jovianus Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 (edited) Honestly I enjoyed the movie. She took the name skywalker because not only where the skywalkers the only people she could consider parents but she also loved their son.. Uh, no. Everyone she cared about and had an actual bond with was a Solo. Luke was just a grumpy old man who refused to help her, and he was the only one for whom the name 'Skywalker' meant anything. Leia was always Leia Organa, daughter of Bail Organa, and for her 'Anakin Skywalker' was only ever Darth Vader, her enemy and a figure of evil. Even Ben wasn't interested in Anakin, he wanted to be like and 'finish the work' of Vader. But of course taking the name 'Solo' wouldn't have been sufficient fanservice. The fact that it's on Tatooine at all is a symptom of that. Tatooine means nothing to Rey. Tatooine meant nothing to Leia. Even Luke, way back when we're first introduced to him, wants nothing more than to get off of Tatooine, and the only link he had to it, his aunt and uncle, got brutally murdered by the Empire decades ago. But the fans know and like Tatooine, so obviously that's where Luke and Leia need to be memorialized Edited December 31, 2019 by jovianus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nee-Elder Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 (edited) Uh, no. Everyone she cared about and had an actual bond with was a Solo. Luke was just a grumpy old man who refused to help her, and he was the only one for whom the name 'Skywalker' meant anything. Leia was always Leia Organa, daughter of Bail Organa, and for her 'Anakin Skywalker' was only ever Darth Vader, her enemy and a figure of evil. Even Ben wasn't interested in Anakin, he wanted to be like and 'finish the work' of Vader. But of course taking the name 'Solo' wouldn't have been sufficient fanservice. The fact that it's on Tattooine at all is a symptom of that. Tattooine means nothing to Rey. Tattooine meant nothing to Leia. Even Luke, way back when we're first introduced to him, wants nothing more than to get off of Tattooine, and the only link he had to it, his aunt and uncle, got brutally murdered by the Empire decades ago. But the fans know and like Tattooine, so obviously that's where Luke and Leia need to be memorialized I must admit, jaded as you may very well be....i completely agree with your post/points. Although you did mis-spell 'Tatooine' But seriously: How could J.J. Abrams----a self proclaimed fan & student of most things STAR WARS---have missed (or ignored? ) such obvious plot/lore holes? Was it just a simple case of too much pressure from DISNEY? Or just too many writer-cooks in the film-kitchen ? p.s. I wonder what George Lucas thinks about Ep. 9 ........? Edited December 30, 2019 by Nee-Elder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirana Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 (edited) I must admit, jaded as you may very well be....i completely agree with your post/points. Although you did mis-spell 'Tatooine' But seriously: How could J.J. Abrams----a self proclaimed fan & student of most things STAR WARS---have missed (or ignored? ) such obvious plot/lore holes? Was it just a simple case of too much pressure from DISNEY? Or just too many writer-cooks in the film-kitchen ? p.s. I wonder what George Lucas thinks about Ep. 9 ........? I think that's the key right there. Disney wanted to bring it back to its origins. J.J. can't be and is hopefully not that ignorant. Edited December 31, 2019 by Pirana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cunctatorg Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 (edited) Why Tatooine?!? It seems pretty simple to me: Tatooine is the homeland of the, let's say, patriarch/creator of that -very strong in the Force and utterly influential- Skywalker family, not just of all this Saga... Anakin had been raised on Tatooine, his mother died there and this is where he buried her. The Jedi -namely Jedi Master (Knight?) Qui-Gon Jinn and his, then, Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi- met, found Anakin Skywalker on Tatooine... Luke Skywalker had been also raised on Tatooine and one of the last Jedi, now Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi, "met" him there, while living for two decades -as a hermit- on this planet in order to remotely guard Luke. Obi-Wan's connection to the story of the Skywalker family is fundamental and even himself had formed too many essential connections with this planet... Furthermore they both met Han Solo there in order to escape their hunters and join the Rebel Alliance . Rey's emotions about Han Solo and his son aside, she has eventually Chewbacca -and only him- in order to speak about the story and rise of Skywalkers... And Chewbacca himself met both Obi-Wan and Luke (at least, for the first time both of them together) on this planet, his other stories and memories aside... Regarding Leia, Alderaan