As a very new guild who didn't even make it onto the PTS 1.2 beta, we're pretty proud with how fast we were able to clear out HM EC. Our Kephess kill went down last night 17 seconds before the servers went down (didn't even get to distribute loot).

Here's a gallery of screenshots. http://cruxguild.com/gallery/m/4018703/album/58853

We spent about 8-10 hours on Kephess Sunday/Monday with many group comps, perfecting our strategy as much as we could. As you can see from the screenshot, we haven't quite got the last phase down although everything was perfect till ~30%.

As we look towards this new week we hope to get 4/4 HM 16M as well! Loving the new challenge over past content.

More proof 8man is easier than 16man.

Perhaps, by virtue of not having to carry any bads just to fill a roster, and being able to coordinate better, sure. Not everyone in a 16 man might be as focused or prepared as those in a tighter 8 man group. However, mobs aren't going to hit harder since tanks are still the same characters with the same defenses regardless of group size. Healers have more people to worry about, but you should have twice as many healers anyway.

4 guilds have completed 16-man hard. 8 guilds have completed 8-man hard. How many more 8 man guilds do you think are out there, though? A LOT more than there are 16 man guilds, I'll wager. The ratio seems about right to me in that case. Also, it's possible that some guilds are stuck due to the supposed invisible lightning spire bug (which we didn't encounter, so maybe it only occurs in 16 mans?). If that is the stumbling block as some have claimed, then if it weren't for that, the clears on 16 man would likely be higher.

Right now, some mechanics on 16 man are either not working as intended, or deliberately easier than they are in 8man.

Finally, and despite the history between our guilds and the business with Artacks (which I was not a part of, so I could truly care less about), this is not meant as an insult or an offensive jab... but when CKN progresses further in 16 man perhaps then your comment will carry more weight. Of course, the opposite holds true for me, since I haven't personally completed any encounters on hard mode with a 16 man ops group. I'm not above reproach.

I firmly believe that Gabe meant what he said at the summit when he said the difficulties are targeted to be even and relative to the scale of the encounter. In fact, he said that some stats would be tuned *down* for 16 man due to the increased coordination required in dealing with a larger ops size.

Perhaps, by virtue of not having to carry any bads just to fill a roster, and being able to coordinate better, sure. Not everyone in a 16 man might be as focused or prepared as those in a tighter 8 man group. However, mobs aren't going to hit harder since tanks are still the same characters with the same defenses regardless of group size. Healers have more people to worry about, but you should have twice as many healers anyway.

 

4 guilds have completed 16-man hard. 8 guilds have completed 8-man hard. How many more 8 man guilds do you think are out there, though? A LOT more than there are 16 man guilds, I'll wager. The ratio seems about right to me in that case. Also, it's possible that some guilds are stuck due to the supposed invisible lightning spire bug (which we didn't encounter, so maybe it only occurs in 16 mans?). If that is the stumbling block as some have claimed, then if it weren't for that, the clears on 16 man would likely be higher.

 

Right now, some mechanics on 16 man are either not working as intended, or deliberately easier than they are in 8man.

 

Finally, and despite the history between our guilds and the business with Artacks (which I was not a part of, so I could truly care less about), this is not meant as an insult or an offensive jab... but when CKN progresses further in 16 man perhaps then your comment will carry more weight.

 

I firmly believe that Gabe meant what he said at the summit when he said the difficulties are targeted to be even and relative to the scale of the encounter. In fact, he said that some stats would be tuned *down* for 16 man due to the increased coordination required in dealing with a larger ops size.

8man Tanks - 14k hit with a cd on tank with Incinerate armor.

16 man Tanks - 24k hit with a cd on tank with Incinerate armor.

Theoretically, you can avoid tank swapping on Firebrand in 8 man provided cd's are up and healers are aware. Cannot on 16 man. That is just one example of the dmg discrepancies between the two, and I am sure there are many more.

About carrying bads? I will reserve my comments on this topic. unfortunately.

