light Side of the Force?" then the answer is a categorical 'no.' If, on the other hand, you're asking, "Does the Empire adhere to a certain morality that is defined as 'good,'" then the question is really what standard of morality you're using.

You have the concept of racal superiority that the Empire was founded with. The Sith as a race and as a Force-sensitive class were viewed as superior to everyone else. Notice: were. It's clear that they began to revise this after Malgus' failed bid for the New Empire.

You have the dedication to the Dark Side of the Force. For some, this is an automatic BADGUYSEVILOMGSTOPTHEM. But that would, again, be ignoring the changes brought about under Empress Acina and the multitude of Sith Lords who were not sniveling, psychotic murderers (i.e. Lana Beniko, Darth Marr, etc.). The concept of "Light = Good, Dark = Bad" is just overly simplified.

You have the dedication of a people to a history and a culture that spans thousands of years with rulers who have developed a civilization and philosophy that values emotions, as opposed to the Jedi who suppress them. Only one of those keeps a person in touch with their natural personhood; the other seeks to suppress it.

The Empire is much less "BAD GUYZ" than Pubs like to paint it
Well, as I mentioned before, the Empire is the more bad side. When a group of people conquers and enslaves other people, that is a gross wrong. Continuing the process just makes them more wrong.

I think the question is more this: Is the Republic or Empire more or less bad, since the conflict began?

I brought up WW2, earlier in this. Once the war began and nations joined in, the argument of who was or wasn't bad went out of the window because each side made decisions and took actions that were clearly in the wrong. Yet, history tells us that Germany, early Russia, Italy, and Japan were well within the wrong. When you start killing innocent civilians, the moral high grounds becomes a sink hole and the high horse is now dead.

Putting it in SWTOR context, a good example is the Barrager quest on Balmorra for the Pubs. The Barrager essentailly eats the planet's energy stores, turning it into a dead rock. BUT, it can wipe out an entire fleet in orbit. Major Nadine wants that weapon, both because of the deterrent that it represents and what it could achieve, if used. That is not a morally light choice or desire. Ergo, both sides make dark choices for the purposes of winning battles, conflicts, and ultimately the war. The body count and collateral damage simply justifies the end result and will be subsequently forgotten, since the victors write history.

PS> The "winner's" version of history is, in itself, an evil because it casually and selectively hides the dark truths that allowed them to win.
To die is simply to end the cycle of pain!

OldVengeance's Avatar


OldVengeance
02.20.2019 , 04:27 PM | #73
It's worth noting that if you keep the Barrager, you get a letter thanking you and mentioning that the prototype that was build was just the first iteration, and they believe they can create a better version without all the destructive side effects.

Xilizhra's Avatar


Xilizhra
02.20.2019 , 04:41 PM | #74
Quote: Originally Posted by OldVengeance View Post
I really don't know why people keep bringing up Acina as is she's some kind of good Sith.

She's extremely pro-slavery, apparently takes pleasure in spilling Republic blood, and she finds the Dreadseeds to be inspired technology and was full of praise for Lord Fullminiss for designing them. If she's still Empress, she's also the one who strikes the first blow in the coming war on Ossus.

Darth Marr and Lana aren't exactly the nicest folks either.

Darth Marr's preferred method of interrogation is torture. We saw him threaten to cut out the tongue of a subordinate for delivering bad news out of turn. And he sent Darth Lachris to brutalize the people of Balmorra.

She's less sinister than most Sith, but even Lana can encourage some pretty callous behavior in the name of pragmatism.
"Extremely" pro-slavery? I'll need a citation on that, since the Empire is now manumitting non-Force-using slaves, which it previously didn't. I'd also say that the war didn't begin on Ossus, but rather Iokath, where the Republic struck first.

As for Darth Marr, the incident you mention, IIRC, was for producing unnecessary comm chatter (while his flagship was being torn apart), not bringing bad news (also, it was Darth Baras who made the tongue-cutting threat). I'll give you Darth Lachris, though.

OldVengeance's Avatar


OldVengeance
02.20.2019 , 06:15 PM | #75
Well, if you tell her to make Lorman a slave she calls it "a truly excellent idea." And later she sends you an email calling him "a powerful reminder that the weak need chains."

Darth Marr's exact line in "The Hunt" was "I did not ask for your assessment. Speak only when you have an update, or you will lose your tongue."

The Republic didn't strike first on Iokath, the Republic and Empire both got the data about the Superweapon at the same time. But the conflict on Iokath doesn't seem to be framed as the start of the current war, Ossus is.

So I would assume Iokath was more like a limited scale war in a similar vein as the Chapter 2 conflicts on Taris and Balmorra.

Xilizhra's Avatar


Xilizhra
02.20.2019 , 06:28 PM | #76
Quote: Originally Posted by OldVengeance View Post
Well, if you tell her to make Lorman a slave she calls it "a truly excellent idea." And later she sends you an email calling him "a powerful reminder that the weak need chains."

Darth Marr's exact line in "The Hunt" was "I did not ask for your assessment. Speak only when you have an update, or you will lose your tongue."