is no more; there is only the planet where both her father and her brother had been raised and the planet where her husband met her brother in order to eventually join her... And it was Leia's attempt to reach Obi-Wan on Tatooine that set in motion the eventual meeting of Luke, Obi-Wan and Han Solo and the relevant ... Trilogy. Therefore it seems pretty clear to me that ... this is the place, gentlemen! Why Skywalker?!? (i) because her parents utterly denounced their connection to Palpatine and the Palpatines' legacy and (ii) the strong -or strongest- emotional connections, relationships and even Force bonds aside, three members of the Skywalker family had sacrificed themselves in order to help her find her way, make her choices and create herself, succeed and even to keep her alive... As a result of all these sacrifices, no known descendant of Anakin Skywalker is alive, Palpatine is no more and Rey is alive and determined to keep alive their legacy; hence Skywalker! Edited December 31, 2019 by cunctatorg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jovianus Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 Why Tatooine?!? It seems pretty simple to me: Tatooine is the homeland of the, let's say, patriarch/creator of that -very strong in the Force and utterly influential- Skywalker family, not just of all this Saga... Anakin had been raised on Tatooine, his mother died there and this is where he buried her. The Jedi -namely Jedi Master (Knight?) Qui-Gon Jinn and his, then, Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi- met, found Anakin Skywalker on Tatooine... Luke Skywalker had been also raised on Tatooine and one of the last Jedi, now Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi, "met" him there, while living for two decades -as a hermit- on this planet in order to remotely guard Luke. Obi-Wan's connection to the story of the Skywalker family is fundamental and even himself had formed too many essential connections with this planet... Furthermore they both met Han Solo there in order to escape their hunters and join the Rebel Alliance . Rey's emotions about Han Solo and his son aside, she has eventually Chewbacca -and only him- in order to speak about the story and rise of Skywalkers... And Chewbacca himself met both Obi-Wan and Luke (at least, for the first time both of them together) on this planet, his other stories and memories aside... Regarding Leia, Alderaan is no more; there is only the planet where both her father and her brother had been raised and the planet where her husband met her brother in order to eventually join her... And it was Leia's attempt to reach Obi-Wan on Tatooine that set in motion the eventual meeting of Luke, Obi-Wan and Han Solo and the relevant ... Trilogy. Therefore it seems pretty clear to me that ... this is the place, gentlemen! Why Skywalker?!? (i) because her parents utterly denounced their connection to Palpatine and the Palpatines' legacy and (ii) the strong -or strongest- emotional connections, relationships and even Force bonds aside, three members of the Skywalker family had sacrificed themselves in order to help her find her way, make her choices and create herself, succeed and even to keep her alive... As a result of all these sacrifices, no known descendant of Anakin Skywalker is alive, Palpatine is no more and Rey is alive and determined to keep alive their legacy; hence Skywalker! Uh, yes, thank you for the detailed explanation of all the reasons Tatooine and Skywalker are important to the FANS, not to the characters themselves...but that was kind of my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nee-Elder Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 Uh, yes, thank you for the detailed explanation of all the reasons Tatooine and Skywalker are important to the FANS, not to the characters themselves...but that was kind of my point. hehe , By the way: umm what the heck happened to Benecio Del Toro's "smuggler/slicer" character from Ep. 8 ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirana Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 Why Tatooine?!? It seems pretty simple to me: Tatooine is the homeland of the, let's say, patriarch/creator of that -very strong in the Force and utterly influential- Skywalker family, not just of all this Saga... Anakin had been raised on Tatooine, his mother died there and this is where he buried her. The Jedi -namely Jedi Master (Knight?) Qui-Gon Jinn and his, then, Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi- met, found Anakin Skywalker on Tatooine... Luke Skywalker had been also raised on Tatooine and one of the last Jedi, now Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi, "met" him there, while living for two decades -as a hermit- on this planet in order to remotely guard Luke. Obi-Wan's connection to the story of the Skywalker family is fundamental and even himself had formed too many essential