Star Wars™: The Old Republic™ — 1.1.4 Patch Notes

Classes and Combat

General

• Using abilities with indirect targeting (such as area of effect abilities) will no longer cause players to be flagged for PvP if a PvP-flagged player from the opposing faction is within the ability's range, and the ability will have no effect on the PvP-flagged player.
  

Star Wars™: The Old Republic™ — 1.1.4 Patch Notes

 

Classes and Combat

 

 

General

• Using abilities with indirect targeting (such as area of effect abilities) will no longer cause players to be flagged for PvP if a PvP-flagged player from the opposing faction is within the ability's range, and the ability will have no effect on the PvP-flagged player.
  

Yes, we know.

There's a few unanswered questions regarding the problem (mentioned slightly up the thread a bit), but this is a good start.

Even worse I hear is that if a PvP flagged friendly walks into your heal patch then you are flagged for PvP automatically!

The only thing they didn't address is this. Now I would hope AoE heals would only heal group members or at least non flagged players if the healer is not flagged.

** Kolto Missile will heal non grouped flagged players, and flag you.

But does this change fix the scenario that has been most reported:

A stealthed and flagged enemy player positions themselves in the midddle of a group of NPCs before you (a PvE'r on a PvE server) hit them with an AoE. The damage to the stealthed player flags you and the combination of the now unstealthed player and the NPCs take you down easily.

Since the AoE does affect the stealthed player, whether I want it to or not, won't I still be flagged and slagged?

Scorus

But does this change fix the scenario that has been most reported:

 

A stealthed and flagged enemy player positions themselves in the midddle of a group of NPCs before you (a PvE'r on a PvE server) hit them with an AoE. The damage to the stealthed player flags you and the combination of the now unstealthed player and the NPCs take you down easily.

 

Since the AoE does affect the stealthed player, whether I want it to or not, won't I still be flagged and slagged?

 

Scorus

Maybe I am missing your confusion here but it says the AOE will not flag you and will not affect the flagged player.

So it will NOT affect them...I am not sure what you mean by "Since the AoE does affect the stealthed player..."

It says the change will make it so it will not affect them if I am reading it right.

But does this change fix the scenario that has been most reported:

 

A stealthed and flagged enemy player positions themselves in the midddle of a group of NPCs before you (a PvE'r on a PvE server) hit them with an AoE. The damage to the stealthed player flags you and the combination of the now unstealthed player and the NPCs take you down easily.

 

Since the AoE does affect the stealthed player, whether I want it to or not, won't I still be flagged and slagged?

 

Scorus

There are two types of targeting for AoE abilities. Ground targeted AoE abilties require that you place a circle on the ground. These types of abilities affect a specific number of targets (usually 3 or 5) within a specific radius (usually 8m) of the spot on the ground you targeted. The other type of ability works exactly the same except that you have to directly target a mob or player. In this case, it affects the directly targeted mob or player plus a specific number of additional (usually 2 or 4) indirect targets within the area of effect (again, usually 8m) centered on the direct target of the ability.

Thus, AoE effects can have two types of targets, direct and indirect. In the case of a ground targeted ability, all targets are indirect because you do not directly target anything. For a targeted ability, the actual target of the skill is the direct target and anything else the ability hits is an indirect target.

What the patch notes say is that a flagged player of the opposing faction can no longer be an indirect target of an AoE ability cast by a non-flagged player. That means two things.

First, it means that your indirect AoE damage will no longer hit a flagged player (stealthed or not) if you are not flagged yourself. Thus, you can use ground targeted damage attacks without any concern (because all damage from them is indirect). For the other type of AoE, the additional, indirect targets will not be hit, so the only thing you have to make sure of is that you do not directly target a flagged player (the same issue with single target skills). As long as your direct target is not a flagged player, your AoE ability will not hit them. If a player is stealthed, then it is highly unlikely that they could be your direct target. Since the indiret damage from the ability will not hit the stealthed player, the chances of you being flagged is almost nil. You would have to directly target the flagged player to be flagged.

