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Why should I feel bad about wanting to faceroll fresh 55's?


BalphoWan

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I have been going through the forums the last couple of days listening to all the flaming and the QQing about bolster and the removal of expertise from E/WH gear. I have read alot of posts in favor of the new bolster system. Those posts usually praise the attempt to eliminate the gap between a fully BIS geared PVP player and a fresh 55 with little to no PVP gear. Many of those that have taken that position often flame PVP players for wanting to roflstomp fresh level 55 players. I find myself feeling ashamed that I enjoy doing that. And this has started to bother me.

 

I came into 2.0 with half WH and half EWH gear. I am at valor rank 70. I took my licks to get there like everyone else. I have played MMO's for years, and this is the first one that I have played PVP. I have always been predominantly a PVE player (and still am). When I finally decided to jump head first into PVP, it was VERY frustrating. But with every WZ it got more and more fun, and I started to get an edge. Eventually, three of my guildies and I started to really be able to "dominate" in about 80% of the WZ's we entered. It was really fun! But more importantly, it was earned.

 

Now, I LOVE an evenly matched WZ. But, as a PVE player,my first love is the gear hunt. Without a juicy carrot hanging in front of my face, I get bored easily. It is that aspect of MMO's to which I have always been drawn. I guess that is why I was never bothered with the gap between fresh 50's and full EWH 50's prior to 2.0. There was that huge carrot of wanting to get the gear that would enable me to dominate like all of those players who facerolled me when I first started playing WZ's.

 

An now to my point. Why do I have to feel ashamed about that??? Is there honor in facerolling a noob with no PVP gear? No. But it does make you feel like the gear you took the time to earn means something; like it is powerful. And I don't feel like that is something I should have to hide. I have NEVER sought out lesser skilled/geared players. I have NEVER griefed another player in open world PVP. All I am saying is that I enjoy defeating lesser skilled/geared players sometimes when they actively and willingly engage me in combat. So...

 

MY NAME IS BALPHOWAN. I PLAY PVP. AND I LIKE TO FACEROLL NOOBS SOMETIMES.

 

[EDIT] I regret using the word "faceroll" in the title of this thread; I am choosing not to change it, but wanted to note that it established a tone in my OP that was unintended. If I were to change the tiitle, it would read "Why should I feel bad about taking advantage of the gear disparity in PVP?"

Edited by BalphoWan
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I can appreciate that.

 

The problem though with a gear gap in PvP is if a new player comes in and plays a few rounds and just get rolled, they may get frustrated and they might not come back. I get the gear progression part too. Ideally I would like to see gear progression just mean customization of tertiary stats like crit, surge and power.

 

A suggestion I made to make gear progression and a smaller gear gap was to change how items are treated in WZ's. Basically the way I think bolster should work is to give everyone in a WZ equal main stat, end. and exp. The gear progression would be from buying mods that have tertiary stats like power crit and surge on them. They would also have exp. but the exp would only function as a flag.

 

In this system top tier PvE gear would only have the base crit and surge (+ talents/set bonuses + whatever crit you get from the main stat). PvP players would have their PvP mods that increase their other stats. So PvP players would have a clear advantage but it wouldn't be huge. Plus by making the mods the deciding factor in stats it would make it easier to tweak. It would much easier to change the values on the mods than it is to rework the current bolster system.

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I can appreciate that.

 

The problem though with a gear gap in PvP is if a new player comes in and plays a few rounds and just get rolled, they may get frustrated and they might not come back. I get the gear progression part too. Ideally I would like to see gear progression just mean customization of tertiary stats like crit, surge and power.

 

A suggestion I made to make gear progression and a smaller gear gap was to change how items are treated in WZ's. Basically the way I think bolster should work is to give everyone in a WZ equal main stat, end. and exp. The gear progression would be from buying mods that have tertiary stats like power crit and surge on them. They would also have exp. but the exp would only function as a flag.

 

In this system top tier PvE gear would only have the base crit and surge (+ talents/set bonuses + whatever crit you get from the main stat). PvP players would have their PvP mods that increase their other stats. So PvP players would have a clear advantage but it wouldn't be huge. Plus by making the mods the deciding factor in stats it would make it easier to tweak. It would much easier to change the values on the mods than it is to rework the current bolster system.