connections with this planet... Furthermore they both met Han Solo there in order to escape their hunters and join the Rebel Alliance . Rey's emotions about Han Solo and his son aside, she has eventually Chewbacca -and only him- in order to speak about the story and rise of Skywalkers... And Chewbacca himself met both Obi-Wan and Luke (at least, for the first time both of them together) on this planet, his other stories and memories aside... Regarding Leia, Alderaan is no more; there is only the planet where both her father and her brother had been raised and the planet where her husband met her brother in order to eventually join her... And it was Leia's attempt to reach Obi-Wan on Tatooine that set in motion the eventual meeting of Luke, Obi-Wan and Han Solo and the relevant ... Trilogy. Therefore it seems pretty clear to me that ... this is the place, gentlemen! Why Skywalker?!? (i) because her parents utterly denounced their connection to Palpatine and the Palpatines' legacy and (ii) the strong -or strongest- emotional connections, relationships and even Force bonds aside, three members of the Skywalker family had sacrificed themselves in order to help her find her way, make her choices and create herself, succeed and even to keep her alive... As a result of all these sacrifices, no known descendant of Anakin Skywalker is alive, Palpatine is no more and Rey is alive and determined to keep alive their legacy; hence Skywalker! All this does is prove jovianus' point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cunctatorg Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 (edited) Uh, yes, thank you for the detailed explanation of all the reasons Tatooine and Skywalker are important to the FANS, not to the characters themselves...but that was kind of my point. In my -not so humble opinion- and imho also, I explained quite convincingly and clearly why the planet Tatooine (and particularly that given place of it) and the name Skywalker should be utterly important to Rey herself. After all, it's Rey who fell in absolute love with the only known grand-child of Anakin Skywalker, I ain't sure that many fans ... feel for Ben Solo what his very father does feel... It goes without saying that Rey has extremely strong feelings also for Leia ... Organa, the daughter of ... Bail Organa who has been a (light-saber crafting) Force-User (rhetorical: because she was the daughter of ... Bail Organa?!?) and not just because she was the mother of the man who sacrificed himself in order to bring his beloved Rey back to life, not only because she was the sister of Luke Skywalker etc, etc. etc.... To put it differently (otherwise?!) Rey must be immeasurably more attached to all Skywalkers and the Skywalker legacy than the more dedicated SW fan! Hence Tatooine is the place for her to bury the light-sabers of the twin children of Anakin Skywalker, a.k.a. Darth Vader, the sole and great precursor of the Force pair of Ben Solo/Kylo Ren and Rey herself!!... Isn't all that clear enough?!? Please, don't ... provoke a poor fan of the Arts from Athens, Greece (in order) to become an advertiser of Disney's last SW movie ... and even Disney's (quite controversial and clearly unbalanced) SW Trilogy!... The motivation of this ... wish of mine to you (i.e. "please, don't provoke" etc) it's not that I ain't in Disney's payroll; it's because I believe (or hope) that you could do better than me when it comes to ... "that issue"!!... The same goes for honorable Pirana ... upstairs... I don't like also to explain something quite obvious, I haven't plenty of time for type-writing though I enjoy to make some practice in English!... Happy New Year!! Edited December 31, 2019 by cunctatorg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirana Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 (edited) In my -not so humble opinion- and imho also, I explained quite convincingly and clearly why the planet Tatooine (and particularly that given place of it) and the name Skywalker should be utterly important to Rey herself. After all, it's Rey who fell in absolute love with the only known grand-child of Anakin Skywalker, I ain't sure that many fans ... feel for Ben Solo what his very father does feel... It goes without saying that Rey has extremely strong feelings also for Leia ... Organa, the daughter of ... Bail Organa who has been a (light-saber crafting) Force-User (rhetorical: because she was the daughter of ... Bail Organa?!?) and not just because she was the mother of the man who sacrificed himself in order to bring his beloved Rey back to life, not only because she was the sister of Luke Skywalker etc, etc. etc.... To put it differently (otherwise?!) Rey must be immeasurably more attached to all Skywalkers and the Skywalker legacy than the more dedicated SW fan! Hence Tatooine is the place for her to bury the light-sabers of the twin children of Anakin Skywalker, a.k.a. Darth Vader, the sole