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Let's STOP the spread of misinformation about operative DPS (high OR low!)


Furiasara

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There's SO much misinformation on here about how much DPS operatives can do, even in a vacuum situation(on dummies).

 

First of all, so many people are posting their supposed numbers but either aren't providing screenshot proof or aren't attacking the proper OPERATION test dummy. If you are attacking any other test dummy, you ARE NOT getting an accurate reading of how much DPS you are truly capable of.

 

Secondly, we have NOT seen proof that operatives are within 5% of Marauders like we are SUPPOSED to be. To claim that we have is 100% misinformation. Until an operative is posting proof that they are hitting the OPERATION dummy for 1500 DPS, then they ARE NOT doing within 5% of Marauders, because that's what marauders do.

 

I feel like this post is going to fall on deaf ears or instantly get trolled but if we, as a community of the operative class, want to improve and spread awareness of our state, we need to stop posting misinformation such as word of mouth reports of doing so and so amount of DPS with no proof to back it up and start getting accurate information out there so that IF we are too weak at DPS, we can start to pressure bioware to fix us and if we are FINE at DPS and really within 5% of marauders, that we can show that too.

 

Here's a example from the marauder forums:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=410056

This has screenshot proof of DPS vs the proper target dummies.

 

Compare it to this from our own forum:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=409392

Despite being 5 pages long with a dozen 'reports' of certain DPS, there's not a single screenshot to back any of it up and the numbers are ALL over the place.

Edited by Furiasara
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http://i39.tinypic.com/2w3rkg5.jpg

 

http://i41.tinypic.com/105rxhk.jpg

 

I had trouble getting the original image the right size. I don't think anyone can read it so i posted just the parser on the second image.

 

I messed up my rotation and it lowered a bit when i stopped attacking but i can sustain around 1350-1400 or so 3 minutes into the fight.

Edited by xdivinexdawnx
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-snip-

 

I love you, you are so right. That other thread is nothing but people bickering with no data to back it up.

 

Let's get this thread filled with a ton of actually screenshotted data so we can prove one way or another how our damage is.

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I love you, you are so right. That other thread is nothing but people bickering with no data to back it up.

 

Let's get this thread filled with a ton of actually screenshotted data so we can prove one way or another how our damage is.

Dangerous way of trying to prove something.

 

Target dummies don't take circumstances in content (e.g. but not limited to operations) into account such as but not limited to player skill, raid buffs, debuffs on boss, AoE, movement, target switching, (partial) downtime due to range, utility, RNG (e.g. crit). To be fair, it does factor in relevant circumstances a sim would generally not such as UI lag (tho one could argue this is player skill which SimC does take into account).

 

To quote Elitistjerks shadow priest 4.3 FAQ:

 

Q: I changed my spec, and on a training dummy my new spec gives me more DPS!

A: What you do on a training dummy is irrelevant, not only is your sample data far too small to rule out RNG, you're also missing lots of buffs/target debuffs that will change the way certain talents perform.

Perfectly valid here, so you should take the parses with a huge grain of salt.

 

Besides, if a screenshot proves to you what a text quote does not then the obvious flaw is your misplaced trust in a screenshot. Newsflash: screenshots can be manipulated.

 

I'm far more interested in raw logs tho they'd require a log parser which is a complex piece of software. Target dummies are far too unreliable to provide any meaningful numbers.

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Dangerous way of trying to prove something.

 

Target dummies don't take circumstances in content (e.g. but not limited to operations) into account such as but not limited to player skill, raid buffs, debuffs on boss, AoE, movement, target switching, (partial) downtime due to range, utility, RNG (e.g. crit). To be fair, it does factor in relevant circumstances a sim would generally not such as UI lag (tho one could argue this is player skill which SimC does take into account).

 

To quote Elitistjerks shadow priest 4.3 FAQ:

 

Perfectly valid here, so you should take the parses with a huge grain of salt.

 

Besides, if a screenshot proves to you what a text quote does not then the obvious flaw is your misplaced trust in a screenshot. Newsflash: screenshots can be manipulated.

 

I'm far more interested in raw logs tho they'd require a log parser which is a complex piece of software. Target dummies are far too unreliable to provide any meaningful numbers.

 

No where in my post did I state training dummy logs. OP/FP logs will be the most beneficial.

 

Also it's not misplace trust in screenshots. It's misplace trust in my fellow man to make up numbers to prove what they want to prove. Yes screenshots can be doctored. But until there are sites like world of logs, then I'll take a screenshot over "OPs can do 1400 they are fine."

