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Tanks comparison. Need advice.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles
Tanks comparison. Need advice.

Arzarat's Avatar


Arzarat
05.11.2015 , 10:47 AM | #1
Hello everyone!
Currently I`m trying to choose a tanking class. I used to tank a lot in another game, so I have experience in that, or at least, I hope so.
The choice is between Darkness Assassin and Immortal Juggernaut. I like both of them equally and, also, played both of them for a while. However, it was almost half a year ago.
So the question is: which one will be more viable tank in terms of mitigation, damage-taken-per second and spikiness? Which will be more reliable and sort of "stable" tank for the current Ops content?
Can they be compared to each other, and if yes, which will be better bet?
I'm not looking for the OP tank or class, I just want to hear opinions regarding the current state of these two classes, and, if possible, their comparison in the current situation.

Thanks in advance!

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
05.11.2015 , 11:38 AM | #2
Short answer: they're both terrific. Longer answer: they're both really terrific.

Juggs and Sins are nearly indistinguishable in terms of base mitigation DtPS. In fact, I can guarantee that any mathematical differences are going to be washed out by pure fight and mitigation RNG. This is distinct from Powertechs, who are quite noticeably behind in the mitigation department (not that this is a practical problem, but it's very noticeable in logs). Juggs and Sins both have a terrific set of cooldowns, though Sins have the edge here with cooldowns that are as (or in some cases, more) powerful on shorter timers, together with the ability to reset their medpack mid-fight. Sins have better mobility for most fights (Powertechs have the best of the three), though Juggs aren't exactly in the gutter. Sins are perceived as more spiky than Juggs, and there is some truth to that, though in practice a good Sin is going to smooth most of that out. Sins also have significantly more HP than either of the other two tanks, which is extremely helpful in this tier.

Utility-wise, Juggs are in fairly good shape with a group speed boost, group bubble and a myriad of stuns (not to mention an armor debuff when off-tanking). Sins counter this with the healing puddle of happiness, which is a little more than twice as good as a Sniper shield when time-averaged (though clearly inferior for dealing with burst). Sins also have the stealth rez, which is enormously useful in progression, a decent set of stuns on shorter CDs, a pull and an AoE knockback (vs the single-target for Juggs). Sins also have a slightly better Guard than the other two tanks (it results in more damage reduction on the target).

In terms of threat, Juggs have noticeably better snap threat than Sins when all their CDs are up (e.g. in the opener), though Sins are better than Juggs (and PTs) when mid-fight snap threat is required and cooldowns are not available. Sustained threat is dead even. Sins have slightly better AoE threat against adds that do non-reflectable damage, while Juggs absolutely destroy the other two tanks in any situation where Saber Reflect applies. Juggs also have a very, very awkward AoE threat opener when Aegis is not up.

Sins have slightly better off-tank DPS than Juggs due to the slightly higher reliance of Juggs on mitigation procs, but honestly both of them are gutter trash compared to the off-tank DPS of PTs. Hopefully Bioware will fix this eventually, because it's annoying. (when actively taking damage, all three tanks are pretty much dead even in terms of DPS)

Both Juggs and Sins have very significant active mitigation mechanisms, though more of a Sin's mitigation is active (relative to passive) than a Jugg. Also, Jugg active mitigation mechanisms generally have a 60-70% margin for error (e.g. a 20 second buff refreshed by a 12 second CD), whereas Sin active mitigation is closer to a 14-15% margin for error. Also, the more significant of the two major Sin active mitigation mechanics is non-rotational and purely down to buff management, whereas Jugg (and PT) active mitigation essentially comes down to "do your rotation". This makes Sins more punishing and arguably somewhat harder to play in terms of mitigation maintenance, though I don't think that the mitigation is truly hard to maintain in any objective sense. It is most certainly more punishing if you get it wrong though.

Honestly, pick the one that you like better and go with it! Both of them are viable. Sins are in vogue right now, and Juggs are generally repudiated by progression teams, but there's absolutely no objective foundation for this state of affairs. Juggs are just as viable as Sins, and are capable of bringing their own unique advantages.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

December 13, 2011 to January 30, 2017

JouerTue's Avatar


JouerTue
05.11.2015 , 11:48 AM | #3
im sure there's better players to answer you( edited: like they guy above me XD), but i'll drop my opinion: they are both really good tanks, perfectly viable and i'd say pick what you like, personally i prefere the assassin.

dtps: in this tier of ops is strictly bound to avoidable damage, jugg has an easier life since it has not to maintain his ''rotation'' as precisely as the assassin to keep up his damage reduction, but a well played assassin is better.

cooldowns: jugg is superior thanks to 90-120'' cd heal to full. saber ward is like deflection but on longer cd and first 2 seconds of almost untouchable status, sin shroud is better cheesing cd than saber reflect since it will resist most of the mechanics, endure pain is another really good ops cooldown, giving a lot of breath to healers.

mitigation: while baseline jugg has better plain dr, a close to 100% 4 stacks assassin, with decent healers uptime on phase walk's shadow shelter is the best around.

