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Make Recruit Gear a Requirement to Queue


NDiggy

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If you get to 50 and cant afford recruit gear you played the game wrong. I was able to buy my set and sets for my DPS companion and my Healer companion and still had 2 million left over.

 

It would be a stretch to say he played it "wrong", perhaps he really liked the beer in the cantina...nothing wrong with that at all. He gets to decide what is right/wrong. His credits, his toon, his accounts. Kudos to you for having so much money though. My toon is a broke drunkard.

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Do you not think I made sure all things were equal. You didn't even analyze the photos well enough to see I took great care to have the same buffs on...

 

Another excuse ("oh its not 100% accurate all the time")? WHAT!! Sounds like the begining of enlightenment to me.

Spells? What spells? Heals? Damage (did you know the other player's stats or if any DEBUFFS were present)? I am sure you have photos to prove this right?

 

 

Go look at the photos again. Your tool tip changes if you get a player buffs. 3132 is the minimum, after all Player buffs (Knight/Troop/Smugg)/ETC) were applied outside of the WZ. Now forward 1min, those same buffs still present as evident by the tool tip reading (or just look at the damn pictures above my HP bar) and I hit what i hit. In fact, I had the SAME player buffs(ALL 4 OF THEM) and my RAK WP STIM in ALL OF THE PHOTOS.

 

Lets be real here. Your "example" is a 28HP difference. My formula versus yours is 165HP and the order of magnitude is WAY smaller. ("2978 in the tooltip, but it peaked at 3006" versus "2236 or 2357") That is a WAY higher fluctuation...

 

Here I will give you a clue how I will prove being "in-combat" don't matter and ONLY the green on your Nameplate kicks in PvP stats:

What will my max heal with the trauma buff on while out of combat?

 

You are really not making sense. My peak at 3006 was a peak of the skill, uneffected by anything but the buffs on me, which changes the tooltip on the spell. The 2236 or 2357 has nothing to do with it, its just 2 different calculations, one being right, the other wrong, so there is no fluctuation to talk about. Your formula is wrong, you are stuck thinking about expertise effecting bonus damage in your character pane which it doesnt, so you cant calculate the final damage/healing that way.

 

Its also no excuse that it can peak, its FACT because it does peak above its intended value i.e the value stated in the tooltip as the highest possible heal. You are drifting away from the topic and you sound more than mildly angry and upset.

 

I proved you in my example earlier, that in full pvp gear you get no expertise healing bonus while out of combat, flagged, unflagged or in WZs. Keep claiming it, it doesnt change the fact that it doesnt.

 

I have no clue what your max trauma heal will be. Because I dont know your max value of the spell.

 

spellmax*0.7 = x*1.0752 = y Or whatever your expertise was.

 

Read this one more time once and for all what I have said to you several times earlier and you might get what is wrong with your calculations.

 

Expertise works just like any other ability that buffs/debuffs final end damage/healing. It works like Taunt, Deadly Throw, Trauma or any talent that increases an abilites damage by x%. Spells that effect and alter bonus damage in your character pane are Unnatural/Force Might. Read it over and over.

Edited by SneakyErvin
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Well said and at least your response was a bit more mature and less of "You suck! Get out of my game!". So while I disagree with what you said, I still respect it.

 

Still, I maintain my stance. When I turn level 50, I am not going to purposely not play Warzones until I get enough credits to buy the recruit gear, no! If I just hit 50 and I decide that I want to play some warzones, I will do so. I am not going to stop myself because I don't want to offend others because I am "under geared". Why should I please these people? I play the game to please myself and that means playing what I want when I want.

 

Going back to what I said before, just cause you are anyone else was breaking bank once they hit 50 doesn't mean everyone else has the same situation. You don't know what that person may have or may not have been doing with their credits while leveling. With all these money sinks [Legacy comes to mind], it is really possible to hit L50 and have like only 60K in the bank. I know, it seems crazy but everyone's situation is unique. Maybe they spent their credits buying rare items [Thing the White crystals pre 1.2], or top of the line items [such as speeders]. Maybe they have gone broke running crew skill missions and haven't gotten tot he point where they are making a profit [it takes money to make money]. I can go on and on but my point is, not everyone is set it a bunch of credits once they hit 50.

 

Second, because they aren't set with credits, telling someone to just do dailies doesn't make any sense either. Again, this person has the right to play the game the way they want to play. Perhaps this person does not want to do dailies, maybe they just complete the game's story and decided that they are now bored with all that questing and does not want to have anything to do with PvE anymore until new content comes. Perhaps they want to grind Warzones to make credits [i know, it is crazy, but people might like this option]. So while they are playing WZs in green/orange gear, they might be taking that money earned and applying it to buy their first piece of Recruit gear and so on.

 

Not everyone who does not have full gear are people purposely trying to ruin the experience. Remember, we all start off at the bottom and must build ourselves back up. How we do that is unique to all of us. You might like to make your money through dailies, I might like to make my money through GTN, and the next person might like to make their money by grinding WZs. You might not agree with it, but you at least have to respect it.