 

There is definitely a balance that has to be struck. I get that. In fact, that is the reason I stayed away from PVP in MMO's for so long. The learning curve was too frustrating for me. So I definitely understand that the gear gap needed to be softened. I just still think it should be significant. I guess everyone has their opinions about what that gap needs to be. My point was that there should not be such a negative stigma about BIS gear PVP players wanting to dominate fresh level 55's. That shouldn't have to be a naughty little secret. I would be willing to bet that alot of PVP players enjoy doing that more than they would admit. And they should. For many, that's the point of taking the time to gear up.

Edited by BalphoWan
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When I finally decided to jump head first into PVP, it was VERY frustrating.

...

Now, I LOVE an evenly matched WZ. But, as a PVE player,my first love is the gear hunt.

...

Is there honor in facerolling a noob with no PVP gear? No. But it does make you feel like the gear you took the time to earn means something; like it is powerful.

 

The first of your comments I highlighted essentially answers this. The frustration that new players were experiencing was becoming detrimental to PVP as a whole. It was not frustration form L2P, learning curve, etc. It was from "unfair competitive advantage". Most matches were simply won before they were begun due to a gear advantage of one team over another. I have never played any PVP game that had given such an unfair advantage simply from gear.

 

We all like winning so it IS fun to stomp on others competitively sometimes. But is it really that you out played them?

Which brings me to your 2nd comment. If you like a competitive match then you should be a fan of the bolster system as it has produced some of the most competitive matches that I have seen. The fact that a new can come in and BE COMPETITIVE is good for PVP. It means we "veterans" cant rely on our "earned" gear but rather we are going to have to out play them. Maybe some might find out they are not as good as they thought they were when hiding behind a significant gear advantage.

 

I play PVP for the fun of putting my skill up against other players, not to play STAR WARS Barbie doll dress up. I agree it is fun to have something to work towards and it is fun to be "rewarded" with new gear. Was it fun to cut through opponents like butter and mop the floor with the other team? Sure it is at times. But if there is no real chance in loosing, there is no real thrill in victory! Something had to be done to bring the competitive balance back to PVP.

 

Should you feel "ashamed" for stomping noobs? Eh... Who knows.

But I for one gladly trade my gear advantage to compete on a more equal playing field.

 

Remember it is a game, frustrated new players who are not having fun means SWTOR dies a premature death.

So maybe in the end we have more to gain by balanced competition than we do flaunting our gear and rubbing noobs faces in the dirt.

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I get it. I like to roll over teams once in a while too. But there's is a big difference between rolling over someone because they don't know what they are doing and because they never even had a chance due to gear. Personally for me if I'm with my guild or a bunch of PUG's that way out gear the other team it's no fun. I'm a healer and if that happens no one takes any damage so I'm basically standing around not doing much.

 

A strong argument could be made either way. 1) I earned my gear so therefore I should have an advantage over those that didn't and 2) If the gear advantage is too big people will stop playing. I'm reserving judgement on this whole situation until bolster is sorted out and the devs confirm that yes, this is how we want it to work.

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You shouldn't feel bad. You took your lumps getting there, and didn't whine, complain and stomp your feet like has apparently been done until we got the great, wonderful, perfectly balanced and calculated, makes everyone happy 2.0. Or as I like to call it, "Great misadventures in Soclalism or how I learned that it's wrong to actually have to earn something."

 

If someone is going to quit as a new player or new 50 because they somehow aren't on par or near par to those who earned their stripes, well, that type of player is going to quit anyway over something. It is pathetic, sad, and suicidal to the longevity of the game to design a system that punishes those who will grind their gear and earn it, in fact, mocks them for their efforts, so as to help those who haven't gotten the gear.

 

It is ridiculous that it even got off the drawing board, much less implemented to production once the numerous problems were mentioned on PTS.

Edited by Kirtastropohe
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I remember back in EQ1 people told me I'm awesome tank and I always told them you should thank my gear for being awesome because I can do most of this stuff while totally AFK. It seems like that's the preferred method of playing for most people in PvP though. People want to thank their gear for being awesome as opposed to themselves for being awesome.
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The first of your comments I highlighted essentially answers this. The frustration that new players were experiencing was becoming detrimental to PVP as a whole. It was not frustration form L2P, learning curve, etc. It was from "unfair competitive advantage". Most matches were simply won before they were begun due to a gear advantage of one team over another. I have never played any PVP game that had given such an unfair advantage simply from gear.