 

Now let's get back to posting parses. We can bicker in the other thread.

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http://i39.tinypic.com/2w3rkg5.jpg

 

http://i41.tinypic.com/105rxhk.jpg

 

I had trouble getting the original image the right size. I don't think anyone can read it so i posted just the parser on the second image.

 

I messed up my rotation and it lowered a bit when i stopped attacking but i can sustain around 1350-1400 or so 3 minutes into the fight.

 

This is a bit more promising. Moar parses like these please.

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I love how you state stop spreading misinformation guys, BUT operatives are not within 5% of marauders (who do 1500). Lol ok, waltz over to the sentinel thread and look through all those parses (granted, we don't know the skill levels of the players); however, most fell within the 1100-1200 range with the highest being around maybe 1400? I've seen several operatives already post pics of them hitting 1300-1400; I'm pretty sure that's within 5% of the marauder. Maybe with bloodthirst on a 1 minute test a marauder can hit 1500, but bloodthirst gets normalized in operations (so a bad thing to involve in a target dummy test).

 

Anyhow, I'm going to run some parses on my operative and marauder later tonight (granted my marauder has much better gear) to quantify the differences for myself.

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all of the parses i've seen posted have been conducted on target dummies, which is the worst means of testing the real applications of dps in a raid or pvp environment. The problem with a dummy and trying to determine at where you lie compared to a marauder is A: energy management, B: having to move and agents not having a gap closer.
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all of the parses i've seen posted have been conducted on target dummies, which is the worst means of testing the real applications of dps in a raid or pvp environment. The problem with a dummy and trying to determine at where you lie compared to a marauder is A: energy management, B: having to move and agents not having a gap closer.

 

Dummy parses are good for comparing like to like. We can see how other operatives are doing and figure out what works and what doesn't.

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Meanwhile on the Marauder forum:

 

http://ipic.su/img/img5/fs/parser.1334355784.jpg

 

1489DPS

 

http://ipic.su/img/img5/fs/parser.1334355784.jpg

 

1549DPS

....so the best confirmed Concealment DPS parse so far is 1270? LOL!

 

5% within the first should be 1414, and 1471 for the 2nd. am i surprised? not in the least.

 

while we're at it someone should pount out our crit damage increase talent affects an ability that does 280 damage, or can only be applied once every 12 seconds once in combat.

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My proprietary systems indicated that Operative DPS is 20 ~ 30% behind Anni Marauders. In addition, the Marauders provide a raid heal, can spec a short CD interrupt, have better movement, better survival, and provide a bloodlust.

 

We have removed all DPS Operatives from raiding, and the only thing that saved the Snipers was the raid wall. There's no point in having fragile, low DPS classes. My Operative, my first toon, leveled ONLY FOR PVE, is sitting on the shelf where it will remain, I wish it were otherwise, but I can't possibly sit here as a progression raid leader and ask my raiders to maximize their performance (max your companions, get all datacrons, do your dailies every day on your main and alts, etc) and then sit there on the weakest class in the game asking them to carry me.

 

All a non-healing Operative does is get carried. If you believe otherwise ("I'm super skilled but somehow magically wouldn't be super skilled at a better class") you're lying to yourself to avoid the reroll.

Edited by subrosian
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We have removed all DPS Operatives from raiding, and the only thing that saved the Snipers was the raid wall. There's no point in having fragile, low DPS classes. My Operative, my first toon, leveled ONLY FOR PVE, is sitting on the shelf where it will remain, I wish it were otherwise, but I can't possibly sit here as a progression raid leader and ask my raiders to maximize their performance (max your companions, get all datacrons, do your dailies every day on your main and alts, etc) and then sit there on the weakest class in the game asking them to carry me.

 

I like players who do things like this. When it catches on developers nerf content into the ground to stop guilds from doing things like this as nerfing content is easier than class balance. Guilds that kick entire classes is far more harmful to subscription retention than class balance issues, so issues like this get addressed faster than class balance. Keep it up, you're making content easier for future patches.

Edited by Russlem
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mara's have such high operation dummy parses because there is no miss/dodge/parry chance on the operation dummy. Mara's have 60% base accuracy with their off hand. Every attack with it hits on the dummy which will make a noticable difference.

 

But then Gunslingers should parse considerably higher than Snipers and Mercenaries considerably higher than Commandos.

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Adding my own results here. I'm mostly Rakata with a few columi level pieces like earpieces/implants. I mostly play as a healer so this is my 'off spec' set of gear

 

1284 DPS

http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=combat_2012-04-16_01_03_57_329540.txt#01_05_04_463000

 

We need more parses like this (with the ability breakdown at the bottom).