 

I'll clarify what I dislike about low-gear toons PVPing: seeing them for more than about a day or two of straight play. The people who come on to try it without preparing beforehand I can understand, maybe they never paid attention to PVP and only discovered it way later at 50, or maybe they're only comfortable with the class by that point (some people take awhile for that to happen). It's when they just are badly geared and flaunt it as a part of some can't tell me what to do attitude over a long period of time that they become irritating. Until then, I'll try to do things like taking one of them with me to cap left on Civil War and leaving them to guard it and call incoming and so on. In Voidstar there's not a lot I can do for them because it degenerates into a melee and having no/little expertise post 1.2 means you're just wheat for the scythe in those situations.

 

Back before 1.2 I started saving comms for the 6 champ bags way later than a lot of people - around 40. I didn't have a ton of credits when I hit 50 (400k at the best) either, but I did hold back on the additional speeders until I had lots of moneymaking dallies at 50. Even browsing the GTN for nice mods on my oranges I saved up a decent amount, and I was leveling my crafting skills to boot. That was back when repairs cost more, and I was a tank for all the questing PVEing my group was doing. Throughout all the bags I opened (probably 30 or so), I only ever got 3 champ pieces. This is why I find the recruit gear system to be unbelievably better despite the price. Having no expertise was not fun at all, you just got swatted aside as a minor irritant. That's been multiplied by a decent amount post 1.2. I don't see how you could be having fun enduring that, because however bad it is for the more geared people on your team to have lesser geared people as teammates, at least they aren't being shown the respawn room as fast as you are.

 

As for current issues, here's an idea. You have expertise less than the total amount of expertise recruit set gives you, the game equips you (for the duration of the WZ only) with a recruit set with the spec being whatever you have the most talent points in, keeping any single piece of gear that has more expertise in it than the equivalent recruit piece. If at any point in the WZ your expertise drops below recruit set levels, you are kicked and a deserter debuff applied. That keeps people from trolling the system and also provides for a minimum level of competitiveness in our expertise-is-your-new-god WZs, while still leaving it up to the player to buy the credit-based PVP gear for open world PVP or whatever. If you're over leveled like I was (50 around the midpoint of Quesh or so), expertise gear helps with the random 50s who come around trying to gank people in their WZ gear. If you don't care and just want to PVP once in awhile then alright, but you won't have dudes with 20% damage increase applying that full 20% on you at least.

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Whether you carry me or not is not my problem. Maybe you should take a videogame [glorified toy] just a little less seriously and hopefully that should solve your problems.

 

Again, pay my monthly subscription and I'll play the game the way you like. Until then, go sit down somewhere. I bought the game and I pay for it every month. I have the RIGHT to play the way I want to play and I am not going to stress myself out or alter my gameplay just to satisfy someone online that I never met or plan on ever meeting.

 

Doing 2 hours of dailies nets you the cost for the complete Recruit set, why are you complaining again? Go buy the Recruit set so the 7 other players don't carry you so much bub.

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Would you heal and OP in tank gear? Tank an OP in healer gear? DPS an OP in level 30 greens? Why would you not wear the gear made for pvp to run WZs in? At least in PvE people have the option not to group with you, in pvp the team does not have a choice, even if they run with a pre-made of 4 people. Its just simple consideration for other people and the time and money they put into this game that they want to enjoy.
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You are really not making sense. My peak at 3006 was a peak of the skill, uneffected by anything but the buffs on me, which changes the tooltip on the spell. The 2236 or 2357 has nothing to do with it, its just 2 different calculations, one being right, the other wrong, so there is no fluctuation to talk about. Your formula is wrong, you are stuck thinking about expertise effecting bonus damage in your character pane which it doesnt, so you cant calculate the final damage/healing that way.

 

Its also no excuse that it can peak, its FACT because it does peak above its intended value i.e the value stated in the tooltip as the highest possible heal. You are drifting away from the topic and you sound more than mildly angry and upset.

 

I proved you in my example earlier, that in full pvp gear you get no expertise healing bonus while out of combat, flagged, unflagged or in WZs. Keep claiming it, it doesnt change the fact that it doesnt.

 

I have no clue what your max trauma heal will be. Because I dont know your max value of the spell.

 

spellmax*0.7 = x*1.0752 = y Or whatever your expertise was.

 

Read this one more time once and for all what I have said to you several times earlier and you might get what is wrong with your calculations.

 

Expertise works just like any other ability that buffs/debuffs final end damage/healing. It works like Taunt, Deadly Throw, Trauma or any talent that increases an abilites damage by x%. Spells that effect and alter bonus damage in your character pane are Unnatural/Force Might. Read it over and over.

 

 

Yes those affect bonus damage, which also affects the tool tip value. Either way the point your making is that there is a difference between a player buff and expertise, and there is NO evidence that it does. In fact, my evidence and calcs point out that it is the opposite and acts exactly like a player buff. In the next set, I will make sure to pull up my player stats, so there is no question what the numbers are...

 

SHOWN ON ALL PICS

SKILL: DELIVERANCE

THE MIN: 3132

THE MAX: 3274

EXP= 7.52% Healing Bonus

 

All shown at fleet, spawns on WZ, and actually on battlegrounds in WZ.

 

Now please calc my max heal while trama is active and I am out of combat (since you propose exp don't factor in in this scenario)..... NVM..