and great precursor of the Force pair of Ben Solo/Kylo Ren and Rey herself!!... Isn't all that clear enough?!? Please, don't ... provoke a poor fan of the Arts from Athens, Greece (in order) to become an advertiser of Disney's last SW movie ... and even Disney's (quite controversial and clearly unbalanced) SW Trilogy!... The motivation of this ... wish of mine to you (i.e. "please, don't provoke" etc) it's not that I ain't in Disney's payroll; it's because I believe (or hope) that you could do better than me when it comes to ... "that issue"!!... The same goes for honorable Pirana ... upstairs... I don't like also to explain something quite obvious, I haven't plenty of time for type-writing though I enjoy to make some practice in English!... Happy New Year!! The only thing clear in your explanation is not looking at the big picture and you throwing out your heritage as if that's relevant to the discussion. That's like the Hollywood star getting pulled over by the police and telling them, "do you know who I am?'' If you want to go with your thought process though, Rey could have also taken the name of Solo. It was Ben Solo she had feelings for, it was Han Solo that she watched die and it was Leia Organa, Ben's mother, that trained her, bloodline or not. It works both ways and both are opinions. It's clear that Disney wants to carry on the Skywalker name because it's synonymous with the Star Wars brand. It's very possible, they'll even continue on with Daisy Ridley as Rey in a future trilogy, if not her offspring at some point and continue with the name of Skywalker, and someone going to retrieve those sabers on Tat. The naming of the film made it pretty obvious, they're not done with the Skywalker name. This is nothing more than Disney making a smart business decision, especially after their Solo film nearly flopped at the box office. Their net for the Solo movie was only around $100 million, so it only makes sense to carry on the name of Skywalker and not Solo, especially with the name Skywalker being a staple throughout the trilogies. Hypothetically, a Rey Skywalker film will outsell a Rey Solo film every day of the week. This is a business and it's about money. Edited December 31, 2019 by Pirana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cunctatorg Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 (edited) @ Pirana; Obviously you have a strong point, I can't refuse this fact and I don't want to... However I understand that -from Rey's point of view- the big picture was about the legacy of the Skywalker family, to make use of their abilities, moreover to endanger and eventually sacrifice themselves in order to prevent the triumph of the Dark Side and, eventually, Palpatine's dominion of evil. See "Be with me!"... From this point of view Force Powers really count, training in Force powers is of fundamental importance. I would agree with you that this could be of secondary importance, however the personification of this struggle wasn't Han Solo, the person who set the foundation for Palpatine's eventual failure was -above all- Anakin Skywalker ... sacrificing himself!! Without his sacrifice, Luke and Leia would be very soon "one with the Force" and the same goes for Han Solo, Chewbacca, Lando and many more; hence no place for the birth of Ben Solo... Therefore it would be a form of highest hypocrisy -from Rey's part- to ignore the Skywalker legacy and to name her trainers: Leia Solo, Luke, brother of Leia Solo and consider the sacrifices of both of them as part of the Han Solo legacy of sacrifice; Rey should understand very well that all these persons had followed the path of Obi-Wan Kenobi and other Jedi, who's epitome became Anakin Skywalker (newest addition: "Be with me!" initially had to do with Rey's need for answers in a series of extremely important questions; finally it had to do with Rey's deepest desire to make real her choice to the aforementioned, already answered, questions...; all that had to do with the Jedi and the ... Force, neither Han Solo nor ... Bobba Fett) and only him, later herself... Rey Kenobi is out of the question because, first of all, Rey never met Obi-Wan or any descendant of his; secondly because Obi-Wan wasn't strong enough to defeat Palpatine ...; Palpatine was defeated neither by Obi-Wan, Yoda or Han Solo but, firstly, by Anakin Skywalker and, finally, by the Force pair of her and Ben Solo, with the assistance of the Jedi of the past, namely the light side of the Force, so to speak... But this is also of secondary importance; the crucial point is that Leia, Luke and even Ben Solo -as such- clearly defined themselves as members of the Skywalker legacy and they have been defined by this very legacy... Edited January 1, 2020 by cunctatorg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nee-Elder Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 It's clear that Disney wants to carry on the Skywalker name because