What is not solved is what happens when your AoEs affect an ally who is flagged. The patch note only specifies that indirect AoE will not affect players of the opposing faction. That would mean that a healer, for example, who casts an AoE heal that hits a flagged ally would end up getting flagged even if the heal was not intended for that person. Casting a buff on your group will likely still flag you if someone in your group is flagged because the effect is not blocked because they are not of the opposing faction, and so on.

This is a good start, but it does not go far enough.

 

What is not solved is what happens when your AoEs affect an ally who is flagged. The patch note only specifies that indirect AoE will not affect players of the opposing faction. That would mean that a healer, for example, who casts an AoE heal that hits a flagged ally would end up getting flagged even if the heal was not intended for that person. Casting a buff on your group will likely still flag you if someone in your group is flagged because the effect is not blocked because they are not of the opposing faction, and so on.

 

This is a good start, but it does not go far enough.

To me that is far enough.

People should need to be sort of aware of what they are doing. Stealthed opponents tricking you into PvP is not the same as not paying attention and buffing or healing an ally who IS flagged for PvP.

One is almost impossible to avoid, the other is very easily avoidable.

They need to ensure anyone altruistic action to a PvP flagged ally flags you in turn for PvP or that would have serious exploit potential.

The answer to this is very simple.

Prevent all abilities from a non-flagged player to a flagged player.

That includes healing/buffing/guarding/damaging.

They need to ensure anyone altruistic action to a PvP flagged ally flags you in turn for PvP or that would have serious exploit potential.

As has already been said in a number of places, no-one is saying that an altruistic action shouldn't require you to be flagged otherwise, as you say, there is potential for exploits. BUT the alternative is just that altruistic actions can't take place unless you are flagged - so if you want to do those kinds of actions on a PvP player you consciously flag yourself for PvP, not have the game do it for you, because there are situations where even altruism can result in accidental flagging for unaware players.

Other players can run into an AoE heal, for example, when you weren't doing the heal for them ... or you might res a player not knowing he is PvP.

By far best option is to have an option in preferences, so that those you like the current auto-flagging can keep it this way, whereas the rest of us can have it off and never, ever get flagged unless we consciously, specifically and consensually type /pvp.

Of course, this goes hand in hand with the fact that us consensual folks can't ever be altruistic without flagging first, but that is just fine with me and everyone else who has expressed a problem with the current system.

As near as I can tell after today's patch, the following changes happened for friendly flagging.

1) Healing/Buffing a flagged teammate in an flashpoint or operation no longer sets your flag. (Healed an entire HM Black Talon with a PvP flagged tank, no flag set on myself regardless of heals)

2) Healing/Buffing a flagged teammate on the fleet no longer sets your flag.

3) Indirect Healing on a planet does not affect flagged teammates, and will not set your flag.

4) Indirect Healing on a planet does not affect flagged non-teammates, and will not set your flag.

5) Direct Healing a flagged teammate on a planet (in phase or not) sets your flag.

6) Direct Healing/Buffing (Static Barrier or targeted class buff) a flagged non-teammate on a planet sets your flag.

7) Class Buffs will not affect flagged teammates, and will not set your flag on a planet (unless the flagged teammate is the target of the cast)

Of these, 3 and 7 could still be minor issues, but overall this is a VAST improvement over the system we had.

As near as I can tell after today's patch, the following changes happened for friendly flagging.

 

 

1) Healing/Buffing a flagged teammate in an flashpoint or operation no longer sets your flag. (Healed an entire HM Black Talon with a PvP flagged tank, no flag set on myself regardless of heals)

2) Healing/Buffing a flagged teammate on the fleet no longer sets your flag.

3) Indirect Healing on a planet does not affect flagged teammates, and will not set your flag.