 

Your calc is 2292. I'll beat that number by 2-7%, which would mean expertise is active ALL the time as long as your PvP flag is toggled.. Why 2-7%? Look at this picture again, and when I exceed your stated max, I will expain this one...

http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh590/ldogg1579/?action=view&current=SWTORVSJOKE.png

 

Also I missed the part where you "proved" expertise don't affect you out of combat? Can you rehash that please?

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I see some people in here that really dont understand how much of an improvement recruit gear is compared to any non-expertise gear.

 

One guy earlier said he had 700k left after buying everything at 50 except his speeder 3 training. And he didnt want to spend half that on a recruit set that lowered his primary stat.

 

This IMO shows the lack of knowledge he has when it comes to expertise vs no expertise. I dont mean to be rude, but it does.

 

You might think losing main stats being alot and that it will make you preform worse. And the answer to that is a big NO. Most recruit pieces will make you lose your main stat, but many pieces will increase power, surge and so on along with expertise.

 

Losing 150-200 of your main stat does not equal the damage benefit expertise gives you in pvp, which with a full recruit gear is 17-18% if I remember right. Then around 14-15% damage reduction aswell as 10% extra healing. There is no way that your loss of the main stat will have that impact. Also adding in power and surge you will be ahead of your fresh 50 pve gear, unless you mod it perfectly in which case you lose even more credits. The recruit gear costs what? 250k creds?

 

That was my post to which you are referring, and no I do not have a lack of knowledge regarding the difference between expertise and non-expertise. I was trying to make 2 points.

 

1. Recruit gear is useless for PVE, because ALL it has is expertise, besides that it is worse than most lvl 47-49 blue gear. Saying it adds power and surge, so does PVE gear. I know, when you mouse over a piece of gear at a vendor, it will show you all of that... Trust me, the recruit gear was inferior to what I already had.

 

2. I dinged 50 on Sunday, and had full BM by Thursday. People keep saying Recruit gear is not expensive. "Expensive" is a matter of opinion, and IMO 330k for armor you are only going to wear for THREE DAYS, and ONLY in PVP, is too expensive.

Edited by criminalheretic
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It would be a stretch to say he played it "wrong", perhaps he really liked the beer in the cantina...nothing wrong with that at all. He gets to decide what is right/wrong. His credits, his toon, his accounts. Kudos to you for having so much money though. My toon is a broke drunkard.

 

By the same token, you can make enough credits to buy the recruit gear in 1-3 days of casual play running solo content. That fact kind of makes you a bit of a douche if you show up in warzones wearing leveling gear. It's really not asking an unreasonable thing of another player to take the time to get the recruit gear first. It's not like it takes two weeks or something, and it's how I did things with my new main.

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Would you heal and OP in tank gear? Tank an OP in healer gear? DPS an OP in level 30 greens? Why would you not wear the gear made for pvp to run WZs in? At least in PvE people have the option not to group with you, in pvp the team does not have a choice, even if they run with a pre-made of 4 people. Its just simple consideration for other people and the time and money they put into this game that they want to enjoy.

 

If I had to spend 300k on the healer gear, I could only wear it on that OP, and it was only going to last me 3 days? Yes.

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Yes those affect bonus damage, which also affects the tool tip value. Either way the point your making is that there is a difference between a player buff and expertise, and there is NO evidence that it does. In fact, my evidence and calcs point out that it is the opposite and acts exactly like a player buff. In the next set, I will make sure to pull up my player stats, so there is no question what the numbers are...

 

SHOWN ON ALL PICS

SKILL: DELIVERANCE

THE MIN: 3132

THE MAX: 3274

EXP= 7.52% Healing Bonus

 

All shown at fleet, spawns on WZ, and actually on battlegrounds in WZ.

 

Now please calc my max heal while trama is active and I am out of combat (since you propose exp don't factor in in this scenario)..... NVM..

 

Your calc is 2292. I'll beat that number by 2-7%, which would mean expertise is active ALL the time as long as your PvP flag is toggled.. Why 2-7%? Look at this picture again, and when I exceed your stated max, I will expain this one...

http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh590/ldogg1579/?action=view&current=SWTORVSJOKE.png

 

Also I missed the part where you "proved" expertise don't affect you out of combat? Can you rehash that please?

 

Sorry, but you are just babbling and throwing out numbers. The link you posted states an avarage heal, between your min and max as stated on the tooltip. The tooltip doesnt change in a WZ or when you engage PvP because your damage/healing is exactly the same.

 

2292 would be the number during trauma effect without expertise. But aslong as the trauma effect is active I think it counts you as in PvP so you get the 7.52% bonus, not 2-7%. You either get it or not. In which case its 2463.

 

1. You can have two friends, player A is fighting an enemy, player B isnt.

2. You heal both of them, player A recieves a 30% debuff through trauma, you negate 7.5% of that from your expertise, but player B who wasnt in combat is healed for 100% effect not 107.5%.

 

I made a perfectly fine comparison for you that I did early today over a total of 75 casts.

 

25 flagged on fleet

25 unflagged on fleet

25 in WZ spawn area

 

They were all the same, they all peaked around the same value, give or take a point or two. You also said at the top of this latest post.