Artacks? I have zero idea who that is, or what you are referring too so not sure how that ties into the conversation and history between the two guilds. Irrelevant imho anyway to how 8 man is easier than 16. Regarding our progression, it is what it is right now. We are recruiting to fill spots regarding my previously reserved comment. We are consistently hitting low enrage on two tanks, so its a tweak here and there to up a little dps and we should have it down. Either way, doesn't matter, we will get there eventually.

You hit enrage on tanks on 16?

On the PTS we learned the enrage for 8 was tight for tanks, but on 16 man the enrage timers for all the fights feel nonexistent. That's the one thing we've found easier about 16 man, and it's due to the armor debuffs currently stacking.

The reason 8 man is so easy compared to 16 man comes down to one thing alone; spacing and communication. Communicating between 8 players is a world different than 16, and for anything that requires reaction-- especially learning new content-- the communication gap is astounding. As a perfectionist and a raid leader, in 8 man raids I can watch every single player and see who could perform better, on a 16 man scale, I can't personally monitor every member of the raid.

As for the other part, spacing, it's obvious. On every fight save kephiss there is some aoe mechanic where being spaced out makes things tremendously easier. 16 man will be the figure head for progression, as it has been in previous games, and 8 man guilds will continue to be viewed in a more casual light because it's significantly less work on everyone to assemble a core and lead the group.

8man Tanks - 14k hit with a cd on tank with Incinerate armor.

16 man Tanks - 24k hit with a cd on tank with Incinerate armor.

 

Theoretically, you can avoid tank swapping on Firebrand in 8 man provided cd's are up and healers are aware. Cannot on 16 man. That is just one example of the dmg discrepancies between the two, and I am sure there are many more.

 

About carrying bads? I will reserve my comments on this topic. unfortunately.

 

Artacks? I have zero idea who that is, or what you are referring too so not sure how that ties into the conversation and history between the two guilds. Irrelevant imho anyway to how 8 man is easier than 16. Regarding our progression, it is what it is right now. We are recruiting to fill spots regarding my previously reserved comment. We are consistently hitting low enrage on two tanks, so its a tweak here and there to up a little dps and we should have it down. Either way, doesn't matter, we will get there eventually.

Okay, I see what you're saying about Incinerate, but frankly the tank with the debuff should be swapping to Stormcaller regardless. I still believe Gabe regarding his comments on relative difficulty. Having pushed progression right behind Condemned for Tier 1 in 16 man, and now 8 man for Tier 2 (believe me, we understand your woes regarding recruiting at the moment), I can see the issue from both sides and think it's unfair to belittle anyone's accomplishment. Especially not by claiming its "easier" to accomplish with fewer people. Particularly in this tier of content, I just don't believe that is true at all.

As for my comment about Artacks (a.k.a. Riddle, the guy who hates Nerf Dialogue even though everyone he has problems with has moved on to other games), I was only illustrating that I don't have any agenda or harbor animosity towards your guild in the way some of your members seem to towards ours. I felt the need to do so before I said anything else, so my comment wouldn't seem as though I were just trolling you. I'm sure you guys will clear the zone in due time.

You hit enrage on tanks on 16?

 

On the PTS we learned the enrage for 8 was tight for tanks, but on 16 man the enrage timers for all the fights feel nonexistent. That's the one thing we've found easier about 16 man, and it's due to the armor debuffs currently stacking.

 

The reason 8 man is so easy compared to 16 man comes down to one thing alone; spacing and communication. Communicating between 8 players is a world different than 16, and for anything that requires reaction-- especially learning new content-- the communication gap is astounding. As a perfectionist and a raid leader, in 8 man raids I can watch every single player and see who could perform better, on a 16 man scale, I can't personally monitor every member of the raid.

 

As for the other part, spacing, it's obvious. On every fight save kephiss there is some aoe mechanic where being spaced out makes things tremendously easier. 16 man will be the figure head for progression, as it has been in previous games, and 8 man guilds will continue to be viewed in a more casual light because it's significantly less work on everyone to assemble a core and lead the group.

I think that's unfortunate, and I would think so even if we were still fielding a 16 man roster. Heck, I'll STILL think so once we pick up a few more solid players who actually show up regularly .

