First things first - I started playing TOR back when the trial program launched, which was something of a prelude to it going F2P. So I think I qualify as a veteran that knows a thing or two. Also, this thread may come out as a rant to some people, so you've been warned at least.

 

I haven't been doing a lot of endgame recently, mostly a gf ops run here and there. However, I've noticed a trend when doing something that isn't on the gf list. Many players, mostly but not exclusively those with little to no achievements, somewhat crappy gear and not communicative in the chat, display a severe lack of understanding of what to do. I realize I'm coming up as an elitist, but hear me out.

 

Back in the day, it was normal for someone to write in the chat if he hasn't done an ops/boss before. I've done it on more than one occasion, I've seen other people do it as well, and there has always been someone willing to explain the tactics. After learning a fight, I've also explained the tactics for it to new players many times.

These days, I rarely see this happen. New players don't write anything in the chat, even thought it's obvious they don't know what they're doing. I have tried explaining tactics anyway, yet many are either incapable or unwilling to follow them. Usually they leave without saying a word after one or two wipes.

 

Additionally, it seems few are willing to explain tactics at all now.

Here's an example: I tried looking for guides for the Gods of the Machine ops, yet I managed to find only for the first two bosses. Fair enough I thought, I'm just going to write while looking for a group that I haven't done this ops before and will need explanation on tactics. Besides, it's a sm run, how hard can it be. How wrong I was in both of my assumptions. I make a full group, all is well and good. However, no one offers any advice or guidance, even though I repeatedly ask for it in the chat prior to starting the raid. At least no one wrote the usual "gogogogogg".

 

First boss is a wipe, unsurprisingly. One of the "pro" dps (i.e. has good gear, knows his rotation but hasn't said a word in the chat until now) writes something along the lines of "attack boss only, leave the adds". It's a little bit better the second time, although one or two guys die anyway. The tactics for the second boss were, more or less, a complete mess in my head, but I still had some idea of what to do. This time we wiped twice. The run happened some time ago, so my memory is not quite clear, but I think one dps of the aforementioned "doesn't have achievements, doesn't have gear, doesn't talk" type left at this point. It's not like it hasn't happened before, I thought. I go back to the fleet and spend a couple of minutes looking for another dps. No one writes anything in chat. No advices, no explanations, nothing. The new dps seems to be our lucky charm, because we get through this boss fight, although I have no idea how. I tried following whatever tactics were in my head to the best of my abilities, but it was a button mash at the end, at least for me.

Third boss is a complete blank for me. I don't know what to expect. I state that in the chat again. I get one "just go" as an answer. I need to mention that things weren't going ok even before we start the fight, because some of the geniuses dropped down and got engaged in combat due to the candle thing or whatever, I didn't quite get it. Had to stuck it and run back from the start of the ops. Anyway. Wanna guess what happened after we started the fight? Hint: We didn't get to finish this run.

I'm proper annoyed at this point, and start venting in the chat. Honestly, what did they expect of me? I must have said at least two dozen times that I haven't done this raid before. Another "pro" dps goes "git gud noob" and leaves.. A couple other guys join him as well, with the exception that they don't even bother writing something. One of the heals says "Get a guild and do it with them". The other one chimes in with "This fight is too hard to explain". Thanks for the input, mates. For the record, they both had the achievements of doing the ops on sm.

 

So yeah, that's my gripe with the current endgame population. I believe the source of this behaviour can be found in Bioware's treatment of new players. The majority of the new content is either spoonfed to the player and/or has a nanny NPC/bonus abilities that more or less play the game for you. Add to that that pretty much all of the old content has been dumbed down to the ground - tactics in sm ops are mostly gone as of 4.0, the companions are still OP and can carry you regardless of what gear you have, and let's not even get at how bolster ruined proper leveling. Hell, you can even add the removal of the skill trees and the base classes.

 

Tl;dr Bioware are treating the new players as braindead and I believe this is the reason they give up when being faced with something resembling a challenge.

Edited February 25, 2019 by starwarsfansix

I think you need to decide what you're ranting about, because it isn't clear.

 

A. Content is too easy?

 

B. We wiped because no one would explain the fight to me?

 

C. Players are elitist jerks not willing to explain things to new players?

 

Not sure exactly what you're going after here. I mean, I don't see the correlation between A and B. But maybe it's just me.

 

FWIW, I've had mixed experiences after coming back after several years. I've forgotten a lot of the mechanics I used to know by heart, and I've been called "noob" more than I can recall, despite being totally willing to ask. However, I've also had some great runs with patient players who will let us wipe once and then point out what the deal is. Usually I have to ask, "What's the deal with the ... ?