The Republic didn't strike first on Iokath, the Republic and Empire both got the data about the Superweapon at the same time. But the conflict on Iokath doesn't seem to be framed as the start of the current war, Ossus is.

So I would assume Iokath was more like a limited scale war in a similar vein as the Chapter 2 conflicts on Taris and Balmorra.
I would characterize Lorman's weakness as treachery, personally, so it might not fall into the same category as other forms of slavery. But that's speculative, admittedly.

I do think that Iokath was a seminal event. It didn't restart the war because the Alliance could still clamp down on it at the time, but that ended after Nathema.

irrevelant's Avatar


irrevelant
02.22.2019 , 05:45 AM | #77
With a good ruler the Empire could become good guys. Maybe even better, than the Republic. The problem is, that somehow pretty much every sith are evil in story. The only exception is Lana who seems to be more like neutral. She doesn't care for the small people, or innocents, and always looks for the greater picture. Sacrifice half of the city to give better chance for the galaxy. Or eliminate the mandalorians to ensure, that they pose no threat later for the cause. However i don't think, that even her would make the changes, that i find as primary problem in the empire.

1. Slavery. It's evil. I'm fanatic egalitarian in Stellaris, and i prefer that style to the point, that even machines with true AI should have rights. Your freedom is granted, because you got the intellect, and knowledge to have it. And will be taken if you use these against the laws.

2. The Sith training. It's cruel, sometimes luck based, and many dies. I don't mind through training, but sending all those people to death is over the limit. Not to mention, that it encourages conflict with other sith.

3. Racism. Now that's something Lana would probably change, and seems changing. Malgus is perfect example as he wanted to erase racism for his empire.

4. Sith rights. Specifically the fact, that sith can do anything with anyone. The only barrier is killing the other sith who is stronger, but beside that no one cares, if a sith kills, or tortures their own man. Or even other sith's man. Except that other sith who may, or may not punish the subject.

Republic has problems, but it tries to solve it. The only problem, that they don't even try to solve is the jedi training. And while joining the jedi order is not a matter of choice in most cases, but staying in it is. Officially if a jedi don't like being part of the order, then (s)he can just leave. Of course the rest of the order will be suspicious about it, but beside being watched no action will be taken unless it's required.

The republic is generally good, but there are bad guys in it. The Empire got evil leadership, and i rarely found any imperial officer who are good guys. One of the revanite on Dromund Kass seemed to be good person, but that's all i can remember suddenly. The rest are all megalovaniac selfish evil. The only other good imperial was met on republic storyline on Hoth. Though i haven't finished any Imperial storyline yet, but played until the end of Hoth recently with my Inquisitor.

Rebamcfan's Avatar


Rebamcfan
02.23.2019 , 12:07 PM | #78
Quote: Originally Posted by OldVengeance View Post
Well, if you tell her to make Lorman a slave she calls it "a truly excellent idea." And later she sends you an email calling him "a powerful reminder that the weak need chains."
I took that option first time ever, on my fully light-sided Consular (well, not so fully light--sided anymore after that I guess), just because I wanted to see how the option would be. I have to say, while my Consular got dark side points, I found it somehow satisfying to give Lorman such punishment after everything he had done.
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"To defeat an enemy you must know them. Not simply their battle tactics, but their history, philosophy, arts." -Grand Admiral Thrawn

BellumEstBellum's Avatar


BellumEstBellum
02.24.2019 , 09:41 PM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by Ardrossan View Post
If there is a nuanced depiction of the Sith or the Empire out there somewhere, that might suggest they're the good guys and the Republic is the bad guys, or at least that the lines are blurred, I have to tell you that this is not the story you're looking for. For Imperials I might claim Pellaeon's Empire Remnant, and for the Sith I might claim Lumiya's Sith, but it is certainly not the cartoonish, moustache-twirling Empire of this game. It's bizarre to see players who genuinely can't tell the difference. Without getting into irl politics, that strikes me as a bad sign, lol.
This lol. Every time I see someone writing, "Well, it depends how you define good..." on this thread, I facepalm so hard I get a nose bleed. They are defending evil through relativism. And their arguments are made as though they absorbed cliches through their fingers from their keyboard, then spat them out in the forum.

ApollosNight's Avatar


ApollosNight
02.25.2019 , 12:44 PM | #80
Quote: Originally Posted by BellumEstBellum View Post
This lol. Every time I see someone writing, "Well, it depends how you define good..." on this thread, I facepalm so hard I get a nose bleed. They are defending evil through relativism. And their arguments are made as though they absorbed cliches through their fingers from their keyboard, then spat them out in the forum.
Asking for a person's definition of good and claiming that this is defending the Empire through relativism is a massive category error. It would be relativism if the person claimed "this is good or evil for/to me." It's not relativism to ask, however, what is meant by "good" as this is a term loaded with (in real life) theological/philosophical commitments and meanings which many people reject.

Personally, I play as a Sith who is disgusted by some of the Imperial tactics is loyal to it because its his home and he wants to improve it from the inside.