Essentially, though, what you're saying is that people are going to be viewed as superior not because the fights are any harder mechanically, but because they have to deal with more crap.

edit: I feel bad hijacking this guild's thread. Sorry Crux.

 

As for my comment about Artacks (a.k.a. Riddle, the guy who hates Nerf Dialogue even though everyone he has problems with has moved on to other games), I was only illustrating that I don't have any agenda or harbor animosity towards your guild in the way some of your members seem to towards ours. I felt the need to do so before I said anything else, so my comment wouldn't seem as though I were just trolling you. I'm sure you guys will clear the zone in due time.

You realize he doesn't even play anymore and you still talk about him... Obsessed much?

You realize he doesn't even play anymore and you still talk about him... Obsessed much?

"...we want them to be sort of a relative difficulty. Now obviously inherent, there's more difficulty in organizing 16 people. So on the stat side of the NPCs, we kind of lower some of the stats to compensate for that difficulty difference of coordinating, getting everyone to execute as they need to. The target is to hit it at the same difficulty level."

--Gabe Amatangelo, Guild Summit: Operations Panel, 3/5/12

Cute Edit btw.

Cute Edit btw.

It's just not that important. Anybody that was involved is now gone, so I'm not going to feed the trolls.

Can't we all just get along?

For Crux we run two progression 8Man's, one got 3/4 other got 4/4 so we'll see how the 16M goes this week.

Undoubtedly 8M is going to be easier for a lot of guilds because it's easier to field that size with decent players. However, assuming the skill of your players remains constant when you go up to 16M from what Gabe said I'd imagine 16M would be easier. Certainly instances like the final phase on Kephess might be harder due to positioning with more players and I think 16M should definitely be where "real" competitive progression happens but due to Bioware's adjustments with 1.2 I'm not sure 16M is actually harder.

That said we definitely don't have the experience with world progression or even 1.2 content like you guys do but I'd imagine us doing fairly well on 16M this week because we aren't pulling in casuals or PvPers to fill out the other 8 slots. Maybe the content will prove harder then it appears (that wouldn't be such a bad thing IMO).

For Crux we run two progression 8Man's, one got 3/4 other got 4/4 so we'll see how the 16M goes this week.

 

Undoubtedly 8M is going to be easier for a lot of guilds because it's easier to field that size with decent players. However, assuming the skill of your players remains constant when you go up to 16M from what Gabe said I'd imagine 16M would be easier. Certainly instances like the final phase on Kephess might be harder due to positioning with more players and I think 16M should definitely be where "real" competitive progression happens but due to Bioware's adjustments with 1.2 I'm not sure 16M is actually harder.

 

That said we definitely don't have the experience with world progression or even 1.2 content like you guys do but I'd imagine us doing fairly well on 16M this week because we aren't pulling in casuals or PvPers to fill out the other 8 slots. Maybe the content will prove harder then it appears (that wouldn't be such a bad thing IMO).

Good luck! Let us know how you do. Also, make sure to record your progress on swtor.raidranks.com and post up some screenshots there. The more folks participate, the better the quality of the ranks.

 

"...we want them to be sort of a relative difficulty. Now obviously inherent, there's more difficulty in organizing 16 people. So on the stat side of the NPCs, we kind of lower some of the stats to compensate for that difficulty difference of coordinating, getting everyone to execute as they need to. The target is to hit it at the same difficulty level."

 

--Gabe Amatangelo, Guild Summit: Operations Panel, 3/5/12

Then they missed the mark if thats genuinely their goal, because 8 is a joke compared to 16 man.

Then they missed the mark if thats genuinely their goal, because 8 is a joke compared to 16 man.

Previous tier, yes, but not in this tier.

Just stop. 8 man is easier.

Seriously.

Stop.

The smaller size is easier 90% of the time for most encounters in every single damn MMO. This stupid debate needs to go away.

I don't care what that dev says. He HAS to say that, he has to stay neutral and politically correct.

Just stop. 8 man is easier.