 

We all like winning so it IS fun to stomp on others competitively sometimes. But is it really that you out played them?

Which brings me to your 2nd comment. If you like a competitive match then you should be a fan of the bolster system as it has produced some of the most competitive matches that I have seen. The fact that a new can come in and BE COMPETITIVE is good for PVP. It means we "veterans" cant rely on our "earned" gear but rather we are going to have to out play them. Maybe some might find out they are not as good as they thought they were when hiding behind a significant gear advantage.

 

I play PVP for the fun of putting my skill up against other players, not to play STAR WARS Barbie doll dress up. I agree it is fun to have something to work towards and it is fun to be "rewarded" with new gear. Was it fun to cut through opponents like butter and mop the floor with the other team? Sure it is at times. But if there is no real chance in loosing, there is no real thrill in victory! Something had to be done to bring the competitive balance back to PVP.

 

Should you feel "ashamed" for stomping noobs? Eh... Who knows.

But I for one gladly trade my gear advantage to compete on a more equal playing field.

 

Remember it is a game, frustrated new players who are not having fun means SWTOR dies a premature death.

So maybe in the end we have more to gain by balanced competition than we do flaunting our gear and rubbing noobs faces in the dirt.

 

It's like i said in my second post, I get that there needs to be a balance. And I really do enjoy a compettive WZ. To be honest, I like a mix. Sometimes I love a long WZ that goes down to the wire. The victory feels that much better. But I also like to be reminded that the gear I earned has placed me above the new players who haven't invested the time. At the same time, I also don't want to discourage those players from coming back. On one of the forums, someone threw out hypotheitcal statistics stating that the gear gap pre 2.0 was like 70%, and now, with the new bolster system, is around 20%. I guess i feel like I would rather it be a little higher, around 40% (to use theose hypothetical statistics as an analogy). Just my opinion. Because, remember, you can always take the time to close that gap.

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I remember back in EQ1 people told me I'm awesome tank and I always told them you should thank my gear for being awesome because I can do most of this stuff while totally AFK. It seems like that's the preferred method of playing for most people in PvP though. People want to thank their gear for being awesome as opposed to themselves for being awesome.

 

But that gear had to be earned. It was given away.

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I'm just back (three weeks or so) from a long vacation from this game. I left with a 50 Sage and 50 trooper with whatever the PvP gear was called at the time (Battlemaster, Champion?) and it was fun, but stale.

 

Now I'm back with a level 55 Juggernaut that I just levelled since I returned. Once I hit 55, I noticed that with 2 pieces of Partisan gear and mostly BH gear, I get my face rolled, nearly every WZ. It's still fun, and I plan to continue trying to get a full set of Part gear, but I can see why it would be frustrating to a new 55, in greens.

 

The people I'm up against, usually have a full set of Part gear, with a few Conq pieces thrown in, and they DESTROY us without a challenge. Is that what you wanted to do, when you set out to obtain the best PvP gear? Make WZs so easy that they aren't a challenge? I, personally won't QQ about the way that it was. I enjoyed PvP before I left.

 

I still think the gear gap is pretty substantial, regardless of what Devs are saying (that it's down to 20%, from 75%)

 

Just my 2c

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But that gear had to be earned. It was given away.

 

Looking at the numbers on level 55 bracket, unless I'm missing something, my 28K HP with Partisan gear sure looks better than the guys in 24K HP. I've no idea what they're wearing (maybe they didn't get the memo naked PvP no longer works), but it sure looks worse than what I got. The gear still gives you an advantage. It's just not like the old day where you win 1on2 and thank your EWH gear, WZ adrenal, and WZ medpack for having your back because it sure wasn't your skill that was responsible for winning.

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Looking at the numbers on level 55 bracket, unless I'm missing something, my 28K HP with Partisan gear sure looks better than the guys in 24K HP. I've no idea what they're wearing (maybe they didn't get the memo naked PvP no longer works), but it sure looks worse than what I got. The gear still gives you an advantage. It's just not like the old day where you win 1on2 and thank your EWH gear, WZ adrenal, and WZ medpack for having your back because it sure wasn't your skill that was responsible for winning.

