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A bit confused about the nature of the "dark side"

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
A bit confused about the nature of the "dark side"

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
03.10.2016 , 07:42 PM | #21
FlameYOL, I've seen other people ask you to not post in italics and capitalization. Why must you persist in doing it? It actually makes your posts harder to read.

I took the liberty of rendering your comment below, in a way that doesn't give me a headache.

Please consider posting this way in the future. If not for consideration of others, perhaps because you want people to actually read what you have to say?
Quote: Originally Posted by FlameYOL View Post
My opinion is the same as Darth Plagueis' and that of his master Darth Tenebrous. The force from my point of view is a mere energy conduit, just like if you take more energy than you can get at that time your body suffer from it the dark side works that way.

If you're not ready "let your hate flow" but not let it dominate you then the dark side will affect your mind and even your body (Darth Sidious and Darth Zash are perfect examples of this).

Now, if you are ready to control it and not let it dominate you, you will use a very poweful energy conduit while not allowing to be used against you. A good example of Sith who aren't dominated by their emotions but rather are rulers of them are:

1. King Adas the Sith'ari
2. Maybe Tulak Hord and Marka Ragnos
3. Valkorion the immortal emperor aka the Sith Emperor
4. Freedon Nadd
5. Exar Kun (Yes he coudn't draw to the light side after his fall, but I think that had something to do with his master, Freedon Dadd)
6. Darth Revan (Yes, Revan always commited atrocities, even going as far as genocide with the Mandalorians)
7. Darth Traya
8. Darth Malgus
9. Darth Marr
10. Darth Jadus
11. Darth Bane
12. Darth Plagueis
13. Dark lady Lumiya, and
14. Darth Krayt.

JennyFlynn's Avatar


JennyFlynn
03.10.2016 , 08:33 PM | #22
Thanks for translating, that comment made my brain bleed.
--------{---({@ Defiant Devotion | Defying Destiny | SWTOR Prompt Oneshots @}}>---}-------

FlameYOL's Avatar


FlameYOL
03.11.2016 , 03:46 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
FlameYOL, I've seen other people ask you to not post in italics and capitalization. Why must you persist in doing it? It actually makes your posts harder to read.

I took the liberty of rendering your comment below, in a way that doesn't give me a headache.

Please consider posting this way in the future. If not for consideration of others, perhaps because you want people to actually read what you have to say?
So i should follow that tip because Oh yes i will pretend to care about others now,so be it leave this body OTD in the name of the sith'ari!
A man can have anything...If he's willing to sacrifice everything

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
03.11.2016 , 07:46 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by FlameYOL View Post
Oh yes i will pretend to care about others now
Don't do it because you "care about others". Do it simply because you want people to read what you have to say.

You made some interesting points in your post, and I feel it brought value to the discussion, but it was only apparent once I untangled it, stripped out the excessive capitalization and reformatted it into paragraphs.

Feel free to do what you want, nobody is the boss of you. Just recognize that if you do the Capitalize / Italic / Smooshed-Paragraph thing, people are less likely to listen to what you have to say.

Mewmaster's Avatar


Mewmaster
03.11.2016 , 11:19 PM | #25
I have always preferred one other interpratation of the two sides, that there ARE no sides. no one side is "evil" or "good". yeah, The Dark side can techncially corrupt, but so can the light, look how many Jedi became so extreme in their beliefs that they were going to extreme lengths or getting to a point where they stopped caring about everyone.

in the Legends/EU there are plenty of Jedi, including Luke himself, who use Force lightning and are perfectly fine, even Plo Koon had his own version of it (though he called it something else because the Jedi Council did not want to admit they were wrong)

IMO, It is not the power itself that is bad, only the user who uses it for evil is.
Come to the Dark-side, we has cookies.

phalczen's Avatar


phalczen
03.11.2016 , 11:27 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by FlameYOL View Post
A Good Example Of Sith Who Aren't Dominated By Their Emotions But Rather ARE Rulers Of Them Are:
I don't understand any of those characters to be in control over their emotions at all. Lana says it herself in Chapter 3 of KOTFE while rescuing the Outlander:

Quote:
You Knights ... You're never taught to properly channel your anger
That's not about being in control over your emotions. It's using them. When Luke asks Yoda, "Is the Dark Side stronger?" Yoda replies:

Quote:
No, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive
In other words, the dark side is a channel for your emotions to get what you want, when you want it. Essentially, it is instant gratification.