It sounds like your problem is less with new players and more with the experienced individuals who don't want to offer advice or tactics. Frankly, those people are not new. I started playing in 2012 and have been running into those types from the beginning. When I came back to the game a couple years ago and tried doing some FP's I would as often, if not moreso, run into people who would rather tell me to get good or call me a noob if I said I either needed a refresher on tactics or had never done the FP before. Perhaps the bigger problem is that those who are willing to teach and guide have largely left the game, or stick to guild/friend runs, and what we're left with are the ones who want a group full of experienced individuals; either because they can't be bothered to help someone or need to be carried themselves.

So you are saying you asked "in chat". Does that mean you build a raid, without knowing the bosses AND without providing voice (teamspeak, discord, etc.) and, as the raid lead, expect people to explain the mechanics to you?

 

You made multiple mistakes there, obvsly.

First, if you dont know the OP, dont build the group on your own. Everybody in the group will expect the raid lead, YOU to guide them. Wait till someone is looking for mates in general chat etc. and tell them you dont know the OP, but are more than willing to learn it. 80% of people will invite you, provide voice servers and explain it to you directly (Atleast if its an sm OP).

Or the old fashioned way: Get 7 other people who are new as well and go the long hard way of working things out on your own. But atleast nobody will have high expectations and leave early or frustrated.

 

That leads me to your second mistake: Dont expect people to explain complex mechanics in chat. Thats like expecting someone to write a personal guide for you. Atleast if you as a raid lead dont know the OP, provide voice, invite them and get the explaniation there. Its much quicker, easier and they could even remind you of important things midfight since most of GftM fights are too long to remember everything at first try.

 

Many SM OPs can be run without voice of course, but GftM is none of them. Atleast if you got people new to the fights.

 

People leaving without a word or even insult you are a totaly different story. But i would say you can filter out some of these a++holes if you use teamspeak. People on the internet tend to be less garbage in direct vocal communication

Edited February 25, 2019 by mrphstar

Like others have pointed you've made quite a few mistakes yourself, as raid leader you should've been familiar, or had someone who was as your LT, with the Operation. As for whether or not new players have become too entitled, I wouldn't know. I haven't done endgame content in many months as I have no need for the grind, as of yet anyhow, however throughout the years my own personal experience answers the question with another question "Depends, which new player are we talking about". I've had new players joining things they didn't knew the first thing about, but who would try their best once proper explanation was given, even if we failed they still tried. I had others who in turn completely ignored all attempts at dialogue in regards to mechanics, rotations, etc. So really, it depends on the player.

Guys, as I pointed out originally, I wrote while looking for people that I will need explanations with the tactics because I'm not familiar with the operation. Everybody that wanted in knew exactly what he was getting into. That, or they expected to get carried while just mashing buttons.

 

I think you need to decide what you're ranting about, because it isn't clear.

 

A. Content is too easy?

 

B. We wiped because no one would explain the fight to me?

 

C. Players are elitist jerks not willing to explain things to new players?

 

Not sure exactly what you're going after here. I mean, I don't see the correlation between A and B. But maybe it's just me.

 

I guess I'm ranting about a high amount of new players not wanting the learn tactics (at least in my experience), the gap in difficulty between solo content and group content being too high and geared and supposedly experienced players not bothering to explain things because they just want a quick run to get the CXP at the end.

 

First, if you dont know the OP, dont build the group on your own. Everybody in the group will expect the raid lead, YOU to guide them.

Like others have pointed you've made quite a few mistakes yourself, as raid leader you should've been familiar, or had someone who was as your LT, with the Operation.

 

Do you know how many times I've had to explain what the tactics are on Bestia or Operator IX while not being group leader? If you have such high expectations about pug raid leaders, that's on you, mates.

 

Wait till someone is looking for mates in general chat etc. and tell them you dont know the OP, but are more than willing to learn it. 80% of people will invite you, provide voice servers and explain it to you directly (Atleast if its an sm OP).

 

No offense mate, but that's absolutely made-up information. That has literally never happened to me, or anyone else I have had more meaningful interaction with in the game.

 

That leads me to your second mistake: Dont expect people to explain complex mechanics in chat. Thats like expecting someone to write a personal guide for you.

 

I'm not trying to brag or anything, although it definitely seems like I'm doing it, but I've done exactly this a lot of times. And I used to see many people do it as well.