4) Indirect Healing on a planet does not affect flagged non-teammates, and will not set your flag.

5) Direct Healing a flagged teammate on a planet (in phase or not) sets your flag.

6) Direct Healing/Buffing (Static Barrier or targeted class buff) a flagged non-teammate on a planet sets your flag.

7) Class Buffs will not affect flagged teammates, and will not set your flag on a planet (unless the flagged teammate is the target of the cast)

 

 

Of these, 3 and 7 could still be minor issues, but overall this is a VAST improvement over the system we had.

Oh good, thanks for the info.

The answer to this is very simple.

Prevent all abilities from a non-flagged player to a flagged player.

That includes healing/buffing/guarding/damaging.

Then you have to flag before aiding anyone instead of just being able to do it.

A bit of a problem on a PvP server.

Of these, 3 and 7 could still be minor issues, but overall this is a VAST improvement over the system we had.

Thanks for the info.

Actually though, that list is pretty much how it should be ... for the players that don't want auto flagging. #3 and #7 are fair enough, but should be backed up with a warning ('condition failed' kind of message) so that you as a player know why it didn't work as expected.

The only bit I don't like is that there is still some auto-flagging (direct attacks/heal) because I'd go even further and remove that possibility. If you want to direct attack/heal a player then simply flag yourself first. It takes no effort and prevents accidents, which will still happen with new players and even with more experienced players in the heat of the moment.

But that's just me

Then you have to flag before aiding anyone instead of just being able to do it.

 

A bit of a problem on a PvP server.

Why - aren't you automatically flagged on a PvP server anyway? (There speaks a PvE player )

I'd always assumed the flagging was something that only existed on a PvE server, because PvP servers were PvP anywhere apart from specific safe zones.

Anyway, my answer (for both PvE and PvP servers) would just be that if you want to help someone then flag yourself. Typing /pvp doesn't take much effort at all.

Ideally though they (BW) would have made an option for this so you auto-flag lovers could keep that system, whereas the rest of us could keep it to a manual only system. But of course we end up with something that doesn't quite make anyone 100% happy

Had a Jedi Sentinel "wander" under my BH's DFA on Hoth while I was killing mobs once. He was exploiting, but it backfired on him. I took down his Doc, then wasted him after he started attacking me. If someone does something like that, take down his companion and then tear him a new one. Preferrably at range if he's a Jedi/Sith. Keep moving, slow him down, interrupt, or in some way debuff his movement or freeze him in place. Then light him up like the 4th of July! Should teach them a lesson in exploiting.. Oh wait! They fixed that in this last patch. NO MORE EXPLOITING for quick kills.

Now, I AM a PvP player in other games. I play TOR as a break from the usual, though. I like PvE here. Not against PvP, but it belongs on a PvP server, imho. Also, imho, hacks are the ones who come to Tython or Korriban at level 14 and start spamming duel invites. They have to pick on the little guys because they can't cut it with the big dogs. Lame.

The only bit I don't like is that there is still some auto-flagging (direct attacks/heal) because I'd go even further and remove that possibility. If you want to direct attack/heal a player then simply flag yourself first. It takes no effort and prevents accidents, which will still happen with new players and even with more experienced players in the heat of the moment.

But that's just me

I'm fine with the auto-flagging for direct heals/buffs. If you're targeting someone to heal or buff them, you've had ample opportunity to see that they're flagged and change your mind about doing it. What matters now is that the potential for both enemy and ally greifing has been virtually eliminated. (It's still possible, but it's going to be very obvious what they're trying to do).

Side Note: It's still somewhat difficult to tell if a corpse is pvp flagged, which can cause a flag to be set just for being nice and rezzing someone you come across in the world.

As for listing 3 and 7 as issues, they're fairly minor ones.

Not getting a group buff is just an annoyance, but I'll agree that it would be nice if there was an explanation telling them why they didn't get it.

