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BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?


Dovahbrah

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Now now...the Sniper can share some of its toys

 

In a sniper new abilities braintstorming thread for RotHC abilities, somebody proposed for a sniper being able to grant any friendly a special cover buff to make them immune to leaps and interrupts, at the price of staying stationary :)

 

I am not saying that this is good or bad, i don't even want to comment the balance aspect, i am just saying.

 

TBH as someone who has both a sniper and a merc at 50 and have been working on a sage, I have often thought that sniper is awesome at 30-35m as a turret class. Why do we need 2 other classes that are 30m limit and also a turret, yet none of the benefits that cover gives. What if we had sage or merc or both, have 20-25m in trade off to be more mobile if not entirely mobile. I mean, there are leaps and slows and roots and stuns aplenty to where I don't think that would be a problem, and that would give classes a little more meaning than just a different way of doing essentially the same thing.

 

Currently Gunnery performance can be entirely replicated by MM snipers. It has nothing over it, except for some crappy heals and tech cleanse (i do envy you having this one though, but i will never trade my cover for it).

 

Full Lightning is trying to do the same but is even more gimped with basically no instant attacks or at least requiring some horrible proccing. Even MM has more instant attacks than Lightning.

 

You could improve these specs to make them more sort of instant cast mobile half-ranged DPS classes 20-25m, but you would have to decide how do you want to balance all this in relationship to melee classes. Can you imagine the forum rage if Force Charge =30m, lightning strike 25m...

Edited by NoTomorrow
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No, even in high survivability environments like a static Voidstar (0-0), where death is rare, the top melee dps will score about 50% greater damage than a Merc dps. Sorc/Sage dps is about 25% higher. Even operative dps is about 10% higher. Merc dps damage output sucks at the top skill levels. And it has the lowest survivability. And the lowest utility.

 

Where are you getting these percentages from? Don't just pull numbers out of your bunghole and treat them as if they were something reliable. I can out dps anybody on my merc. Ive put up 800k in VS and nobody else even broke 500k. You are right though about the low survivability and utility. The only time my damage suffers is when I get a guy or two from the oth!er team that focuses me every time, cuz we are pretty easy to kill. But, if they leave me a small window of time in a big group fight, many will suffer and many will die.

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In a sniper new abilities braintstorming thread for RotHC abilities, somebody proposed for a sniper being able to grant any friendly a special cover buff to make them immune to leaps and interrupts, at the price of staying stationary :)

 

I am not saying that this is good or bad, i don't even want to comment the balance aspect, i am just saying.

 

 

 

Currently Gunnery performance can be entirely replicated by MM snipers. It has nothing over it, except for some crappy heals and tech cleanse (i do envy you having this one though, but i will never trade my cover for it).

 

Full Lightning is trying to do the same but is even more gimped with basically no instant attacks or at least requiring some horrible proccing. Even MM has more instant attacks than Lightning.

 

You could improve these specs to make them more sort of instant cast mobile half-ranged DPS classes 20-25m, but you would have to decide how do you want to balance all this in relationship to melee classes. Can you imagine the forum rage if Force Charge =30m, lightning strike 25m...

 

It would have to be balanced out, but that wouldn't be a new problem. The slows, roots, pulls/grapple and leaps give melee something to use and sage/sorc have force speed while mercs can cleans most roots and slows. The problem I see is that still leaves scoundrel/operative. I could see making a lethality/df another mobile-mid ranged class by giving them better methods to get TA/UH, but I know on my scrapper, if someone can kite me, the speed boost doesn't seem to be as fast as force speed and the leg shot is not enough sometimes. Then again; not like that isn't already a problem that needs addressing as well when you talk about that AC.

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No, even in high survivability environments like a static Voidstar (0-0), where death is rare, the top melee dps will score about 50% greater damage than a Merc dps. Sorc/Sage dps is about 25% higher. Even operative dps is about 10% higher. Merc dps damage output sucks at the top skill levels. And it has the lowest survivability. And the lowest utility.

 

Where are you getting these percentages from? Don't just pull numbers out of your bunghole and treat them as if they were something reliable. I can out dps anybody on my merc. Ive put up 800k in VS and nobody else even broke 500k. You are right though about the low survivability and utility. The only time my damage suffers is when I get a guy or two from the oth!er team that focuses me every time, cuz we are pretty easy to kill. But, if they leave me a small window of time in a big group fight, many will suffer and many will die.

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Ekhm. It's called 'the sniper'. try one. unless using cover is to much.

But uncle Atramar, Sniper is to hard, to many buttons, cover sux, and I like my merc/commando since it's high dps 2 buttons (4 if you are pro and starfe).

 

Well Charlie, suck it up.