 

I think too many people like to separate skill and gear when, more often than not, the two likely coincide. You claim that the gear and the medpacs, and not a player's skill, would enable him to be victorious in your example. But a skilled PVP player prepares in advance for the WZ, i.e., gears up and brings whatever he can to get an edge. I think separating skill and gear is an oversimiplification of the debate, because the two are really never independent of one another. Most geared PVP players are skilled, because it is hard to get that gear without acquiring skill along the way. I cannot think of one geared out PVP player that I have run into that was not also skilled at PVP.

 

[EDIT] Well... maybe one or two. ;)

Edited by BalphoWan
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I think too many people like to separate skill and gear when, more often than not, the two likely coincide. You claim that the gear and the medpacs, and not a player's skill, would come out on top in your example. But a skilled PVP player prepares in advance for the WZ, i.e., gears up and brings whatever he can to get an edge. I think separating skill and gear is an oversimiplification of the debate, because the two are really never independent of one another. Most geared PVP players are skilled, because it is hard to get that gear without acquiring skill along the way. I cannot think of one geared out PVP player that I have unr into that was not also skilled at PVP.

 

See, but that's just what has had so many people upset this last week. Sure all of the PvP gear broke, but who cares, there's a new xpac and with it a higher tier of gear...and new carrot to chase.

 

However, what did happen was that players (new, returning, and continuous alike) had a chance to strip all barriers, all advantages and disadvantages alike; simply go at PvP. What happened was that people who have ran the hamster wheel, received their carrot (gear) found out that for all of their effort, for all of their time spent PvPing...they really weren't very good.

 

What we saw were experienced level 50 PvPers, taking advantage of the naked bug and PvE stat bonuses (due to the bugged bolster mechanic) fighting in WZs and getting their butts handed to them by level 30 something players. Even experienced PvPers who weren't 55 yet (between 50 and 54) were getting destroyed by players who were in their 30s and 40s. Why was this possible? Because for all of their boasting, the seasoned PvPers actually sucked at PvP.

 

Surely this wasn't true for all of the seasoned PvPers, but for a vast number of these players it was.

 

Now lets take a look at what you said. Something about skilled PvPers taking every advantage (gear/pots, etc.). Well, that's just it isn't it. You're definition of a skilled player is someone who looks to get an edge through external means. Others would disagree and say that ALL things being equal, the player that continously WINS is the more skilled player. Right there with that disagreement is where the hang-up is, it's assumed that players that constantly win get the best gear and that gear is a symbol of their success. It isn't. Gear in this game has only one gate and that gate is time invested, not success.

 

SWTOR PvP is not like the early itterations of WoW Arenas where you actually had to WIN to get better gear. It's not like LoL, or Starcraft where you had to WIN to receive status in world competition (surely you had to put in the time, but you also had to win...putting in the time just supported one's learning curve).

 

I see where you mentioned that "... is hard to get that gear without acquiring skill along the way." and I understand that. However, it is an assumption that as of VERY recently has been proven false. PvP vets have been getting destroyed by lower level players (new players/re-rolls/alts) quite often. Factoring into all of their losses is complacency. They have had really good gear for a long time and have had plenty of noobs to beat up. Well, you don't get better and ANYTHING when you have people who aren't as good as you are to play against, you typically get worse. This is what has happened to many players.

 

So, should you feel bad about squashing a fresh 55? Not at all, it comes with the territory and the way the game is designed. What you should do is question your success. Sure, the new guy was easy, how are you doing against someone else with equal gear? How do you know whether or not you both suck? You have no way of figuring it out until the next xpac and the next levelling of the playing field.

 

So to take anything away from this remember that unless you and another player are on equal footing, you'll never know how skilled you are other than to say that "When all things were equal I could/couldn't beat that guy that time." Most geared PvPers over the last week or so have found themselves saying couldn't. Which tells you how worthwhile their time in the hamster wheel has been.

Edited by Ossos
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I think too many people like to separate skill and gear when, more often than not, the two likely coincide. You claim that the gear and the medpacs, and not a player's skill, would enable him to be victorious in your example. But a skilled PVP player prepares in advance for the WZ, i.e., gears up and brings whatever he can to get an edge. I think separating skill and gear is an oversimiplification of the debate, because the two are really never independent of one another. Most geared PVP players are skilled, because it is hard to get that gear without acquiring skill along the way. I cannot think of one geared out PVP player that I have run into that was not also skilled at PVP.