 

Yes those affect bonus damage, which also affects the tool tip value. Either way the point your making is that there is a difference between a player buff and expertise, and there is NO evidence that it does. In fact, my evidence and calcs point out that it is the opposite and acts exactly like a player buff. In the next set, I will make sure to pull up my player stats, so there is no question what the numbers are...

 

Which ones effect bonus damage? All or might or what do you mean yes, they work in different ways. Might effects bonus damage and your tooltip value. The others dont. There is a big difference between might and expertise, Might states specifically that it effects ranged/melee/tech/force bonus damage/healing. Expertise has a completely different wording, just like taunt, trauma, deadly throw etc.

 

Flagging isnt enough to trigger expertise, learn it and stop arguing. You dont even check the posts I provide you with tests. You read what you like, just like the links to the sites you provided with the "4% difference between old and new BM expertise", when it was infact 7% units and roughly 30-33% increase.

Edited by SneakyErvin
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That was my post to which you are referring, and no I do not have a lack of knowledge regarding the difference between expertise and non-expertise. I was trying to make 2 points.

 

1. Recruit gear is useless for PVE, because ALL it has is expertise, besides that it is worse than most lvl 47-49 blue gear. Saying it adds power and surge, so does PVE gear. I know, when you mouse over a piece of gear at a vendor, it will show you all of that... Trust me, the recruit gear was inferior to what I already had.

 

2. I dinged 50 on Sunday, and had full BM by Thursday. People keep saying Recruit gear is not expensive. "Expensive" is a matter of opinion, and IMO 330k for armor you are only going to wear for THREE DAYS, and ONLY in PVP, is too expensive.

 

Actually it wildly depends on class when it comes to the stats. Unless you want to spend several 100k upgrading your pve oranges you can just buy select pieces of recruit gear to run hard modes with. Recruit set+WH weapon is a very good start for both pvp and pve. Sure some classes doesnt have the luxory of good stat distribution, but some do. It also depends how fast you grind PvP, it lasts longer for some. Plus credits are expendable, you have absolutely no use for them in this game after hitting 50, except wasting it on stuff that doesnt really matter.

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Flagging isnt enough to trigger expertise, learn it and stop arguing. You dont even check the posts I provide you with tests. You read what you like, just like the links to the sites you provided with the "4% difference between old and new BM expertise", when it was infact 7% units and roughly 30-33% increase.

 

 

Flagging isnt enough to trigger expertise, learn it and stop arguing.

 

Yes... I do check the links I post because I know EXACTLY WHAT THEY SAY...."EXPERTISE IS KING", but if you look at the provided equations (which is the only REAL value of those links), see what expertise does to your main stat/sec/end. Your right... Let’s stop arguing over when expertise triggers, because in really doesn’t matter when it is on and when it is off. This will be a long read(and I am sorry about that), but if you actually care SO much about people being “undergeared/not enough EXP” in PvP, then read it ALL. I am also sorry for the delay RL and mother’s day were priorities…

The heart of our debate and this thread is about:

"Does Expertise mean anything in PvP?" &

"Should people be FORCED to wear recruit gear or higher

Your Stance: YES & YES

Recruit~=Rakata(Maybe).....Because expertise means SO much, no way BM~=RAKATA

Not only do I deal 16.74% more damage to you while you wear PvE gear, but you deal 14.34% less to me aswell. Making the gap HUGE between PvP recruit gear and pretty much any PvE gear.

edit: And this comparison is between recruit gear and pve gear, the gap gets even bigger between BM gear and pve gear where stats are even higher. But where the gap is much smaller between recruit and BM. Just a few odd % difference while its up around 20%, 17% and 13% BM vs PvE gear.

Maybe if it was recruit vs rakata, maybe.

 

 

My Stance: TIER FOR TIER? NO & NO...

BM~=Rakata, so expertise don't mean squat, if you have the PvE equiv.

Assuming main stats are the same? Yes.

Decreased main stats? Not so much..

As I posted earlier. I can make some proper PvP example of those too by just adding expertise and trauma.

With 12% expertise:

2980 becomes 2444, 3000 becomes 2460.

Without expertise:

2980 becomes 2086 and 3000 becomes 2100.

I would be dumb to argue you on this, it looks 100% accurate, but……

You used the same base numbers (2980/3000) for each of your calcs, and that is where our signals are getting crossed. There is NO way to get a 2980/3000 base in both calcs with the same tier gear. IT’S IMPOSSIBLE to get 12% EXP without sacrificing that 2980/3000 number (assuming this is the PvE baseline).

 

Let’s assume the trauma buff/expertise is on, since it is the only time we agree that both are active. Since you are opposed to the links of the screens I will explain each one in detail (even though they are still there if you/anyone wants to look). I am limiting this examination to a two-piece swap. BM for RAKATA, which you say is a significant decrease in PvP effectiveness. Here are the global buffs on ALL SCREENSHOTS: FORCE VALOR(+5%MAIN), FORCE MIGHT(+5%DB), RAKATA RESOLVE STIM.