 

The problem with any parses is that they are skewed by player skill and by the players perception of what the best rotation is.

 

This second point, particularly so soon after a patch that had a major effect on a number of things which influence rotation, and when there is no Sim to fall back on for testing "optimal" rotations with the skill factor taken out, will have a huge impact on the numbers.

 

I haven't had enough time to play post-1.2 to settle on a new "rotation" yet. I have noticed that on some fights I am capping on Energy, and on others (even when it "feels" like I'm doing the same thing) I'm starved in the first few seconds.

 

There is one thing for sure: skill-cap has been raised. I'm enjoying the challenge.

 

Also, as others have noted, it's hardly worth entering a WZ with less than 700 Exp ... luckily the BM gear is just so easy to farm now!

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I like players who do things like this. When it catches on developers nerf content into the ground to stop guilds from doing things like this as nerfing content is easier than class balance.
I don't believe your comment to be true, and I don't see you backing up your comment with proof, but either way it is not his fault developers would decide the easy way out. He did what any sensible hardcore raiding guild would've done, it is exactly what I asserted in the other thread what would happen. It is exactly what I have observed in 25m hardcore raiding in "that other game" (and also witnessed personally when I raided hardcore). Amount of shamans on Paragon 25m Rag HC: 0. Amount of hunters KIN raiders 25m Spine HC: 0. Of course there were hardcore raiding guilds who kept their shaman and hunter in raid. They weren't winners either.

 

Guilds that kick entire classes is far more harmful to subscription retention than class balance issues, so issues like this get addressed faster than class balance. Keep it up, you're making content easier for future patches.
Removed from operations. Learn to read. They are free to reroll, they are free to stay as social, they are probably free to come during farm ops when all are overgeared so the operative DPS can be easily carried. He did not comment about PvP.

 

As for your nerf comment, almost 4 months after release and they already nerfed KP/EV nightmare due to people being able to get better gear (PvP BM/WH, dailies, and it already gotten easier by the week thanks to people getting better gear anyway). Also because the new ops drops rakata on normal mode.

 

Finally, I'd severely doubt it if GM of guild says: sorry, your DPS is too low due to being nerfed you are free to reroll to class of the month or stay as social people would be angry at GM instead of the person who designed the game to be this way. Don't shoot the messenger. If their decision was to unsubscribe due to this that is their decision, and we live in a free country. They could try to join an other guild, reroll, stay as social, ...

Edited by Hextasy
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My proprietary systems indicated that Operative DPS is 20 ~ 30% behind Anni Marauders. In addition, the Marauders provide a raid heal, can spec a short CD interrupt, have better movement, better survival, and provide a bloodlust.

 

We have removed all DPS Operatives from raiding, and the only thing that saved the Snipers was the raid wall. There's no point in having fragile, low DPS classes. My Operative, my first toon, leveled ONLY FOR PVE, is sitting on the shelf where it will remain, I wish it were otherwise, but I can't possibly sit here as a progression raid leader and ask my raiders to maximize their performance (max your companions, get all datacrons, do your dailies every day on your main and alts, etc) and then sit there on the weakest class in the game asking them to carry me.

 

All a non-healing Operative does is get carried. If you believe otherwise ("I'm super skilled but somehow magically wouldn't be super skilled at a better class") you're lying to yourself to avoid the reroll.

 

Sadly your mostly right but it doesn't mean it is the correct way to handle it. Bioware needs to fix this. I am not abandoning my favorite class and rolling a more raid friendly one because the company fails at game balance.

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I don't believe your comment to be true, and I don't see you backing up your comment with proof, but either way it is not his fault developers would decide the easy way out. He did what any sensible hardcore raiding guild would've done, it is exactly what I asserted in the other thread what would happen. It is exactly what I have observed in 25m hardcore raiding in "that other game" (and also witnessed personally when I raided hardcore). Amount of shamans on Paragon 25m Rag HC: 0. Amount of hunters KIN raiders 25m Spine HC: 0. Of course there were hardcore raiding guilds who kept their shaman and hunter in raid. They weren't winners either.

 

There's no elaborate studies done on player retention that are made public. The trend in a game like WoW, however has been towards easier content with the starkest difference between difficulty appear between their hardest and easiest content: Sunwell -> Naxx. From that they built up difficulty until they found a balance and made the most successful expansion in WoW's history. Cataclysm, by comparison started with harder content even in the normal modes. The result was a loss of 1.8 million subs over a year, 15% of their subscriber base.