 

[EDIT] Well... maybe one or two. ;)

 

Gear is not skill. If you hand a guy 10 million credits (for augments) and 5 stacks of WZ adrenal/medpack that guy can use them nearly as well as the best player, as with this much resources you'd just use medpack the moment you fall below 65%. Usually the guys who lack skill also lacks resources but to equate the two as equivalent is essentially saying if I buy credits with money then I now have skills, because credits can most definitely get the items I mentioned above if you got enough of it.

 

Usually the guys with the gear must have some skill but people attribute way too much of their victory to skill over gear. WZ adrenal/medpack is absolutely game changing and the only thing holding you back on them is the amount of your resources you have. In fact the skill in using them mostly comes from the fact that they're fairly time consuming to get even for fairly hardcore players so you can't just waste them. If someone just hands me 5 stacks of each I'd just be chugging them down the first moment where it makes sense to.

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See, but that's just what has had so many people upset this last week. Sure all of the PvP gear broke, but who cares, there's a new xpac and with it a higher tier of gear...and new carrot to chase.

 

However, what did happen was that players (new, returning, and continuous alike) had a chance to strip all barriers, all advantages and disadvantages alike; simply go at PvP. What happened was that people who have ran the hamster wheel, received their carrot (gear) found out that for all of their effort, for all of their time spent PvPing...they really weren't very good.

 

What we saw were experienced level 50 PvPers, taking advantage of the naked bug and PvE stat bonuses (due to the bugged bolster mechanic) fighting in WZs and getting their butts handed to them by level 30 something players. Even experienced PvPers who weren't 55 yet (between 50 and 54) were getting destroyed by players who were in their 30s and 40s. Why was this possible? Because for all of their boasting, the seasoned PvPers actually sucked at PvP.

 

Surely this wasn't true for all of the seasoned PvPers, but for a vast number of these players it was.

 

Now lets take a look at what you said. Something about skilled PvPers taking every advantage (gear/pots, etc.). Well, that's just it isn't it. You're definition of a skilled player is someone who looks to get an edge through external means. Others would disagree and say that ALL things being equal, the player that continously WINS is the more skilled player. Right there with that disagreement is where the hang-up is, it's assumed that players that constantly win get the best gear and that gear is a symbol of their success. It isn't. Gear in this game has only one gate and that gate is time invested, not success.

 

SWTOR PvP is not like the early itterations of WoW Arenas where you actually had to WIN to get better gear. It's not like LoL, or Starcraft where you had to WIN to receive status in world competition (surely you had to put in the time, but you also had to win...putting in the time just supported one's learning curve).

 

I see where you mentioned that "... is hard to get that gear without acquiring skill along the way." and I understand that. However, it is an assumption that as of VERY recently has been proven false. PvP vets have been getting destroyed by lower level players (new players/re-rolls/alts) quite often. Factoring into all of their losses is complacency. They have had really good gear for a long time and have had plenty of noobs to beat up. Well, you don't get better and ANYTHING when you have people who aren't as good as you are to play against, you typically get worse. This is what has happened to many players.

 

So, should you feel bad about squashing a fresh 55? Not at all, it comes with the territory and the way the game is designed. What you should do is question your success. Sure, the new guy was easy, how are you doing against someone else with equal gear? How do you know whether or not you both suck? You have no way of figuring it out until the next xpac and the next levelling of the playing field.

 

So to take anything away from this remember that unless you and another player are on equal footing, you'll never know how skilled you are other than to say that "When all things were equal I could/couldn't beat that guy that time." Most geared PvPers over the list time have found themselves saying couldn't. Which tells you how worthwhile their time in the hamster wheel has been.

 

I get what you are saying, but I think you are making far too many assumptions. I can't say what has been happening to other PVP vets, becuase I don't know. I can say that it has been a mixed bag for me. I am back at the bottom of the PVP gear chase, and I have gotten facerolled alot, but most of those that facerolled me were skilled and had good gear. I was occasionally able to put down a few with good gear, and they may be the vets you are talking about. But like I said in my last reply, I think you are oversimplifying skill and gear, and the interplay between the two. I just don't think you are giving alot of the PVP vets in this game enough credit. I know a few guidlies who are doing okay in PVP without the gear, and it's because of their skill. I like to think I am one of those players.

