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Balanced Ideal Tank Stats

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Balanced Ideal Tank Stats

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
04.09.2015 , 05:14 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by dipstik View Post
i have yet to dig into kbn's mathematica script to find all the deviations of our assumptions from one another. the biggest is the process by which numbers are derived. kbn uses mathematica to generate his numbers, and i believe he has a method of testing the neighborhoods of the points suggested by mathematica (or some algorithm to avoid local minima). I use excel solver and if i see the numbers lobesided, it is typically due to a bad seed (initial guess) that pushes the numbers into a particular local minima of dtps. i will then change the seed to something like 1300 of each stat (if you look at my sheets you will see cells next to defense, shield and absorb that are there just to copy and paste to set the seed). i used to use a maple (another math program, for symbolic stufts mostly) method of lagrange multipliers to find optima, but, like kbn's process, it would take around 5 minutes to get d,s,a ratings for a single set of lagrange constants, for a single type of tank (and that was before kinetic bulwark added around 100 operations per damage/stat setup). even when we were both using numerical analytical methods, we still differed in that he used ratios of stats (like x+y+z=1) where as i set up lagrange constants like defense=stat_pool-shield-absorb. i think kbn still uses these ratios in his script.
I calculated a new set of ratios based on 3.0 gear (namely the sturdiness/immunity enhancements and new relics). These ratios are a first-order approximation in the purest sense of the phrase, so there's always room for improvement. Should be pretty accurate for full Revanite gear though.

Mathematica actually works its way out of local optima on its own, which is kind of fun (and also part of why it takes such an absurd amount of time). I used to have to give it an initial seed set and prune off the computation manually, but by doing better on the min/max values of shield given a certain stat pool, I can give Mathematica enough information to bound its differential solution space. It does have certain points where it numerically prunes off the approximation, and this can result in "jumps" in the continuous graphs (you can see this in my post). In general though, I'm just climbing the hypersurface. The most complicated element of the optimization is, as you referenced, Kinetic Bulwark, simply due to the fact that defense levels affect frequency of shielding which affects KB value which affects absorb (and shield) value which affects defense and shield value which loops back to the beginning, so that optimization is quite complex. I have updated for the new set bonus, as well as the new swing timers (new content has a MUCH higher swing timer than old content).

A lot of the really ugly bits of my worksheet are devoted to memoization (without which even computing a single data point could take weeks of CPU time) and parallelization. The actual math bits are quite straightforward.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

December 13, 2011 to January 30, 2017

dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
04.09.2015 , 05:27 PM | #12
many thanks

spike is a function of squish... i wonder if i can solve for squish as a function of spike and use that for something...

i still think using boss abilities and frequencies to generate death probabilities as a function of fight length, and setting up a model where endurance can trade with mitigation to find a balance between required heals and ... required healing actions per minute? last i checked kbn wanted to do a signal process type thing. probability of a boss ability, probability of being at a certain amount of health should give probability of dying to a certain hit. we want to decrease the probability of dying.

there might be a quick way of using spike as an exponent and using time to kill as a type of carrying capacity or something... logistic model?

dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
04.09.2015 , 05:37 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
I calculated a new set of ratios based on 3.0 gear (namely the sturdiness/immunity enhancements and new relics). These ratios are a first-order approximation in the purest sense of the phrase, so there's always room for improvement. Should be pretty accurate for full Revanite gear though.

Mathematica actually works its way out of local optima on its own, which is kind of fun (and also part of why it takes such an absurd amount of time). I used to have to give it an initial seed set and prune off the computation manually, but by doing better on the min/max values of shield given a certain stat pool, I can give Mathematica enough information to bound its differential solution space. It does have certain points where it numerically prunes off the approximation, and this can result in "jumps" in the continuous graphs (you can see this in my post). In general though, I'm just climbing the hypersurface. The most complicated element of the optimization is, as you referenced, Kinetic Bulwark, simply due to the fact that defense levels affect frequency of shielding which affects KB value which affects absorb (and shield) value which affects defense and shield value which loops back to the beginning, so that optimization is quite complex. I have updated for the new set bonus, as well as the new swing timers (new content has a MUCH higher swing timer than old content).

A lot of the really ugly bits of my worksheet are devoted to memoization (without which even computing a single data point could take weeks of CPU time) and parallelization. The actual math bits are quite straightforward.
pray tell, what is the new swing timer? since im doing all per boss i guess i could use per boss swing timer info... if anyone has those...

leto_cleon's Avatar


leto_cleon
04.09.2015 , 08:00 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Jethsidi View Post
B-Mods Stat Budget = 3841
Your Averages:
Juggernaut 1098/1505/1219 = 3822
Powertech 800/1747/1250 = 3797
Assassin 649/1458/1690 = 3797

Closest Actual Attainable Stats (Matched Defense, then Shield, and rest in Absorb)
Juggernaut
Def - 1094 = 25.08%
Shield - 1512 = 47.97%
Abs - 1235 = 46.63%

Pwertech
Def - 807 = 18.48%
Shield - 1720 = 51.20%
Abs - 1314 = 51.69%

Assassin
Def - 653 = 23.94%
Shield - 1460 = 58.38%
Abs - 1728 = 53.57%

Happy Tanking!
I've added these in as Methoxa 3841 Avg. I'll wait for KBN to check his boss categorisations and Methoxa's recalculations before I add in the per boss ones.