Indirect heals not affecting teammates could be a little worse, but as a healer I'm almost never using only indirect heals to keep someone alive, so the time when we'll have opposite flags is fairly limited.

Side Note: It's still somewhat difficult to tell if a corpse is pvp flagged, which can cause a flag to be set just for being nice and rezzing someone you come across in the world.

Yeah despite what I said, on the whole this is a big improvement - there are just some small niggles left now rather than gaping holes

As you say, there is still the potential for inadvertent res-PvP flagging just because it can be difficult to tell, especially as an inexperienced player.

There was a poster in the 'new player help' forums who got flagged, without knowing it, because of his inexperience and having no auto-flagging (backed up with a warning message) would have prevented his problem.

He was on an escort mission so was expecting NPCs to popup at various times along route. At one point this enemy materialised in front of him and he target it and launched an attack. It was only after the attacked was launched that he realised he'd targeted and attacked another player coming out of stealth, and was now flagged for PvP himself. If his attacked had failed with a warning about only being able to attack other players if you are flagged for PvP he would have realised his mistake and carried on with the quest. As it was he died and was left wondering how he could remove his PvP flag.

I just think it is nicer, and clearer, if you have to specifically and consciously flag yourself because then there is no mistake - you know exactly what you are doing - rather than have the game decide that certain actions should flag you.

I would like a setting that prevents me from getting flagged for PVP. I do not want to be flagged because I healed someone or rezzed them on a PVE world and out of a warzone.

The PVEOnlyFlag should prevent any action on a PVP flagged player. That fixes everything. A PVP Flagged player becomes ineligible just like NPCs or landscape mobs.

If I'm in a group, then either we are all PVPing or all PVEing. Flag on/Flag Off (oh thats another movie..)

I'm tired of running to a cantina to wait for the flag to clear. It doesn't even clear if you logout. I logged back in 2 days later and was STILL FLAGGED.. arrrghhhh...

The PVEOnlyFlag should prevent any action on a PVP flagged player. That fixes everything. A PVP Flagged player becomes ineligible just like NPCs or landscape mobs.

This option would appear the obvious solution. We probably would want at least one caveat added: "if a member of a group flags the whole group is flags too!"

Choose group members wisely.

on a pve server pvp should not even be possible outside of a pvp zone period

if you want to pvp on a pve server head to outlaws den - ilum - or queue

on a pve server pvp should not even be possible outside of a pvp zone period

 

if you want to pvp on a pve server head to outlaws den - ilum - or queue

good resurrection.

good opinion. not.

I would like a setting that prevents me from getting flagged for PVP. I do not want to be flagged because I healed someone or rezzed them on a PVE world and out of a warzone.

 

The PVEOnlyFlag should prevent any action on a PVP flagged player. That fixes everything. A PVP Flagged player becomes ineligible just like NPCs or landscape mobs.

 

If I'm in a group, then either we are all PVPing or all PVEing. Flag on/Flag Off (oh thats another movie..)

 

I'm tired of running to a cantina to wait for the flag to clear. It doesn't even clear if you logout. I logged back in 2 days later and was STILL FLAGGED.. arrrghhhh...

I agree with this. Best solution. I heard Rift got it right on the pvp flag. Good to know some game companies can understand the issues with pvp and pve players with flagging.

on a pve server pvp should not even be possible outside of a pvp zone period

 

if you want to pvp on a pve server head to outlaws den - ilum - or queue

Please don't necro. The OP's issue has been fixed.

Please don't necro. The OP's issue has been fixed.

Not fully. The OP's issue was flagging accidently ( hurting others ) when he did not want to be flagged. There are still situations where this can happen. Having a "PVPFlagON/OFF" toggle would solve this. This is the system Rift uses.

exactly - perfectly solved in Rift from day one

you want to pvp - go to a pvp server or a pvp zone - could they add in easier transports to these areas YES but you rolled on a pve server accept it