 

Seriously.

 

Stop.

 

The smaller size is easier 90% of the time for most encounters in every single damn MMO. This stupid debate needs to go away.

 

I don't care what that dev says. He HAS to say that, he has to stay neutral and politically correct.

And again, there's a difference between this tier and the last. The enrage timers and healing issues are much tighter than the last tier, so it becomes a lot more unforgiving for 8 man. They promised some "balance", making 16 man slightly easier when it comes to raw numbers, and that can definitely be felt at bosses like Minesweeper and Kephess (dpsing down the last bomber when two tanks need to be on Kephess; really tight healing right before the last phase and right before the very last phase (in order to survive that purple crap on the floor Marauder's Predation and Sniper's Shield are needed, etc.).

The smaller size really is irrelevant for this type of raid in which the spaces you move in are vast by default. The only difference are Stormcaller and Firebrand where the platforms are quite small for 16 people to manouver.

I'm not saying that 16 man is easier by default now and that it's automatically a walk in the park, far from it, it's just that I'm glad that they kept their promise in tuning 8 man to the appropriate level. If you compare 8 man NiM Karagga's Palace and 16 man NiM, the difference is just ridiculous and it's an embarrassing design, but that is no longer the case in EC HM.

Stop saying 8 man is competitively tuned with 16 man. I've cleared both, 8 multiple times on PTS, and 16 multiple times on live.

I can sleepwalk through 8 man hard mode as a healer except for the second boss. 16 man is still a bit challenging even after knowing every encounter by heart. 8 man is not challenging in the slightest bit anymore.

And again, there's a difference between this tier and the last. The enrage timers and healing issues are much tighter than the last tier, so it becomes a lot more unforgiving for 8 man. They promised some "balance", making 16 man slightly easier when it comes to raw numbers, and that can definitely be felt at bosses like Minesweeper and Kephess (dpsing down the last bomber when two tanks need to be on Kephess; really tight healing right before the last phase and right before the very last phase (in order to survive that purple crap on the floor Marauder's Predation and Sniper's Shield are needed, etc.).

 

The smaller size really is irrelevant for this type of raid in which the spaces you move in are vast by default. The only difference are Stormcaller and Firebrand where the platforms are quite small for 16 people to manouver.

 

I'm not saying that 16 man is easier by default now and that it's automatically a walk in the park, far from it, it's just that I'm glad that they kept their promise in tuning 8 man to the appropriate level. If you compare 8 man NiM Karagga's Palace and 16 man NiM, the difference is just ridiculous and it's an embarrassing design, but that is no longer the case in EC HM.

Once again, JUST STOP.

Ever since WOW went to a same loot no matter size system and the same thing in SWTOR, the smaller size has NEVER been harder or even equal to the larger size, even though they claim it is always their goal to make them equal, they just can't do it. You have the very few exceptions to this rule where a smaller size fight was tuned extremely tight, but these are also extremely rare (hi sinestra or 3 drake sarth). 90% of the content is always harder on the larger size.

The devs have to say that they are going for "balance" and both sizes are "competitve" because they drop the same loot. THEY HAVE TO SAY THAT AND IT HAS NEVER BEEN TRUE. It is not true in this tier either.

I could give examples in this tier how 16 man is more difficult in a good number of ways but I am not going to bother, I am sorry but talking to people who try to justify smaller size raiding as "competitve" is like talking to a wall.

By all means, raid what you enjoy, but please don't try to validate it as "competitive", it just isn't and competitive raiders will ALWAYS gravitate to the larger size.

The fact is I guess I look down on 8 man or smaller size raiding, I know that is elitist, and stupid, but I can't help it. You don't deserve the same quality loot as the larger size, sorry, you just don't.

I will give you that they did a vast improvement on the difficulty from 8 man tier 1 to tier 2, but they did that for 16 as well, and 8 is still not even close to on par with 16.

...The fact is I guess I look down on 8 man or smaller size raiding, I know that is elitist, and stupid, but I can't help it. You don't deserve the same quality loot as the larger size, sorry, you just don't.