 

Here I am with a RAK Stalker Bracer, and RAK Force-Master Relay Earpiece and Deliverance TT rating.

http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh590/ldogg1579/?action=view&current=SWTORRAKATAEAR1.png

http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh590/ldogg1579/?action=view&current=SWTORRAKATABRACER1.png

http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh590/ldogg1579/?action=view&current=SWTORRAKDELTT1.png

EXP=638(7.52% Heal Buff)

Deliverance on tooltip = 3132-3274

In about 2 hours of WZs……

Best heal hit: 2534(but I have a ton more screens with other values).

http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh590/ldogg1579/?action=view&current=SWTORRAKHEAL.png

 

Here I am with a BM Stalker Bracer, and BM Force-Master Relay Earpiece and corresponding Deliverance TT rating..

http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh590/ldogg1579/?action=view&current=SWTORBMEAR1.png

http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh590/ldogg1579/?action=view&current=SWTORBMBRACER1.png

http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh590/ldogg1579/?action=view&current=SWTORBMDELTT1.png

EXP=787(8.98% Heal Buff)

Deliverance on tooltip = 3112-3254

In about 2 hours of WZs……

Best heal hit: 2570(twice, but I have a ton more screens with other values).

http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh590/ldogg1579/?action=view&current=SWTORBMHEAL.png

 

Let’s look at it from a couple of different levels.

 

Fundamental Level 1:

BM Pieces (Deliverance on tooltip = 3112-3254): *.7898= 2458-2571 (*screenshot shows I almost hit the max according to the calc here and also shows that the tooltip is about right because I never hit anything outside of this range).

 

RAK Pieces (Deliverance on tooltip = 3132-3274): *.7752= 2428-2538 (*screenshot shows I almost hit the max according to the calc here and also shows that the tooltip is about right because I never hit anything outside of this range).

 

I swapped two, same tier pieces, and “gained” +1.46% EXP healing bonus, but lost 5.7 in Bonus Healing. Yes, there was a difference, but again, the MAXIMUM swing will be 32HP in this two-piece swap (as evident by the calc’d trauma debuff/EXP buffs and the tooltip values, which I think we agree on), so instead of the “1.46% gain,” it’s lower (more like 1.3% gain).

BM(MAX)= RAK(MAX)*1.013

 

Does the gap increase the more pieces you add? Even on a linear scale (remember this when we talk on the abstract level), where that type of exchange happens (~1:1), if I changed ALL 14 pieces, we are talking about a 224HP swing on healing. This is not game-changing.

 

If healing is this way, so is damage. The contributions are different, but the same tradeoff is there. It has a “higher percentage gain than healing”(+2.63% EXP damage), but it ALSO removes a corresponding amount of damage bonus. So on my BEST attack, this is the highest potential you can have (I’ll post the screens if you like).

BM Pieces (Force in Balance on tooltip = 1772 -1836): *1.164= 2063-2137

RAK Pieces (Force in Balance on tooltip = 1787-1851): *1.1377= 2033-2106

Again a ~32HP at a 2EA piece, tier for tier exchange (224HP@ 14 pieces). This is why I said…………………….

Do you want 16% increase on 600 bonus damage or 700 bonus damage?
Because really that’s what it boils down to….

 

Same thing for mitigation. I lost 310HP for 1.98% increase in mitigation. If you play my BM toon , and I play my RAK toon, the 1.98% mitgation on my highest potential is 42HP difference TO you. It’s hard to quantify this, but I just don’t see how that change is worth 310HP. Especially when you introduce this…

Here let’s assume trooper buff:

5% increase PvE gear= 12,474HP

5% increase PvPgear = 10,773HP

Now instead of 1620K difference; we are @ 1701K difference....

SAME THING FOR SMUGG BUFF, SAME THING FOR KNIGHT BUFF, ETC, ETC...

Assuming the trooper buff was on in my pics:

BM END: 1535

RAK END:1568

Now that HP loss is 330 for the same mitigation value you gain. Now factor in PvP medpaks operate on a 35% of your max HP. What is mitigation really doing for you?

 

Fundamental Level 2:

Do you want 16% increase on 600 bonus damage or 700 bonus damage? That does not even account for contributions of main stat to crit rating.

BM Crit Rating: 24.58%

RAK Crit Rating: 24.78%

It's small, but this is just a two piece trade off. The 14 piece tradeoff will make this gap bigger, but in FAVOR of PvE gear… I am fairly confident EXP does not contribute to Crit rating. Even if you increase your output though expertise, the burst chance decrease in PvP does make it a tougher decision to choose (myself, I choose PvE/Crit rating because battles don’t last long enough for that small increase to matter (among other reasons to be named later)). In PvP, “BURST IS KING”…

 

Abstract Level 1:

As I stated in the fundamental levels, the difference is minor, but all of that assumes a 1 for 1 tradeoff. You also have to understand the more pieces you add, the less in contributes to all three PvP expertise stats (a simplified analysis: 1:1, 1:1.05, 1: 1.11, 1:1.22, 1:1.48, etc). This is what the “diminishing returns” was describing. It’s called exponential decay of a log(expertise) function. There are three equations that have exponential decay, expertise is one of them. While it changed in 1.2, I have shown it still means little, which the ONLY logical conclusion is Pre-1.2 PvP gear was a NERF, compared to its PvE breathren, tier for tier.