 

You are correct in that all it takes is time invested to get the gear. And you are correct in that some players get the gear without acquiring skill along the way. But I THINK that is the vast minority of geared PVP players. And unlike you, I am not willing to state that as a fact, becuase I don't have proof. I just have my own experiences and guildies to go by. Quite a few of them began PVP with me for the first time. And they all became skilled along the way. Like I said before, I would be willing to bet, but not definitively state, that the acquisition of gear and skill in PVP go hand in hand more often than not.

 

But I don't want to stray too far from my OP, which is that there is no shame in enjoying facerolling a fresh 55, whether it be from skill or gear. Either way, you took the time to earn the skill and/or the gear.

Edited by BalphoWan
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There is definitely a balance that has to be struck. I get that. In fact, that is the reason I stayed away from PVP in MMO's for so long. The learning curve was too frustrating for me. So I definitely understand that the gear gap needed to be softened. I just still think it should be significant. I guess everyone has their opinions about what that gap needs to be. My point was that there should not be such a negative stigma about BIS gear PVP players wanting to dominate fresh level 55's. That shouldn't have to be a naughty little secret. I would be willing to bet that alot of PVP players enjoy doing that more than they would admit. And they should. For many, that's the point of taking the time to gear up.

 

But why? Wouldn't it feel better to go against people equally geared/skilled as yourself so that when you do come out on top you know that you ARE the better player. I never understood that in life or in games.

 

Why go after the easy target? Why not go after the harder target and feel better rewarded because you actually accomplished something other than picking on the weak, so to speak.

 

Either way, I'm ok with starting off being the guy being beat on because of my bad gear and turning it around once I get better gear. Really, I think people should know that until you get better at this game, or any game, you can expect to be stomped if you are in bad gear. If you have Bis gear after and still suck then you know it's not the gear and it's you instead.

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The issue is they've implemented a system that absolutely has screwed the pootch. Whichever way you llke PVP, can anyone really say this 2.0 is working properly? Of course not. If they're going to change the dynamic of PVP to the extent they have, they darn well should have taken their time and gotten it right.

 

I guess they are hedging their bets and assuming that they will have far more "new" players who will like the handouts they've been given than established players who will leave based on what's going on. I think that's a serious miscalculation, but heck, miscalculation is apparently what they do best.

 

I'm sorry to be so callous about it, cause I know people are working hard at their jobs and in a very profession in which to please people, but what's gone on off late is beyond acceptable and I'm sick of it.

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But why? Wouldn't it feel better to go against people equally geared/skilled as yourself so that when you do come out on top you know that you ARE the better player. I never understood that in life or in games.

 

Why go after the easy target? Why not go after the harder target and feel better rewarded because you actually accomplished something other than picking on the weak, so to speak.

 

Either way, I'm ok with starting off being the guy being beat on because of my bad gear and turning it around once I get better gear. Really, I think people should know that until you get better at this game, or any game, you can expect to be stomped if you are in bad gear. If you have Bis gear after and still suck then you know it's not the gear and it's you instead.

 

Because if the fights are actually on even ground then the average person is going to lose 50% of the time.

 

I remember seeing a saying like 'on average our guys are above average' somewhere. Everyone thinks they're above the average but obviously that cannot be the case. With the Bolster change I see the premades on the opposing side losing far more than before, and since people on my side still can't seem to figure out that leaving nobody to defend a node is a bad idea, unless those premades that rolled us before suddenly got a lot worse, it's pretty clear that gear was indeed responsible for a signficant portion of their dominance.

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You shouldn't feel bad. You took your lumps getting there, and didn't whine, complain and stomp your feet like has apparently been done until we got the great, wonderful, perfectly balanced and calculated, makes everyone happy 2.0. Or as I like to call it, "Great misadventures in Soclalism or how I learned that it's wrong to actually have to earn something."

 

If someone is going to quit as a new player or new 50 because they somehow aren't on par or near par to those who earned their stripes, well, that type of player is going to quit anyway over something. It is pathetic, sad, and suicidal to the longevity of the game to design a system that punishes those who will grind their gear and earn it, in fact, mocks them for their efforts, so as to help those who haven't gotten the gear.