it's synonymous with the Star Wars brand. It's very possible, they'll even continue on with Daisy Ridley as Rey in a future trilogy, if not her offspring at some point and continue with the name of Skywalker, and someone going to retrieve those sabers on Tat. The naming of the film made it pretty obvious, they're not done with the Skywalker name. This is nothing more than Disney making a smart business decision, especially after their Solo film nearly flopped at the box office. Their net for the Solo movie was only around $100 million, so it only makes sense to carry on the name of Skywalker and not Solo, especially with the name Skywalker being a staple throughout the trilogies. Hypothetically, a Rey Skywalker film will outsell a Rey Solo film every day of the week. This is a business and it's about money. AGREE , excellent (and logical) points imo. p.s. Still no one has been able to answer my other post lol --> http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9809308#post9809308 ..../ponder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cunctatorg Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) Hehe... By the way: umm..., what the heck happened to Benicio Del Toro's "smuggler/slicer" character from Ep. 8??? All in due time! I'll give some part of my answer by asking another question, a rhetorical one: what (the heck) had happened (story-wise...) to the, also great, glorious, even emblematic actor Max von Sydow ... from Ep. VII?!? Why to pay such an actor in order just to say one-two lines and then be beheaded?!? The answer, of course, is quite obvious... The Disney bosses (and co.) approached the whole situation with one main purpose; to satisfy the shareholders of the Corporation asap, nothing else... Everything else has been of secondary, at best, importance!!... It's quite understandable but this is just the diplomatic version of this opinion of mine; there is another version, a ... vulgar one, speaking about greedy artistic crooks, artistic "white slavers", "bounty hunters" at best!!... All that, either diplomatic or vulgar, is just a subjective expression of disappointment, nothing more. The really interesting thing about all that is that (the -artistically- cheapest) TFA grossed more than two billion dollars, thus TLJ (containing a parody of the emblematic SW character Luke Skywalker and cheapening Yoda...) grossed less than 1.2 billion dollars and the (by far imho) best movie of this Trilogy is going to gross less than one billion dollars... The important question -for Disney shareholders- is, thus, the following: does Bob Iger's explanation (too many movies in a very short time interval) really holds or is it mostly an excuse for the loss of one, even two billion dollars?!? Here another important question arises: is that loss -in principle- curable, was that loss -in principle- unavoidable or was it avoidable?!? Are there story-writers, directors, script-writers etc. who are able to create and deliver something better enough in order to avoid the loss of, at least, one billion dollars?!? Assuming there are, is it feasible to spot them?!? There is another issue here: artistic "utter-garbage", a cheapest, politically naive and ultra-populist movie like "Avatar" grossed more than two billions or so, at least its first Episode... What about the next Episodes? However another "pile of (artistic) garbage" like all recent "Star Trek" episodes keeps grossing much less, in fact too little... On the contrary -and speaking, by the way, about Benicio del Toro's business- this great actor and artist took place (namely took part, participated) in two really greatest movies, two masterpieces! However both "Sicarios" grossed less than one hundred million dollars, which is a clear evidence (for me at least) about the true quality of the audiences... From my point of view they rushed indeed the scripts but they also failed to keep enough balance. They need to make contact: (i) with the "majority" of the fanbase, (ii) with the members of the fanbase who hate Jar-Jar Binks, 'cause they unconsciously realize that they aren't like any Jedi Knight or Sith Warrior, they are like Jar-Jar ... at best!... That's my explanation for the vast majority of "Jar-Jar Binks haters"; SW:EpI;TPM was a true masterpiece but they focused not at Darth Maul, Senator Palpatine, Padme, little Anakin, young Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi or Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn and the appearance of the Jedi Council, they focused at Jar-Jar!!... Why?!? My answer is simple and clear enough... (iii) with the members of the fanbase who desire to see a truly epic movie, not a fraud... (iv) with the members of the fanbase -and the audiences- which desire to see not only a great movie about existential tragedies but also an allegory about the social and political reality... (v) with the audiences who desire to watch a ... "consistent" and "cohesive", "loopholes" free, "Space Opera"!!... (vI) with the audiences that want to watch a great and funny movie... (vii) with the audiences that desire to watch a real, great Tragedy, projected at the future [cf. (iv)]... (viii) with the audiences consisted of children (because they do pay one ticket now and they will grow up...) and their parents, namely families, not to mention our childish self... (ix) with the (large) audiences, mostly consisted of immature, a little-bit ridiculous and -perhaps- unstable spectators... (x) with the (considerable) homophobic (or otherwise obsessed) audiences and the (considerable) pro-gay (or otherwise obsessed) audiences... By the way, all of Celine Sciamma's last movie, "Portrait of a woman on fire" is a rare gem, a greatest, perfect artistic etc. achievement!! Unbelievable perfection... (xi) etc... George Lucas had succeed to (conceive, create and) deliver two pairs of, more or less, balanced Trilogies! The 1999-2005 Trilogy was much more balanced from the old one and it was its success that eventually "cemented" the magnitude of the SW status, however he could do even better... In my -not so humble- opinion Star Wars "works" like the video-game SW:KotOR2;TSL and the comic SW:TOR;BotE are real masterpieces but that's just about my taste... Regarding both of them, their creators made considerable effort to erase inconsistencies, various loopholes and such, in fact they had been extremely cautious about these issues though the aforementioned aspect is not the strong point of their masterpieces!!... With respect to all that, the truth is that KotOR considerably helped the SW status also ... and that you can't always repeat with success KotOR and such, you are in need of various and new concepts and recipes also; SW:TOR is something else, it's an MMORPG, the audiences came here in order to satisfy different needs, some SW fanbase needs too of course... Perhaps the Disney guys consider such a balance ... desired but not feasible. We'll see... Happy New Year! Edited January 1, 2020 by cunctatorg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirana Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) All in due time! I'll give some part of my answer by asking another question, a rhetorical one: what (the heck) had happened (story-wise...) to the, also great, glorious, even emblematic actor Max von Sydow ... from Ep. VII?!? Why to pay such an actor in order just to say one-two lines and then be beheaded?!? The answer, of course, is quite obvious... The Disney bosses (and co.) approached the whole situation with one main purpose; to satisfy the shareholders of the Corporation asap, nothing else... Everything else has been of secondary, at best, importance!!... It's quite understandable but this is just the diplomatic version of this opinion of mine; there is another version, a ... vulgar one, speaking about greedy artistic crooks, artistic "white slavers", "bounty hunters" at best!!... All that, either diplomatic or vulgar, is just a subjective expression of disappointment, nothing more. The really interesting thing about all that is that (the -artistically- cheapest) TFA grossed more than two billion dollars, thus TLJ (containing a parody of the emblematic SW character Luke Skywalker and cheapening Yoda...) grossed less than 1.2 billion dollars and the (by far imho) best movie of this Trilogy is going to gross less than one billion dollars... The important question -for Disney shareholders- is, thus, the following: does Bob Iger's explanation (two many movies in a very short time interval) really holds or is it mostly an excuse for the loss of one, even two billion dollars?!? Here another important question arises: is that loss -in principle- curable, was that loss -in principle- unavoidable or was it avoidable?!? Are there story-writers, directors, script-writers etc. who are able to create and deliver something better enough in order to avoid the loss of, at least, one billion dollars?!? Assuming there are, is it feasible to spot them?!? There is another issue here: artistic "utter-garbage", a cheapest, politically naive and ultra-populist movie like "Avatar" grossed more than two billions or so, at least its first Episode... What about the next Episodes? However another "pile of (artistic) garbage" like all recent "Star Trek" episodes keeps grossing much less, in fact too little... From my point of view they rushed indeed the scripts but they also failed to keep enough balance. They need to make contact: (i) with the "majority" of the fanbase, (ii) with the members of the fanbase who hate Jar-Jar Binks, 'cause they unconsciously realize that they aren't like any Jedi Knight or Sith Warrior, they are like Jar-Jar ... at best!... That's my explanation for the vast majority of "Jar-Jar Binks haters"; SW:EpI;TPM was a true masterpiece but they focused not at Darth Maul, Senator Palpatine, Padme, little