 

Abstract Level 2:

From a BiS standpoint? I guess that’s for another thread…

And I agree too, but that is under the premise that they were adding in EXP to the mod/enh slots and not changing the base stats on anything else... So.... I now use the PvP mod/enhancements, so let’s use me versus you as an example:

 

Pre-1.2-I use RAK, you use BM

RAK MODS = BM MODS

RAK ENH = BM ENH

RAK ARMOR= BM ARMOR(????)

.....so the mods and enhancements are a wash, but still have 240HP and +18 main stat more per piece.

 

Post 1.2= I use RAK with BM MODS/ENH, you got a "buff" of 50EXP (if you kept your original mods, which was a bad joke for players like me).

RAK MODS = BM MODS

RAK ENH = BM ENH

RAK ARMOR= BM ARMOR(????)

.....so the mods and enhancements are a wash, but still have 240HP and +18 main stat more per piece.

So in the end, it STILL boils down to the damn armor slot. I still roll my rakata gear and enabled me not to HAVE to change gear to PvP. I have showed on all three levels its a nerf... that why I said they should have kept the armor slot locked and buffed it to +100EXP. If some at BW said expertise is better than PvE gear, yes it is, but since we can remove those same pieces, the root difference is still negligible for the loss of HP you have to take...

Edited by L-RANDLE
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You are doing test with 1.5% units difference in expertise.

 

That doesnt show or prove anything.

 

Its when you have full gear vs full gear, a difference between 10% and 0%.

 

That 1.5% difference cant show anything viable at all, because the healing range on the spell itself is bigger than that, so for all we know the difference is purely random. You need to test with 0 and max expertise to get any viable info.

 

But your 1.5% is not a viable comparison.

 

edit: The only thing your screenshots prove is that you have no clue how to properly test things.

 

Also, the DR for crit, surge and all that starts much sooner than expertise, so you cant count on them diminishing at the same rate, which leave expertise gaining much more than the others at higher ratings.

Edited by SneakyErvin
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It's also disrespectful to think that people who don't buy the recruit gear are actually trying to hurt their teammates... I'm not going to lie, when I hit 50 I had barely 80k left after buying my skills for my rotation... Recruit gear is pretty expensive for a freshly hit 50. And keep in mind even if you waited 30 minutes to an hour to days, that person has waited JUST AS LONG AS YOU, and not only that, you were in the exact same boat as he or she was.

 

I was *never* in the same boat as them! When I hit 50 I had a champ bag in the bank, and 1k merc/wz comms to buy 5 more bags. Back then your first 50 didn't even HAVE the luxury of recruit gear. Now if I had the option of recruit gear and my BM MH as soon as I hit 50? You bet your bottom dollar I would've gathrered the money etc. from queues prior to hitting 50 so I was sure to have enough when I finally did hit 50.

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You are doing test with 1.5% units difference in expertise.

 

That doesnt show or prove anything.

 

Its when you have full gear vs full gear, a difference between 10% and 0%.

 

That 1.5% difference cant show anything viable at all, because the healing range on the spell itself is bigger than that, so for all we know the difference is purely random. You need to test with 0 and max expertise to get any viable info.

 

But your 1.5% is not a viable comparison.

 

How is it not viable? Over all 14 pieces? If I did it over 1000 pieces the trade off would still be the same +EXP - DMG BONUS, and that still assumes a 1 for one trade. Not only is that true, but as I stated previously....

You don't understand exponential decay. The "BUFF" was slightly changing a multiplier to the log function and adding EXP to the mod and enh slots on BM and higher/adding more EXP to Cent gear(called recruit now), BUT EXPONENTIAL DECAY IS STILL THERE POST 1.2. The more you stack the less it benefits (i.e. In 1.2, 450EXP= 10%, but 900EXP= 18% (instead of 20%; for example))

I can lead you to water, but I can't make you drink...

Do you want me to swap all 14? I THOUGHT these two pieces would be better simply because they are not moddable and ONLY have values controlled by BW.

 

edit: The only thing your screenshots prove is that you have no clue how to properly test things.

 

Also, the DR for crit, surge and all that starts much sooner than expertise, so you cant count on them diminishing at the same rate, which leave expertise gaining much more than the others at higher ratings

 

Please tell me how you would test it? You say I haven't posted anything of substance, but you haven't posted anything... Cmon, show me where I screwed up. I'll admit I'm wrong if you show me ANYTHING that directly refutes my statements, but you can't because you don't have a sage @50:rolleyes: and you don't have the PvE equivs:rolleyes:..... I have given you all the info I can on this.... So now I will just give you the last word and move on. Ready? Go....

Edited by L-RANDLE
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They could either not have the money or they do have the recruit gear and you just don't realize how low the HP is for it. Recruit gear is pretty useless. I constantly see people complain about 12-13k HP but that's full recruit gear HP.

 

I agree. I have yet to buy any recruit gear. Most of our games are huttball. I've maxed my medal count out more often than not using crafted pve 49 purples.

 

I would rather spend the cash on other things than throwaway gear. If you could buy the best gear in the game, I would consider it. But its so simple to get BM gear that its a waste of money.

 

Now I do think its funny when people come in with greens and blues that lvl 40 or lower. I kid you not, I saw a guy in lvl 50 pvp with a lvl 20 relic once.