 

It is ridiculous that it even got off the drawing board, much less implemented to production once the numerous problems were mentioned on PTS.

 

 

 

This post has some glaring errors in it. When I started at launch... We started equally. And as time went on the gap got bigger. I didn't even realize how big it was till I rolled an Alt and was like wt*. It is not fun, or fair, to have new pvp players thrown into a match with not just a skill discrepancy but a a huge gear gap. I'm taking about a gap so large that regardless of your skill level you can't overcome it. I experienced that as well when I had to leave for a month or two for work...

 

You want no bolster, fine. Make it so that if your gear is above a certain level you can only que with similarly geared players. I guarantee you'll be on here in 1 week complaining of how long the que times are... While the "lower gear people" will be on here talking about how great pvp is now.

 

You earn your stripes by playing matches, not by getting better gear and beating on people who don't have a chance. I found no amusement in that. Awesome... There's the same poor kid trying to play the game.... 3-4 GCD later he's dead... Yea for me. That was hard. I pushed 4 buttons and burned through all his def cooldowns, I'm awesome. I beat this new kid... Who had 16k health. I'm the man. I'm so good at pvp.

 

Seriously? and btw, if you don't live at home with your parents or in a dorm, and have a career and a family you can't play 3 hours a day to get the best gear in a week. Does that mean you soul don't be able to play or contribute to pvp? I bet the majority of the subscribers fall into this group. BW is a business they need and should continue to cater to the majority of their clientele, not the overly vocal minority, who have egos to stroke.

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Why go after the easy target? Why not go after the harder target and feel better rewarded because you actually accomplished something other than picking on the weak, so to speak.

 

Either way, I'm ok with starting off being the guy being beat on because of my bad gear and turning it around once I get better gear. Really, I think people should know that until you get better at this game, or any game, you can expect to be stomped if you are in bad gear. If you have Bis gear after and still suck then you know it's not the gear and it's you instead.

 

I think all these people championing the supposed "skill beats all" argument are the ones actually enjoying picking on the weak. They weren't able to quite dominate as much against the lesser skilled, but well geared masses, but now they can. If skill is as apparently rare as everyone is saying, then they have designed a system that now unfairly rewards the skilled/punishes the unskilled much more than the old system ever rewarded the supposedly unskilled players with good gear.

 

In fact, it's worse. Before, anyone could eliminate the advantage simply by grinding out the gear. Now, the only people who can max their capabilities in the WZ are the mad scientists who know how to mix and match (or which mod slots to empty) in this crazy, bastardized system we now have. That sound like something a casual, or "non-skilled" player is going ot be able to do?

 

I'm not sure how this isn't clear to everyone.

Edited by Kirtastropohe
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But why? Wouldn't it feel better to go against people equally geared/skilled as yourself so that when you do come out on top you know that you ARE the better player. I never understood that in life or in games.

 

Why go after the easy target? Why not go after the harder target and feel better rewarded because you actually accomplished something other than picking on the weak, so to speak.

 

Either way, I'm ok with starting off being the guy being beat on because of my bad gear and turning it around once I get better gear. Really, I think people should know that until you get better at this game, or any game, you can expect to be stomped if you are in bad gear. If you have Bis gear after and still suck then you know it's not the gear and it's you instead.

 

Why? Because it provides me with a tangible reward for having put in my time to get the gear. Gear has to give you an edge. Otherwise, why try to acquire it? I don't like going after the easy target. Well honestly, I like a little of both. I love going against someone of equal skill and equal gear. I also love going against some players with good gear who are not as skilled to take them down a peg sometimes. But I also think I should be able to faceroll a SKILLED fresh 55 who hasn't taken the time to get the gear like I have. That is the carrot, and without it I wouldn't take the time to grind the gear. I am not sying there is any honor it it. I just don't think I should be ashamed of enjoying it. I went throught it, and it only made me want to get the gear more.