Anakin, young Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi or Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn and the appearance of the Jedi Council, they focused at Jar-Jar!!... Why?!? My answer is simple and clear enough... (iii) with the members of the fanbase who desire to see a truly epic movie, not a fraud... (iv) with the members of the fanbase -and the audiences- which desire to see not only a great movie about existential tragedies but also an allegory about the social and political reality... (v) with the audiences who desire to watch a ... "consistent" and "cohesive", "loopholes" free, "Space Opera"!!... (vI) with the audiences that want to watch a great and funny movie... (vii) with the audiences that desire to watch a real, great Tragedy, projected at the future [cf. (iv)]... (viii) with the audiences consisted of children (because they do pay one ticket now and they will grow up...) and their parents, namely families, not to mention our childish self... (ix) with the (large) audiences, mostly consisted of immature, a little-bit ridiculous and -perhaps- unstable spectators... (x) with the (considerable) homophobic (or otherwise obsessed) audiences and the (considerable) pro-gay (or otherwise obsessed) audiences... (xi) etc... George Lucas had succeed to (conceive, create and) deliver two pairs of, more or less, balanced Trilogies! The 1999-2005 Trilogy was much more balanced from the old one and it was its success that eventually "cemented" the magnitude of the SW status, however he could do even better... In my -not so humble- opinion Star Wars "works" like the video-game SW:KotOR2;TSL and the comic SW:TOR;BotE are real masterpieces but that's just about my tastes... The truth is that KotOR considerably helped the SW status also ... and that you can't always repeat with success KotOR and such, you are in need of various and new concepts and recipes also; SW:TOR is something else, it's an MMORPG, the audiences came here in order to satisfy different needs, some SW fanbase needs too of course... Perhaps the Disney guys consider such a balance ... desired but not feasible. We'll see... Happy New Year! Most if not all the points you hit on are all valid. I'll only point to a couple that I wholeheartedly agree with and that's TPM hatred from the fan base and Disney rushing to make these movies to make a buck. There was a quote from Lucas years ago, maybe even going back as far as the 80's, where he mentions he wanted to start with Part IV because that would put us, the fan base, right in the middle of the action, which it ultimately did do. I'm not sure what people expected when they went to see part one. I got almost exactly what I thought it would be. A somewhat slow-paced movie, the origin of Anakin obviously, and the political backdrop of what was really at the heart of all this. I won't touch on politics as it's an touchy subject on these forums, but we got to witness first hand where it all started and why things snowballed. Some of the acting in the movie was certainly questionable and whether people like Jar-Jar or not, the character was created for children, nothing more, nothing less. Like anything in life, you take it with a grain of salt and don't let it sour the rest of the experience. The movie was well written and overall, a good fundamental foundation for things to come. Regarding Disney and their decisions. I've read a few things that you touched on, in short, Star Wars overkill. Too much, too soon. Case in point, my own personal feelings, I waited until recently to see the latest installment, not because of the mad dash to see the movie and the mile long lines (hyperbole! lol), but because I wasn't sure I wanted to see it at all. I was okay with waiting for it to hit the small screen, but I've seen every one at the theater, so I might as well see this one too. Lucas' pacing of his movie releases allowed the anticipation to heighten, I didn't feel that with the last two installments. TFA? There was major anticipation. I guess ten years will do that. Disney needs to figure something out, or my guess is that the fan base will continue to shrink over time if they continue to pop movies out every year or every other year. This also would allow the writers to come up with something intelligent and not rushed. There has to be people behind the scenes that actually have a passion for the movies like we do. That's why the fans are so pissed off. Star Wars was cheapened. And all for the mighty dollar! Happy New Year! Edited January 1, 2020 by Pirana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jovianus Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 In my -not so humble opinion- and imho also, I explained quite convincingly and clearly why the planet Tatooine (and particularly that given place of it) and the name Skywalker should be utterly important to Rey herself. After all, it's Rey who fell in absolute love with the only known grand-child