 

I admit, the new (relatively speaking) raid seems to have more complex mechanics than most, however I didn't know it at the time and I expressly stated so multiple times while creating the group.

I guess I'm ranting about a high amount of new players not wanting the learn tactics (at least in my experience), the gap in difficulty between solo content and group content being too high and geared and supposedly experienced players not bothering to explain things because they just want a quick run to get the CXP at the end.

 

Got it. Yeah, I can agree with a lot of that. Many OPs and even FP runs seem to be like that now. If you aggro even one unnecessary add, you're a noob, lol. People want to be in and out in the absolute minimum amount of time possible, which doesn't make much sense to me personally. I mean, I get that some people really want to be in top gear as fast as possible, but if you've only got a limited amount of content to run, you'd think people would try to enjoy themselves.

 

Maybe that's just me talking after a two-year break, however. Everything is shiny and new again. Maybe in a year I'll be the jerk to new players, lol. Let's hope not.

It sounds like your problem is less with new players and more with the experienced individuals who don't want to offer advice or tactics. .

 

This happens quite often, even in vet FPs. When I see people are low level \ make mistakes I usually ask if they know what to do before pulling harder bosses (sandstorm one in Czerka, Mentor in D7, even HK in Foundry). Often followed by 'ez'. Often followed by a wipe caused by people not knowing what to do.

I saw newbies not following orders, and wipe, but never saw one fp when someone asked for tactic, and nobody explained. I asked for tactic several times. Mostly on master, if i never did the boss before. I even wrote at start, that i never done this before.

 

In cases when i did veteran i don't ask for tactic, because veteran does the same mechanic just easier. I always try to figure out how would it work on master. Dispell stuff, don't use koltos unless i have to, interrupt stuff, and so on.

 

For veteran fp, if i haven't done before, then i just used default, and followed the rest to avoid unnecessary enemies.

 

Default tactic (healer): keep everyone alive, stand out from AOE at all cost, don't stand in front of boss, rotate coltos if must, cleanse any debuff and judge later whether it should be cleansed or not.

Do you know how many times I've had to explain what the tactics are on Bestia or Operator IX while not being group leader? If you have such high expectations about pug raid leaders, that's on you, mates.

 

sorry to bust your bubble, but you are the one with high, or atleast wrong expectations about your raid members.

people who actualy know the fights and want to explain them, tend to create the group on their own, where they still can decide wether or not they wanna guide unexperienced people. they rarely will join random pugs just to be pushed into the leading role again.

 

 

 

 

No offense mate, but that's absolutely made-up information. That has literally never happened to me, or anyone else I have had more meaningful interaction with in the game.

 

bad luck on you than, or you ask the wrong way.

try it this way: watch some videos or read guides first, but dont lead the OPs then. wait for someone in general to look for your role, tell them you´ll need some explanations cuz you never been their personaly, but prepared yourself with guides. in no world the majority of players will reject you.

but again, if you lead the group, people naturaly expect you to explain things. if you said you need guiding yourself, but dont provide voice, dont be suprised if the people with the actual knowledge wont join you. thats just not how it works.

 

I'm not trying to brag or anything, although it definitely seems like I'm doing it, but I've done exactly this a lot of times. And I used to see many people do it as well.

 

that might be the case for older OPs. but absolutly nobody will explain the Twins, Scyva or Izax in any mode via chat.

it already takes >10mins to explain them in voice, because of their complex mechanis compared to older OPs. imagine typing all the mechanics off 15min long fights into the chat. wont gonna happen.

that might be the case for older OPs. but absolutly nobody will explain the Twins, Scyva or Izax in any mode via chat.

it already takes >10mins to explain them in voice, because of their complex mechanis compared to older OPs. imagine typing all the mechanics off 15min long fights into the chat. wont gonna happen.

 

I've done that a few times. you don't have to explain every single mechanic, just enough that they don't wipe the whole group and can hopefully stay alive themselves too. takes like 30 seconds.

I've done that a few times. you don't have to explain every single mechanic, just enough that they don't wipe the whole group and can hopefully stay alive themselves too. takes like 30 seconds.

 

i doubt one could put a clear explanation of all the things one could die from at izax into chat in 30 secs.

but if so, congrats, you took the risk and were gifted people who are able to listen and remember things they read one time and immediatly learn from it. thought this kind of players became extinct.

 

most of the time when i get new players with me into GotM, me or s.o. else has to repeat every little step in real time via voice so that they knew when to click a certain color, where and when to positon exactly, etc.