 

Paragon isn't a normal hardcore raiding guild, they're a sponsored world competitive guild. If you think you're a member of a guild on par with Paragon, you're misinformed as guilds like that have public images to maintain and would kick you for posting on the forums like you do. Not only that, Paragon doesn't endorse class stacking, they use it as a mechanism of getting a kill a few days earlier than their competitors, not their predominant form of clearing content.

 

Removed from operations. Learn to read. They are free to reroll, they are free to stay as social, they are probably free to come during farm ops when all are overgeared so the operative DPS can be easily carried. He did not comment about PvP.

 

I can read fine. A raiding guild that kicks you from raids. They are free to be the guild's bootlick. Your opinion on how hardcore guilds actually function is laughable.

 

Finally, I'd severely doubt it if GM of guild says: sorry, your DPS is too low due to being nerfed you are free to reroll to class of the month or stay as social people would be angry at GM instead of the person who designed the game to be this way. Don't shoot the messenger. If their decision was to unsubscribe due to this that is their decision, and we live in a free country. They could try to join an other guild, reroll, stay as social, ...

 

Actually this is how guilds fall apart. The "hardcore" guild I quoted, doesn't even have SWTOR pics posted on their front page. Its Deathwing. That's all right, SWTORs only been out since December. They were probably busy recruiting to replace all the players they alienated while cancelling raids for non-attendance. Again, your opinion on how hardcore guilds actually function is laughable.

Edited by Russlem
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Paragon isn't a normal hardcore raiding guild, they're a sponsored world competitive guild. If you think you're a member of a guild on par with Paragon, you're misinformed as guilds like that have public images to maintain and would kick you for posting on the forums like you do. Not only that, Paragon doesn't endorse class stacking, they use it as a mechanism of getting a kill a few days earlier than their competitors, not their predominant form of clearing content.
Most top guilds are sponsored. What I said were examples. It is easier to get examples from top guilds, and top guilds matter whereas everything after the top 100 doesn't (in this context as they don't play competitive). Paragon is one of the many hardcore raiding guilds. I never said I was currently a hardcore raider in WoW, I went to play that game casual long ago. Paragon, like other hardcore raiding guilds, would indeed class stack if it'd get them the kill earlier:

 

Do you feel that all classes are good enough to do 8/8HM or is class stacking still helping?

 

Diivil: "Certain classes are always better in special situations than others but after the recent nerfs all classes are good enough. Class stacking is obviously always helpful but that doesn't mean it's required and it has most effect during progress raids anyway when you have to get the absolutely best performance out of the raid."

 

And:

To Kruf and Devai, how has the hunter class changed this tier in terms of relevance to progression and now, farms?

 

deva: "I think that hunters should have been buffed from the start, everybody knows that hunters doesn't scale that good with gear and all the melees got 10% AP buff including rogues and warriors who was already doing insane damage. And all the casters in our raidcomp got legendaries. Blizzard overlooked hunters cause they were strong on t11 and they weregood in t12(but not strong), and they actually tought that hunters could magically do fine in this instance too while buffing other classes, well they were wrong. If you have checked worldoflogs you know hunter wasn't that strong in the end of firelands and i dont see any reason why they didn't buff hunters too... This tier was only time i felt that i didn't want to play my hunter and all, because i felt like i wasn't carrying my weight and that gives me feeling that i just wanna vomit. The beginning of the "farm" of Dragonsoul i actually tought just quiting cause my class was absolutely **** and it wasn't fun to play at all, but then 1 month late my prayers were answered and we got buffed. Was actually fun to play on first farm raid after buffs cause i could actually compete on dps!!"

Precisely what I said, except that he did not reroll. He waited, and almost quit.

 

Source: http://manaflask.com/en/article/1571/dream-paragon-039-s-q-amp-a-answers

 

And about class stacking: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1920717229

 

I'm sure you are able to use some braincells and put marauder/sentinel raid CD into context.

 

Actually this is how guilds fall apart. The "hardcore" guild I quoted, doesn't even have SWTOR pics posted on their front page. Its Deathwing. That's all right, SWTORs only been out since December. They were probably busy recruiting to replace all the players they alienated while cancelling raids for non-attendance. Again, your opinion on how hardcore guilds actually function is laughable.
You know, entire guilds quit WoW and switched to SWTOR. People are bored with DS, too. If you got a few people in your 10m guild quit to SWTOR you have a big problem if you're playing semi hardcore or better. Edited by Hextasy
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