Methoxa's Avatar


Methoxa
04.10.2015 , 04:44 AM | #15
Stats have been updated with KBN's 3841 numbers.
Malaphar stats updted with KBN's new numbers
Revanchist

namesaretough's Avatar


namesaretough
04.10.2015 , 03:01 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Methoxa View Post

Dtps seemed good + Healers found it easy to heal.
Not to be difficult, but I'm pretty sure with the same quality of execution your healers wouldn't be able to tell the difference between any of these 4 gear stat distributions (the three you're averaging and your average). The variation of incoming damage is far more dependent on executing mechanics and RNG than these slight differences in stat weights. Frankly, you could probably swap 500 points around in your revan gearing distribution and your total dtps difference would be totally wiped out by timing saber reflect a tiny bit better (or the attack timings being friendlier) and catching a single extra cleave with it.

I certainly see the value in academic comparisons of incoming damage based on gear, but healer feedback/logged dtps is a really unreliable way to judge the relative merit of stat distributions.

For perspective, if you see a 1% change in damage taken on a fight where you're taking 1500 dtps (which as far as I can tell is a larger change than the difference in any of these stat weights), it's a 15dtps difference. That's 9000 damage total in a 10 minute fight (like revan or coratanni).
Smugglin

Methoxa's Avatar


Methoxa
04.10.2015 , 04:03 PM | #17
Quote:
Not to be difficult, but I'm pretty sure with the same quality of execution your healers wouldn't be able to tell the difference between any of these 4 gear stat distributions (the three you're averaging and your average)
No one would, thats why we use parsers but still ask for feedback from our healers because parsers don't say much about spikyness which is highest at sword squadrons. Thats why i run the tests. Furthermore my dtps are in fact a little lower than with KBN stats however, that might be coincidence as you would need to run 10000 tests to proof something like that. It however tells me that my numbers are not totally bad.

KBN 3841 : 0752/1541/1548
Methoxa 3841 : 734/1707/1400

The difference is the shield and absorb. While trying to minimize dtps you will want to try to keep absorb about the same than your shieldrating. My numbers however prefer a higher shield. Shield means less spikes. While my numbers might increase dtps they will reduce the amount of spikes. KBN's number however might not decrease the frequency of spikes, but the damage of those spikes. I prefer receiving less spikes, because as a juggernaut i have other possibilities of llower the dmg of a spike.

But as i said before, it might also be coincidence that my numbers let my healers feel that i was less spiky. Of course they might be wrong, maybe some other healer would think that i was far more spiky. But for me it is not possible to calculate spikiness and inplement it into a tanking formula. Thats why i trust the 3 people that might be able to do that one day. KBN for his dtps minimizing formulas, as well as dipstick and Jethsidi for his insight about DR mitgation. Putting all 3 together might be closer to perfection your equipment than just sticking with one of them.

And as you said, perfect execution is more important than tankstats, however even if you do a boss for the thousands time something might go wrong, or someone might not play perfect and thats where stats come into play.

Quote:
you could probably swap 500 points around in your revan gearing distribution and your total dtps difference would be totally wiped out by timing saber reflect a tiny bit better
Well we are still learning this fight so excuse the non perfect execution. However in the few tries we had i observated that Revan sometimes delays his Overcharged Dual saber attack after a heave so it wont fit into the Saber reflect window because it is delayed by nearly 6 seconds.
Revanchist

namesaretough's Avatar


namesaretough
04.10.2015 , 04:27 PM | #18
I wasn't criticizing your execution, I was just using that as an example of being unable to tell from a fight parse which gear loadout is better. Even how you spiky you feel is going to be almost exclusively dependent on execution over gearing. I'm not in here trying to tell you how to live your life though, you just do you
Smugglin

Methoxa's Avatar


Methoxa
04.10.2015 , 04:53 PM | #19
I very well understood what you wanted to say, and i thought i answered to it with this sentence :

Quote:
And as you said, perfect execution is more important than tankstats
If you had 2 tanklogs, both perfectly executed but one of the tanks without offhand you can tell the difference. The difference between a tank without min-max gear and a tank with min-max gear might be slighter, but is this really what you essentially want to say? Min - maxing is not worth it? I thought Zorz was min-maxing kings.

Sometimes even 5 dtps less can make the difference. Thats why i try both perfect exection and perfect equipment.

Of course a perfect execution is more important but some raids <mine recently and in the past> lack in consistancy regarding the players, who then have to learn the fight and can not play perfectly,yet.
Revanchist

namesaretough's Avatar


namesaretough
04.10.2015 , 04:58 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Methoxa View Post
I very well understood what you wanted to say, and i thought i answered to it with this sentence :



If you had 2 tanklogs, both perfectly executed but one of the tanks without offhand you can tell the difference. The difference between a tank without min-max gear and a tank with min-max gear might be slighter, but is this really what you essentially want to say? Min - maxing is not worth it? I thought Zorz was min-maxing kings.

Sometimes even 5 dtps less can make the difference. Thats why i try both perfect exection and perfect equipment.
I'm saying that you can't min-max by looking at logs because you'll never have perfect execution. That's why I said
"I certainly see the value in academic comparisons of incoming damage based on gear, but healer feedback/logged dtps is a really unreliable way to judge the relative merit of stat distributions." The 10dtps difference is going to be totally lost in fight-to-fight changes.
Smugglin