And the truth is revealed.

It's just harder to get 16 people to carry their own weight. We're nearly able to run 16 man again, so I suppose the personal debate will end shortly for me and mine, but I still think they're equal in relative difficulty. Since 1.2, there have been changes to Tier 1 content as well. I've run 8 and 16 in EV on two different characters since then. On 8, the trash is a joke, yes. On 16, it hits harder, BUT you have twice as many healers to compensate. People just need to be awake and not treat it like 8 man. In *relative* difficulty, it's the same, you just require more out of more people. Therein lies the difficulty.

That being said, I would never think to diminish the accomplishments of our friends in Condemned, or the folks in Millenium across the pond. I just think that it's unfair to dismiss the accomplishments of an 8 man guild. The content is more demanding and with eight, you can't afford to have one screwing around or not playing well.

And the truth is revealed.

I just think that it's unfair to dismiss the accomplishments of an 8 man guild. The content is more demanding and with eight, you can't afford to have one screwing around or not playing well.

The problem is, we already have one person that has done it multiple times for both difficulties and states that 8 is a joke compared to 16 man. On Firebrand and Stormcaller 16, if one person makes a mistake, it is a 90% chance of a wipe depending on the mistake. There isn't really a lot of leeway for error.

12 guilds have reported killing 8man 4/4 Hm on the raid progress site. Crux isn't one of them though they posted here. Out of the 16 man guild, 4 have posted there. 1/3 the number. I would also venture to say that more 16 man guilds are active on the forums, pts, etc moreso than the 8 man guilds. Theory only, but stands to reason. More members, more activity within the community.

Not everyone looks down on 8mans as inferior, but if there really is a difficulty level difference besides the numbers, then yes there will be a consensus that 16 is where competitive raiding is at.

I think the question of difficulty is a complicated one. We did the fights on Hard Mode on 8-man on the PTS, and we're now clearing them on 16-man Hard Mode on live. Toth and Zorn feels pretty comparable to me, i.e., not hugely difficult on either difficulty, and the enrage timer isn't much of an issue on either mode.

Firebrand and Stormcaller, however, is *significantly* more difficult on 16-man Hard Mode than on 8-man Hard Mode. It's like a totally different fight. They've made a number of tuning mistakes with the fight that make it vastly more difficult on 16-man.

For example:

(1) The damage on tanks is ramped up significantly. This matters because even with twice as many healers there are still phases of the fight that involve movement (e..g, going to and from the shields). The ramped up damage matters a lot here, since you have to have a lot more coordination, e.g., one healer remaining stationary while the other gets back on the tank, etc.

(2) Double Destruction is serious business. The ticks are doubled on 16-man, which means you have to have coordinated healing assignments for the DD targets. It's also a nightmare if you push Defensive Systems right after the second DD, because you're having to try to keep these people alive while running to the shields. On 8-man this was a complete non-issue, since the ticks weren't going to put the DD targets in immediate danger.

(3) There are 4 shields on 16-man compared to 8-man. This requires a lot more coordination to deal with, since shield damage is based off the number of people standing under it. If one person runs to the wrong shield and/or brushes the wrong shield, you end up blowing it early (oh and guess what, the Mortar Volley damage is higher too).

The shields can also be split on the back and on the side, so your healers can't cross-heal. One of them will typically be out of range of the tank, who is taking way more damage than on 8-man. This is especially problematic as the phase ends, since the tank can eat a huge hit from Stormcaller.

(4) The frontal attacks of Firebrand and Stormcaller are near 1-shots. Any positioning mistakes will result in people getting absolutely creamed. Because twice as many people get caught by positioning mistakes typically compared to 8, this is a case where quadruple damage is unintentionally being dealt.

Things that are a bit easier than 8-man but only slightly:

(1) You can use 3 tanks on 16-man and still meet the enrage. This is important because of how huge the frontal damage from the hovertanks is.

(2) The enrage timer is a bit easier.

Overall, though, this is just the 2nd fight of the instance and there is just no comparison. The difficulty of this fight on 16-man is far far beyond the 8-man level.