 

Also, when I am in a WZ, I don't take the time to find someone who is an "easy target." I go after opposing players based on strategy and what is going on in the WZ at the time. I don't do open workd PVP, b/c I am on a PVE server. During the Gree event in Ilum, I NEVER griefed lesser geared/skilled players. What I was saying is that when I faceroll someone in a WZ, and it is because they didn't have the gear that I did, I enjoy it. I didn't seek it out. But i enjoyed it because it makes me feel like the gear I worked hard to acquire was worth it.

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This post has some glaring errors in it. When I started at launch... We started equally. And as time went on the gap got bigger. I didn't even realize how big it was till I rolled an Alt and was like wt*. It is not fun, or fair, to have new pvp players thrown into a match with not just a skill discrepancy but a a huge gear gap. I'm taking about a gap so large that regardless of your skill level you can't overcome it. I experienced that as well when I had to leave for a month or two for work...

 

You want no bolster, fine. Make it so that if your gear is above a certain level you can only que with similarly geared players. I guarantee you'll be on here in 1 week complaining of how long the que times are... While the "lower gear people" will be on here talking about how great pvp is now.

 

You earn your stripes by playing matches, not by getting better gear and beating on people who don't have a chance. I found no amusement in that. Awesome... There's the same poor kid trying to play the game.... 3-4 GCD later he's dead... Yea for me. That was hard. I pushed 4 buttons and burned through all his def cooldowns, I'm awesome. I beat this new kid... Who had 16k health. I'm the man. I'm so good at pvp.

 

Seriously? and btw, if you don't live at home with your parents or in a dorm, and have a career and a family you can't play 3 hours a day to get the best gear in a week. Does that mean you soul don't be able to play or contribute to pvp? I bet the majority of the subscribers fall into this group. BW is a business they need and should continue to cater to the majority of their clientele, not the overly vocal minority, who have egos to stroke.

 

First off, I understand what you are saying. I really do empathize with your post. I would also like to add that I work 50 hours per week, and have two children. So i had to go through the gear grind slowly like yourself, and I took my beatings in the beginning for a while. And i am not saying I like "beating on people who don't have a chance." If i did, I would have griefed people during the Gree event (I am on a PVE server, so open world PVP is limited, i.e., nonexistent, other than during the Gree event on Ilum). All I was saying was that when I am fighting someone in a WZ, and they go down quickly because my gear or skill far surpassed them because they just started PVP, I enjoy it sometimes. It makes me feel good to know that the time I spent increasing my gear and/or my skill was not for nothing. If it was always a fight down to the wire and evenly matched, I would feel like the gear hunt was for nothing. But that doesn't mean I don't like a fair fight. I LOVE it. I like a mix. And I think most probably feel the same way. But that is just my opinion, and an unsubstanitated presumption.

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Assuming completely mirror matchups (otherwise class matchup can be a much bigger factor) with equal gear, skill is what lets you win maybe 6 out of 10 or 3 out of 4 instead of just 1 out of 2 against your opponent.

 

It's because skill actually doesn't get you very much in this game that people need gear as a crutch. With EWH gear, WZ adrenal, and WZ medpack on my back I can comfortably win 9 out of 10 in some matchups. Now that the gear advantage is lessened it's only about 3 out of 4. It you take away my medpack and adrenal it's going to go even closer to 1 out of 2. This is supposed to be a good thing. I shouldn't be winning because I have better/more drugs than the enemy.

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You shouldn't, only Failware should feel bad. This is a game, if players can kill they have the right to and enjoying it is the whole point of the experience!

 

I remember a term from Non-carebear PvP games, "red = dead", now its "pvp on old the republic = dead"

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Lol I feel like I'm in group therapy.

 

(Speaking mainly from a pre-2.0 standpoint)

I kill noobs because it's funny to see them rage. It's not that I can't take down the awesome geared people, because I can. Sure it's fun for me too, but killing noobs is... a different kind of fun. To further my opinions on this, I have ran the wheel and gotten the gear. I've taken 2 on 1 and won. I've taken 3 on 1, and died on the final target. I can take most people solo. It's a combonation of I know my class/rotations and my gear was good. Gear is slightly less important because I've seen people dominate in full recruit vs full EWH before.

 

What it boils down to for me is I like killing, regardless of who. I often challenge the best players on my server just because fighting them (winning or losing) helps improve my skill as a player. But I'm not above killing complete noobs either.

 

In War, Victory. In Peace, Vigilance. In Death, Sacrifice.

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