 

I dunno why you seem to think that wanting our class to not suck at PVP means we want it to be a sniper, except insofar as sniper doesn't suck in a PVP environment. It reflects a ranged class done right. Unfortunately, we all leveled mercenary or commando, and yes indeed have an affectionate attachment to the class. That doesn't necessarily mean we're just in love with 1 button tracer spam. Frankly if thats what you were doing on merc then you were right to reroll sniper because clearly you were an awful Mercenary.

 

The rest of us wouldn't mind some more complexity to our rotations if it meant that shutting down one ability didn't shut us down completely, and I don't see how asking for more utility and survivability is somehow asking too much when we're the lowest for all.

 

Here's what I'm saying: If you don't have anything useful to contribute to the discussion (reroll sniper isn't useful since the topic is improving Merc/Commando), then I'm gonna just treat you like a troll and ignore you Uncle Atramar. If you are a troll then I'm sure you don't care, but if you're trying to be helpful then apologies but you're doing it wrong.

 

On Nerfing Range: This would cripple us as a ranged class. If anything our range should be extended to 35m.

 

From a ranged vs knight/warrior perspective of course there is functionally no difference between 30m and 25m. They can leap to us at the same time that we can engage them either way. If we're casting an ability then they'll interrupt it either way so that's a wash. But 25m range significantly hurts our ability to pick out spots with good obstacles and DPS because we would have to be that much closer to the action, and I don't want to think about the PVE implications. 30m range is why you can plant yourself in the middle of the writhing horror arena and hit the boss no matter where he burrows. Its a significant factor in us not having to move in otherwise mobile fights.

 

Possibly make it a talent that reduces the range of all abilities by 5-10m but allows us to cast on the move? Then we have the option to simply not take it in PVE if we feel it's better (and sometimes we might feel its not better).

 

On the whole though casting on the move is pretty close to instant casts and makes me worry about straying into OP territory. And it STILL doesn't address our utility issues.

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I dunno why you seem to think that wanting our class to not suck at PVP means we want it to be a sniper, except insofar as sniper doesn't suck in a PVP environment. It reflects a ranged class done right. Unfortunately, we all leveled mercenary or commando, and yes indeed have an affectionate attachment to the class. That doesn't necessarily mean we're just in love with 1 button tracer spam. Frankly if thats what you were doing on merc then you were right to reroll sniper because clearly you were an awful Mercenary.

 

The rest of us wouldn't mind some more complexity to our rotations if it meant that shutting down one ability didn't shut us down completely, and I don't see how asking for more utility and survivability is somehow asking too much when we're the lowest for all.

 

Here's what I'm saying: If you don't have anything useful to contribute to the discussion (reroll sniper isn't useful since the topic is improving Merc/Commando), then I'm gonna just treat you like a troll and ignore you Uncle Atramar. If you are a troll then I'm sure you don't care, but if you're trying to be helpful then apologies but you're doing it wrong.

 

On Nerfing Range: This would cripple us as a ranged class. If anything our range should be extended to 35m.

 

From a ranged vs knight/warrior perspective of course there is functionally no difference between 30m and 25m. They can leap to us at the same time that we can engage them either way. If we're casting an ability then they'll interrupt it either way so that's a wash. But 25m range significantly hurts our ability to pick out spots with good obstacles and DPS because we would have to be that much closer to the action, and I don't want to think about the PVE implications. 30m range is why you can plant yourself in the middle of the writhing horror arena and hit the boss no matter where he burrows. Its a significant factor in us not having to move in otherwise mobile fights.

 

Possibly make it a talent that reduces the range of all abilities by 5-10m but allows us to cast on the move? Then we have the option to simply not take it in PVE if we feel it's better (and sometimes we might feel its not better).

 

On the whole though casting on the move is pretty close to instant casts and makes me worry about straying into OP territory. And it STILL doesn't address our utility issues.

 

Hmm, that's a good point. I still do like the idea of run and gun. A lot of times, if I play as an arsenal merc; the reason I cannot get an effective stack of tracer missiles going even when not being focused and interrupted is, people simply run out of range mid cast. You have to stop to fire it and then you have all these classes with speed bursts or even just running while you stop is enough leave you behind.

 

Utility is needed as well, and I also am not a big fan of TM giving me 3 different stacks for different things. it is just too much of a focus on TM. Pyros also is "ok" but I feel it to lacks something. One thing with it that bothers me is the chance of procing lending to a greater possibility of being unlucky and not getting it for a string of attacks which then can also cause you to not get that extra heat management.

 

Whatever they do, I can't wait to revisit my merc and try it out.