there's more to know so you might want to check dulfy website, it has really good guides, or on this forum the various topics about stat budget on tanks.
The Red Eclipse
Republic: anstacav, giranda, hobogo, vitulal, wasiq, zadoro, onovidi
Empire: astutillo, comel'am, covamo, heksebo, qarrarr, dadietr
The Harbringer- Republic: hobogo; Empire: qarrarr

Arzarat's Avatar


Arzarat
05.11.2015 , 11:53 AM | #4
Thanks a lot for such detailed replies!

akisgood's Avatar


akisgood
05.12.2015 , 09:49 AM | #5
If you're choosing between sin tank and jug tank, you should go for PT tank
Spoon @ (Pot5) Harb/Shadowlands
<Provectus>

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
05.12.2015 , 10:17 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by akisgood View Post
If you're choosing between sin tank and jug tank, you should go for PT tank
Because…hydraulics?

PT tanks are great. They're certainly viable relative to the other tanks, but they aren't without their downsides. The fact that you take significantly more damage (especially with the high I/E damage in this tier) and have fewer specialized tools to address that damage is a pretty big one.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

December 13, 2011 to January 30, 2017

mastirkal's Avatar


mastirkal
05.14.2015 , 03:42 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Because…hydraulics?

PT tanks are great. They're certainly viable relative to the other tanks, but they aren't without their downsides. The fact that you take significantly more damage (especially with the high I/E damage in this tier) and have fewer specialized tools to address that damage is a pretty big one.
That's why spoon isn't a tank. PT tank is the best for two utilities being Hydrolics and Sonic Barrier, besides that I'd say sins are the best tanks for this tier of content with fights like torque (post buff), MB, Revan (HK and blades), and underlurker where the mix of force speed, sin shelter and teleport, force shroud, and force cloak win the day super hard.
Poopvectus

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
05.14.2015 , 04:20 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by mastirkal View Post
That's why spoon isn't a tank. PT tank is the best for two utilities being Hydrolics and Sonic Barrier, besides that I'd say sins are the best tanks for this tier of content with fights like torque (post buff), MB, Revan (HK and blades), and underlurker where the mix of force speed, sin shelter and teleport, force shroud, and force cloak win the day super hard.
We're calling invisible fire a "buff" now? ;-)

More seriously, I think Justin said it really well in a conversation he and I had on the topic about a month ago. Well actually he said a lot, but I can condense…

In essence, he said that powertech tanks are always going to be the best tanks for rapid progression. They have a particular output ceiling, and they're able to reach that ceiling very quickly with minimal study of the fight. They don't need to know what type of damage they're taking to choose a cooldown, they just facemash the win button. They have excellent mobility, and probably the most direct tools for controlling the effects of a fight. Their output ceiling is very specific, but that ceiling is far from a problem.

Sins and Juggs, by comparison, are able to do that One Weird Trick (PTs hate them!) that makes the healing just a bit easier in this one spot, or cheeses something random that gives the DPS that one extra GCD of uptime, that sort of thing. They can do amazing, breathtaking things, but they need to think very carefully about the particulars of a fight in order to do it. So while they may have a higher ceiling in terms of what they can give the group, it's going to take them longer to get there just as a function of needing to see the fight more than PTs.

Justin opined that the best composition is probably a PT paired with either a Sin or a Jugg (though he thinks Sin is probably slightly better, especially for this tier). You have the steady reliable tank that ramps up quickly and gives you a few extra pulls when you're still in Phase W-T-F of progression on a fight, and you have the troubled genius tank who shows up the next night with a rocket powered skateboard.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

December 13, 2011 to January 30, 2017

akisgood's Avatar


akisgood
05.15.2015 , 02:38 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Because…hydraulics?

PT tanks are great. They're certainly viable relative to the other tanks, but they aren't without their downsides. The fact that you take significantly more damage (especially with the high I/E damage in this tier) and have fewer specialized tools to address that damage is a pretty big one.
Because hydraulics, because they're nice and simple and you can't go too far wrong if you're new, because you get a gun(!), and because, as you said above, they can do solidly on every fight all the time. Nobody likes a paper tank!

Sins are cool, but I agree with the post above that they aren't reaching their potential until they know the fight and the fact that somebody is asking which tank class to play obviously means they don't know the fights from a tanking PoV. I think he should make a sin second once he's learnt the fights on the PT, but an opinion is an opinion and somebody somewhere is always going to disagree with it.

p.s. nirvy, your PT is your designated main in our guild m9, just sayin
Spoon @ (Pot5) Harb/Shadowlands
<Provectus>

mastirkal's Avatar


mastirkal
05.15.2015 , 03:19 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
We're calling invisible fire a "buff" now? ;-)
Mostly talking about saber reflect being less useful in that fight, but yea, force shroud is also amazing with them fires. I remember pulling some clutch kills out because I stood in fire and blocked shoots lasers from the repair droid. The rest of your post is pretty spot on.

@Spoon, shush you.
Poopvectus