Anakin killed the younglings, not because he hated them, but because he saw no other way out. He had allowed Mace Windu to be killed by the Sith Master masquerading as Chancellor of the Republic. He believed Palpatine held the knowledge of how to save his wife and let his fear of losing her, instead of waiting to be re-united with her in the Cosmic Force (as defined in TCW S6E12), dominate his decisions. He was easily persuaded in his grief by Palpatine that all Jedi were now enemies of the republic, and in order to "be strong" and "do what must be done," he decided following his new master's instructions was more important than the lives of younglings, who could become potential threats to the ruling government. He was even happy to propose to Padme (and later, Luke) that they kill Palpatine and become rulers of the galaxy themselves. And while in the end Anakin was redeemed, the dark side did in fact dominate his destiny, just as Yoda described. There was so much more that Anakin did as a dark side master than he did as a Jedi Knight.

So it was with Revan. His campaign of xenocide is not the mark of a man risen from the ashes of the dark side and redeemed. He reactivates the Foundry with the sole purpose of eradicating anyone with Sith genetics. Then, when he is stopped from doing that, he starts a secret infiltration campaign and guerilla war culminating on Yavin, a bastion of the dark side, deluding himself that the only way to stop Vitiate is to kill billions of innocent people to re-incarnate Vitiate ... essentially what Vitiate was planning to do anyway as we know from the JK story.

The dark side fits the textbook definition of poor self control, FlameYOL. Succumbing to the dark side isn't the same as losing control. It simply means that the choices you make are more in line with your emotions, rather than contemplative about the larger repercussions. Can people go insane when they explore the dark side? Yes, but I'm guessing authors of Canon and Legends SW material don't believe the dark side makes you insane. Aftet all, there are insane people in this world who do charitable things while in manic states, and insane people who murder innocent people out of hatred of their skin color or faith.

George Lucas was clear. Using the dark side is selfishness. The Force (Living and Cosmic) is in balance between the light and the dark.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
03.12.2016 , 01:18 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by phalczen View Post
George Lucas was clear. Using the dark side is selfishness. The Force (Living and Cosmic) is in balance between the light and the dark.
Great video, thanks. I hadn't seen that before.

eldefail's Avatar


eldefail
03.12.2016 , 05:26 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by JennyFlynn View Post
What I usually see with the people you've mentioned is that they're people of extremes. They're 100% wholesomely good but the moment a temptation sets in, they very easily go to the complete opposite extreme. They're people who in their personality just have no middle ground. You see it a little bit in the game too depending on your class. Take the Jedi Knight story;

Spoiler


So I don't necessarily believe the 'dark side' is this poisonous corrupting influence, it just depends on the person.
You see this with the Sith Warrior companion Jaesa as well.

Spoiler


Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
The Malak you meet in Zayne Carrick's story is presented as a good guy trying to do what he thinks is right in a terrible situation. Later on, when you see him in KOTOR, he's happy to obliterate an entire planet with billions of lives (including members of his own army) without a second thought.

Or Ulic, who is presented as a good guy with a simple character flaw of recklessness. But when he tries to infiltrate the Sith and falls to the dark side, he suddenly doesn't find it difficult to commit horrible atrocities.

Of course, trying to draw too much logic out of fiction puts one at the mercy of authors.
I'm going to go ahead and say it because people usually don't, but a lot of this inconsistency and abrupt face-heel-turn boils down to bad writing. Sadly it then leaves those of us who enjoy Star Wars lore and the expanded universe/legends wondering how to make sense of this cluster you know what of inconsistent and often cartoonishly absurd personality changes.

Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
Yeah, she is an interesting example of a "light-sided Sith" from the viewpoint of the SWTOR game rules.

if one were to take her personality and story at face value, she doesn't seem to be corrupted by the dark side to any noticeable degree.

I'm starting to feel that the Tales of the Jedi representation of the "fall to the dark side" was poorly handled by the authors. Kevin and Tom seem to have taken a short-cut -- flips a switch and suddenly "I'm nao badguyz!" and blames it on the force, rather than giving the reader a more interesting character arc.
Yes, this is exactly right.
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FlameYOL's Avatar


FlameYOL
03.12.2016 , 09:04 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by phalczen View Post
I don't understand any of those characters to be in control over their emotions at all. Lana says it herself in Chapter 3 of KOTFE while rescuing the Outlander:



That's not about being in control over your emotions. It's using them. When Luke asks Yoda, "Is the Dark Side stronger?" Yoda replies:



In other words, the dark side is a channel for your emotions to get what you want, when you want it. Essentially, it is instant gratification.

Anakin killed the younglings, not because he hated them, but because he saw no other way out. He had allowed Mace Windu to be killed by the Sith Master masquerading as Chancellor of the Republic. He believed Palpatine held the knowledge of how to save his wife and let his fear of losing her, instead of waiting to be re-united with her in the Cosmic Force (as defined in TCW S6E12), dominate his decisions. He was easily persuaded in his grief by Palpatine that all Jedi were now enemies of the republic, and in order to "be strong" and "do what must be done," he decided following his new master's instructions was more important than the lives of younglings, who could become potential threats to the ruling government. He was even happy to propose to Padme (and later, Luke) that they kill Palpatine and become rulers of the galaxy themselves. And while in the end Anakin was redeemed, the dark side did in fact dominate his destiny, just as Yoda described. There was so much more that Anakin did as a dark side master than he did as a Jedi Knight.

So it was with Revan. His campaign of xenocide is not the mark of a man risen from the ashes of the dark side and redeemed. He reactivates the Foundry with the sole purpose of eradicating anyone with Sith genetics. Then, when he is stopped from doing that, he starts a secret infiltration campaign and guerilla war culminating on Yavin, a bastion of the dark side, deluding himself that the only way to stop Vitiate is to kill billions of innocent people to re-incarnate Vitiate ... essentially what Vitiate was planning to do anyway as we know from the JK story.

The dark side fits the textbook definition of poor self control, FlameYOL. Succumbing to the dark side isn't the same as losing control. It simply means that the choices you make are more in line with your emotions, rather than contemplative about the larger repercussions. Can people go insane when they explore the dark side? Yes, but I'm guessing authors of Canon and Legends SW material don't believe the dark side makes you insane. Aftet all, there are insane people in this world who do charitable things while in manic states, and insane people who murder innocent people out of hatred of their skin color or faith.

George Lucas was clear. Using the dark side is selfishness. The Force (Living and Cosmic) is in balance between the light and the dark.
Sith are about freeing themselves at whatever the cost,if they start being a slave to their own emotions they aren't sith,but mere dark jedi,true sith can channel his anger while not allowing to dominate him,the dark side is the definition of forbidden knowledge,which leads to great power,which leads to power,and if you have enough power you can free yourself,that is the ideal of the sith,Yoda doesn't know anything other than jedi propaganda about us,also don't blame the dark side for people screwing up their lifes,the darkness was Always there,it just got released.
A man can have anything...If he's willing to sacrifice everything

MayhemofChaonus's Avatar


MayhemofChaonus
03.13.2016 , 05:30 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by phalczen View Post
George Lucas was clear. Using the dark side is selfishness. The Force (Living and Cosmic) is in balance between the light and the dark.
Then that means that Jedi ARE NOT using the Living or Cosmic Force but the Light side of the Force. Therefore Jedi are "corrupted by the lightside" as much as "Sith are corrupted by the Darkside"