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Where are you getting these percentages from? Don't just pull numbers out of your bunghole and treat them as if they were something reliable. I can out dps anybody on my merc. Ive put up 800k in VS and nobody else even broke 500k. You are right though about the low survivability and utility. The only time my damage suffers is when I get a guy or two from the oth!er team that focuses me every time, cuz we are pretty easy to kill. But, if they leave me a small window of time in a big group fight, many will suffer and many will die.

 

Just read back even just a few pages man. 800k is small potatoes to top PTs, Juggs, Maras and even some Sins. If I play in the middle of the day (like now) when the competition is poor, I'll steamroll puggers and take the top damage easily. When the rated DPS players get on (and if I see them / group with them) my damage is mediocre.

Edited by Jherad
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Just read back even just a few pages man. 800k is small potatoes to top PTs, Juggs, Maras and even some Sins. If I play in the middle of the day (like now) when the competition is poor, I'll steamroll puggers and take the top damage easily. When the rated DPS players get on (and if I see them / group with them) my damage is mediocre.

 

IDK man. No matter what time I play at, I'm almost always at or near the top in damage, dps, and killing blows when that is all Im worried about. The only time Im not is when I actually play objectives like guarding nodes or carrying orbs. Now I can't kill hardly anybody 1v1 which is where the survivability issue comes in. And really, when I put up big damage numbers, or somebody else does, I become worried because that means nobodies dying. Alot of times I find myself strategically trying to take out a target like a healer and everybody else is just spamming abilities on any old random target trying to keep there damage numbers rolling. I do this too, every now and then when I get frustrated, and can put up big numbers. Big numbers that dont mean anything cuz we lost. I haven't tried it yet, but maybe one of these matches I'll just spam, spam, spam and see what I can top out at. Then I'll take a pic of the scoreboard along with my woody and post it everywhere showing everybody how good I am.

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I haven't tried it yet, but maybe one of these matches I'll just spam, spam, spam and see what I can top out at. Then I'll take a pic of the scoreboard along with my woody and post it everywhere showing everybody how good I am.

 

Go for it. As I said a few pages back, here's the numbers to beat if you think you're good:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=572972

 

1.65 million is the best so far. 1.52 to make it into the top 5. Of course, that's just going for damage and not 'real' pvp, but hey - if any commando/merc can approach those numbers any way, any how, I'd love to know.

 

Let us know if you break 1 million with a happy screenshot. 1-1.2 million is what I've seen from players personally whilst they're still actually playing to win.

 

Of course the 'best' games are lower damage. A quick win means low damage, but you can compare DPS too if that helps.

Edited by Jherad
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Go for it. As I said a few pages back, here's the numbers to beat if you think you're good:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=572972

 

1.65 million is the best so far. 1.52 to make it into the top 5. Of course, that's just going for damage and not 'real' pvp, but hey - if any commando/merc can approach those numbers any way, any how, I'd love to know.

 

Let us know if you break 1 million with a happy screenshot. 1-1.2 million is what I've seen from players personally whilst they're still actually playing to win.

 

Of course the 'best' games are lower damage. A quick win means low damage, but you can compare DPS too if that helps.

 

I still got to get you my SS up for you but as i said before it wasnt a gloating round because it was mainly a healer stack and next to nobody died :p

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I still got to get you my SS up for you but as i said before it wasnt a gloating round because it was mainly a healer stack and next to nobody died :p

 

Like I said before, that would be awesome - and probably break some kind of record for commandos. But (assuming it's a cool million) it's still about 15% less than a good PT. Which is about how much I personally think we'd need to be improved.

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So-very tempted to roll a commando and start facerolling people.

 

 

...and start getting facerolled by people*

Is what you meant to say.

You should reread your posts make sure you didnt leave out any words and spell everything correctly

 

Its okay I do it ALL the time.

Edited by Bluntron
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IDK man. No matter what time I play at, I'm almost always at or near the top in damage, dps, and killing blows when that is all Im worried about. The only time Im not is when I actually play objectives like guarding nodes or carrying orbs. Now I can't kill hardly anybody 1v1 which is where the survivability issue comes in. And really, when I put up big damage numbers, or somebody else does, I become worried because that means nobodies dying. Alot of times I find myself strategically trying to take out a target like a healer and everybody else is just spamming abilities on any old random target trying to keep there damage numbers rolling. I do this too, every now and then when I get frustrated, and can put up big numbers. Big numbers that dont mean anything cuz we lost. I haven't tried it yet, but maybe one of these matches I'll just spam, spam, spam and see what I can top out at. Then I'll take a pic of the scoreboard along with my woody and post it everywhere showing everybody how good I am.

 

Let me know if you get Invincible or Immortal quoting in a WZ as a merc/mando.

 

800k is nothing. Top score charts is Nothing.