 

I am editing this post to say a few more things.

 

Expertise will not help you do the following things:

 

o In huttball, when the ball carrier is a leaper, expertise will not prevent him from force leaping to you as you stand on the ledge.

 

o At any time, your cc/mezzzes/interrupts are not mitigated by expertise.

 

o Expertise does not help you jump the vents, or auto-pass for you..

 

o Expertise does not prevent you from being pushed into the fire, the pit or off the catwalk.

 

o Expertise does not enable you to detect stealth better. Likewise it does not make you more steatlhy.

 

o Expertise will not pop your cooldowns or relics. Nor will it tell you its time to get the buffs on the bg. It will not automagically cause you to use the ledges or catwalks.

 

o Expertise will not enable you to jump into a crowd of oppoents and stand in their aoe.

 

o Expertise will not change your keyboard turning into mouse turning.

 

o Expertise will not magically make you target the ball carrier or the healer with him. It will also not automatically cause you to seperate the tank using guard from his pal in some way.

 

I could go on and on.

Edited by netskink
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I was *never* in the same boat as them! When I hit 50 I had a champ bag in the bank, and 1k merc/wz comms to buy 5 more bags. Back then your first 50 didn't even HAVE the luxury of recruit gear. Now if I had the option of recruit gear and my BM MH as soon as I hit 50? You bet your bottom dollar I would've gathrered the money etc. from queues prior to hitting 50 so I was sure to have enough when I finally did hit 50.

 

Exactly. Why make things harder on yourself.

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Now I do think its funny when people come in with greens and blues that lvl 40 or lower. I kid you not, I saw a guy in lvl 50 pvp with a lvl 20 relic once.

I just saw the same thing yesterday. The guy had a Gladiator title, had the BM chestpiece and the rest were mid 20s to 40 gear mostly greens. I asked him why he didn't bother to get the recruit gear or at least the level 40 stuff pvp gear and he said it didn't matter since all of his gear was boosted to level 49 anyway. To think of all those wasted warzone coms makes me sick when he said he had just dinged 50 and bought the chestpiece.

 

I just wish that the recruit stuff sold back at a decent price to the vendor compared to how much it costs. And for those that "can't afford" it I say quit being lazy and do some dailies. Within 2 days (3 hours of playtime) you can have the money for the set and you won't be so worthless. You won't be as good as people in full WH but you shouldn't be either considering they've put the time and effort into getting that gear. I wish they had had a starter set to purchase when I first started.

Edited by Navorski
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I agree. I have yet to buy any recruit gear. Most of our games are huttball. I've maxed my medal count out more often than not using crafted pve 49 purples.

 

I would rather spend the cash on other things than throwaway gear. If you could buy the best gear in the game, I would consider it. But its so simple to get BM gear that its a waste of money.

 

Now I do think its funny when people come in with greens and blues that lvl 40 or lower. I kid you not, I saw a guy in lvl 50 pvp with a lvl 20 relic once.

 

I am editing this post to say a few more things.

 

Expertise will not help you do the following things:

 

o In huttball, when the ball carrier is a leaper, expertise will not prevent him from force leaping to you as you stand on the ledge.

 

o At any time, your cc/mezzzes/interrupts are not mitigated by expertise.

 

o Expertise does not help you jump the vents, or auto-pass for you..

 

o Expertise does not prevent you from being pushed into the fire, the pit or off the catwalk.

 

o Expertise does not enable you to detect stealth better. Likewise it does not make you more steatlhy.

 

o Expertise will not pop your cooldowns or relics. Nor will it tell you its time to get the buffs on the bg. It will not automagically cause you to use the ledges or catwalks.

 

o Expertise will not enable you to jump into a crowd of oppoents and stand in their aoe.

 

o Expertise will not change your keyboard turning into mouse turning.

 

o Expertise will not magically make you target the ball carrier or the healer with him. It will also not automatically cause you to seperate the tank using guard from his pal in some way.

 

I could go on and on.

 

Other reasons why expertise matters very little in PvP, besides the pure math aspect? :eek: I better take off my PvE gear, and get my 18% damage bonus from recruit. :rolleyes:

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I agree. I have yet to buy any recruit gear. Most of our games are huttball. I've maxed my medal count out more often than not using crafted pve 49 purples.

 

I would rather spend the cash on other things than throwaway gear. If you could buy the best gear in the game, I would consider it. But its so simple to get BM gear that its a waste of money.

 

Now I do think its funny when people come in with greens and blues that lvl 40 or lower. I kid you not, I saw a guy in lvl 50 pvp with a lvl 20 relic once.

 

I am editing this post to say a few more things.

 

Expertise will not help you do the following things:

 

o In huttball, when the ball carrier is a leaper, expertise will not prevent him from force leaping to you as you stand on the ledge.

 

o At any time, your cc/mezzzes/interrupts are not mitigated by expertise.

 

o Expertise does not help you jump the vents, or auto-pass for you..

 

o Expertise does not prevent you from being pushed into the fire, the pit or off the catwalk.

 

o Expertise does not enable you to detect stealth better. Likewise it does not make you more steatlhy.