Anyone here who has made a valid and intelligent post on this forum can pull 800k as a merc in a VS, all it requires is ED and FM the right target in a cluster fuk of people and keep DFA on CD. 800k easy. Maybe a MB here and there.

Edited by Bluntron
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Hi everyone! I talked to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Commandos and Mercenaries and their situation in PvP right now, and he had this to say:

 

I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes. We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.

 

I believe that a good escape mechanism for Commandos/Mercs would be to add an ability that allows them some kind of ability that propels them back 30 meters away from target, while at the same time making the target blinded(due to smoke blinding) for 4 seconds. It could have a jet pack/rocket boost effect with smoke that pushes the merc/commando back away from target. Maybe on a 20-30 sec timer. Sort of like a reverse force leap. Thoughts?

Edited by bigfishcjp
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I believe that a good escape mechanism for Commandos/Mercs would be to add an ability that allows them some kind of ability that propels them back 30 meters away from target, while at the same time making the target blinded(due to smoke blinding) for 4 seconds. It could have a jet pack/rocket boost effect with smoke that pushes the merc/commando back away from target. Maybe on a 20-30 sec timer. Sort of like a reverse force leap. Thoughts?

 

That type of disengage ability has been suggested numerous times. I personally feel it could help, but escape issues are but a small part of the problem. Which is why that post you quoted depressed the heck out of a lot of commandos/mercs.

Edited by Jherad
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An escape mechanism is a big part of it, but the real issue is that the design of the AC only allows for 100% *reactive* gameplay... combined with low survivability and low utility. There's no way to take the initiative. You're utterly chained to X Y Z axes with no way to make your interface with those axes dynamic in any way. You're always reacting to the initiative of other players that engage you, leap you, pull you, push you, lock you, root you, and mez you as you crawl across the map in perma-snare mode and try to slow-cast a rotation that takes three times longer to complete than it takes a button-masher on a pyro-Powertech to melt your face off. It's a clunky AC in pvp. Even with an escape we'll still be the target-dummies of the Warzones until they re-think the AC and give it something that makes it a dynamic option to play in PvP. Think of all the options that an Assassin, Operative, or even a Marauder posssses to regain the initiative during a PvP encounter. The merc/mando has virtually none, except a casted mez that requires a secondary ability just to fire it off reliably, and which is instantly negated by a stunbreaker. There's just no way to take the initiative (and sorry but positioning & LoSing aren't "initiative", it's simply what every player of every AC just *does* - it has nothing to do with class design).
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An escape mechanism is a big part of it, but the real issue is that the design of the AC only allows for 100% *reactive* gameplay... combined with low survivability and low utility. There's no way to take the initiative. You're utterly chained to X Y Z axes with no way to make your interface with those axes dynamic in any way. You're always reacting to the initiative of other players that engage you, leap you, pull you, push you, lock you, root you, and mez you as you crawl across the map in perma-snare mode and try to slow-cast a rotation that takes three times longer to complete than it takes a button-masher on a pyro-Powertech to melt your face off. It's a clunky AC in pvp. Even with an escape we'll still be the target-dummies of the Warzones until they re-think the AC and give it something that makes it a dynamic option to play in PvP. Think of all the options that an Assassin, Operative, or even a Marauder posssses to regain the initiative during a PvP encounter. The merc/mando has virtually none, except a casted mez that requires a secondary ability just to fire it off reliably, and which is instantly negated by a stunbreaker. There's just no way to take the initiative (and sorry but positioning & LoSing aren't "initiative", it's simply what every player of every AC just *does* - it has nothing to do with class design).

 

wall of text but so true

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All i know is, next class balance patch time if they cant fix most of the issues and most

fix the broken merc/mandos i see no hope what so ever for pvp in this game.

And i think they will lose even more pvp subs in the next weeks.I have lost to many friends to other

games because the swtor "pvp" team doesnt have a clue what they are doing and if this continue

i'm gone aswell.They have until next class balance pacth thats it.Loook st AoC, they got later some of the

best pvp on the market,but what did it do them after everyone had left...

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So... will 1.7 will save us from despair? Will it be 1.8? 1.9? 2.0? Over 9000?

 

You can talk to us Bioware, we don't bite (but we may unsuscribe, but you're used to that now).

 

My bet is we won't get anything meaningful until the expansion. More than likely they will do something with bubblestun and the smashmonkies in 1.7 but mercs/mandos will simply be told to LoS the pillars more.

 

WOOT...1000!!!!!

Edited by DariusCalera
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i think they shoud lower the combat shied upgrade to Reactive shield (immune to interrupts) one tier down on healing tree, that way it would be more accessible to gunnery specced mandos, and then add some kind of Hold the line skill. Edited by xxIncubixx
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