 

o Expertise will not pop your cooldowns or relics. Nor will it tell you its time to get the buffs on the bg. It will not automagically cause you to use the ledges or catwalks.

 

o Expertise will not enable you to jump into a crowd of oppoents and stand in their aoe.

 

o Expertise will not change your keyboard turning into mouse turning.

 

o Expertise will not magically make you target the ball carrier or the healer with him. It will also not automatically cause you to seperate the tank using guard from his pal in some way.

 

I could go on and on.

 

This isn't a skill issue. The fact is, with no expertise you're only hurting your team. You don't even have to spend credits on the set, you can get it for free out at Outlaws Den. There is no excuse not to wear the Recruit set.

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How is it not viable? Over all 14 pieces? If I did it over 1000 pieces the trade off would still be the same +EXP - DMG BONUS, and that still assumes a 1 for one trade. Not only is that true, but as I stated previously....

Do you want me to swap all 14? I THOUGHT these two pieces would be better simply because they are not moddable and ONLY have values controlled by BW.

 

 

 

Please tell me how you would test it? You say I haven't posted anything of substance, but you haven't posted anything... Cmon, show me where I screwed up. I'll admit I'm wrong if you show me ANYTHING that directly refutes my statements, but you can't because you don't have a sage @50:rolleyes: and you don't have the PvE equivs:rolleyes:..... I have given you all the info I can on this.... So now I will just give you the last word and move on. Ready? Go....

 

Your difference in expertise is too low, and DR is higher for other secondary stats, so your testing is compromized on this at first. You have provided zero tests outside of WZs, you have posted 2 results that were equal, where expertise was showing a higher trade off at a higher % than a lower. This was also with a lower value range in your ability tooltip. Still you claim expertise being inferior, when it already gives a higher trade off at minimal expertise, even with a lower tooltip value ont he ability.

 

It only gains more and more the more expertise you get compared to secondary stats that are early on effected by DR at a higher degree. Still you claim them better than expertise. You claim a full rakata set is as good for pvp as a full BM set. You have absolutely no clue how expertise works in reality, you think you do from a paper point of view.

 

The difference between a full rakata and a full BM sets are huge when it comes to PvP.

 

Compare the stats on the full sets, see the minor difference in stats and the huge difference in pure buffs to damage, mitigation and healing in pvp.

 

edit: I've also already told you I've done the proper tests at 50 with my sorc i.e same as sage, flagged on fleet, unflagged and out of combat in WZs, but you never bothered to check that did you? Results were the exact same on all tries. That was done to prove that expertise does not kick in outside of active combat i.e the trauma buff getting applied.

Edited by SneakyErvin
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This isn't a skill issue. The fact is, with no expertise you're only hurting your team. You don't even have to spend credits on the set, you can get it for free out at Outlaws Den. There is no excuse not to wear the Recruit set.

 

I have been on many winning teams and have maxed my medal count with various toons without it. Albeit I have also been roll stomped without it. However, I will never buy it. And yes, I do have one toon who farms the free recruit gear. I have at least 4 pieces so far.

 

For the anti-point on expertise gear. We have a guy on our server who is in partial WH and full BM gear. He does not talk, he really does not even move much. He has a reaction time of a slug. I believe he is a kid. Everyone knows him. I always vote him mvp in fact, because he is so bad. However, he is great for testing your rotation on. Attack him and you will get 5 shots in before he slowly keyboard turns to face you.

 

I enjoy popping a relic and a stim to see how much I can hit him for. I know when I can quickly hurt him, my expertise is high enough to begin going toe-to-toe with the big boys.

 

Maybe when I have rocket boots lvl 3 and a pimped out ship, then I will spend the cash to buy throwaway recruit gear. Until then I will simply farm pvp dailies to get my bm gear.

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You have the absolute right to leave the game at any time just as I have the absolue right to queue solo with nothing on at all. Tell me this, what would stop me from purchasing Recruit gear, queuing up, and stripping down to the gray undies and streaking all over the huttball arena? In fact now I'm tempted to do that even more. I'm not in WZs to win, I'm in to have fun and if I win all the better; icing on the cake so to speak.

 

Well I am in the WZ to win it, why should your lackadaisical playstyle trump mine? You get a bonus when I carry you and you win a warzone, I get penalized while you screw around in pre-50 gear and we dont win, granted its not as bad now that we get 1 daily credit for a loss, but thats not helping me finish my weekly any quicker.

 

The whole "I can do what I want arugment" doesnt make you look like any less of an ***.

Edited by RefugeASSASSIN
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Well I am in the WZ to win it, why should your lackadaisical playstyle trump mine? You get a bonus when I carry you and you win a warzone, I get penalized while you screw around in pre-50 gear and we dont win, granted its not as bad now that we get 1 daily credit for a loss, but thats not helping me finish my weekly any quicker.

 

The whole "I can do what I want arugment" doesnt make you look like any less of an ***.

 

Personally speaking, I have no problem with how I appear to other people, opinions vary. If you know I'm being carried by your skill and do not like it, feel free to leave at any point. You can do what you like as well, isn't free will a kicker :) Why should your over enthusiastic play style trump mine? Also feel free to verbally berate me in chat. I welcome all criticisms.

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