of Anakin Skywalker, I ain't sure that many fans ... feel for Ben Solo what his very father does feel.. But what exactly at any point suggests that Rey knows or cares who Bens grandfather is, or that it's in any way relevant to their relationship? Ben never identifies as a Skywalker, he doesn't even really care about "Anakin Skywalker", he was only obsessed with his grandfather as Darth Vader It goes without saying that Rey has extremely strong feelings also for Leia ... Organa, the daughter of ... Bail Organa who has been a (light-saber crafting) Force-User (rhetorical: because she was the daughter of ... Bail Organa?!?) and not just because she was the mother of the man who sacrificed himself in order to bring his beloved Rey back to life, not only because she was the sister of Luke Skywalker etc, etc. etc.... Where Leia's talent with the force comes from isn't relevant to her relationship with or training of Rey, she only ever presented herself as an Organa and a Solo. To put it differently (otherwise?!) Rey must be immeasurably more attached to all Skywalkers and the Skywalker legacy than the more dedicated SW fan! Hence Tatooine is the place for her to bury the light-sabers of the twin children of Anakin Skywalker, a.k.a. Darth Vader, the sole and great precursor of the Force pair of Ben Solo/Kylo Ren and Rey herself!!... Isn't all that clear enough?!? But..she doesn't. She viewed Han Solo as a surrogate father, Leia Organa Solo was her actual teacher, and she loved Ben Solo. The only person she ever knew as a Skywalker was Luke, who was just sort of a grumpy old man who didn't really help her much until after he was dead, and even then never in any way that gave them any real bond. Again, you're taking a bunch of information and connections that you as an outside observer of the Star Wars franchise know and care about and projecting it on to the characters, insisting that it must also be important and relevant to them regardless of the lack of evidence or reason that it would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cunctatorg Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 ... Again, you're taking a bunch of information and connections that you as an outside observer of the Star Wars franchise know and care about and projecting it on to the characters, insisting that it must also be important and relevant to them regardless of the lack of evidence or reason that it would be. In that case I could hardly conceive and/or realize that, projections are mechanisms belonging to the realm of the unconscious... Perhaps then we should ask the advice of some brilliant psychoanalyst, either Otto Kernberg or Heinz Kohut (or both!!) in order to solve creatively our disagreement!... Until then ..., Happy New Year!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDymond Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 (edited) This was certainly my least favorite of the Sequel Trilogy. I'd probably rank it a bit below RotS and well below any of the OT and Rogue One, but still above AotC, TCW (theatrical movie, not the series as a whole), and TPM, and probably about even with Solo. Without getting into spoilers, the first half or so just felt like a jumbled mess where they were ticking off plot points without quite bothering to tell an organic story to string them together or justify the characters' behaviors / attitudes most of the time. The second half was better than the first, but still had some problems with both characters and plot that kept it from fully recovering, IMO. It was still fun, often exciting, well-acted, emotionally resonate, and beautiful both in terms of effects and cinematography, and I was ultimately satisfied with how it resolved "the Skywalker Saga," but grading on the curve of Star Wars films, it didn't really measure up for me. Getting into spoilers: It also seemed like it spent to much time trying to "fix" perceived slights from TLJ. In some places, it was fairly minor, such as clunky dialogue like "We need some Holdo maneuvers! // No way, that move was one in a million." But in other regards the narrative tug-of-war between movies was more painful, such minimizing Rose to the point of being a glorified extra (and introducing another potential love interest for Finn . . . who then didn't really add all that much to the plot) or turning Kylo Ren's revelation that Rey's parents were nobodies into a 'Jedi Truth' where "they were nobodies because they chose to be." Number of other random observations: Leia and Kylo / Ben did die, so it wasn't like the movie was completely without stakes, but it definitely pulled too many fake-outs related to killing off (or effectively killing off) characters. OMG, they killed Chewi... oh, nope, there "was another transport" and he was on that one instead. Awww, Threepio's memory got wiped- oh, nope R2 backed it up and he's fine. Oh man, they blew up the planet with the cute little guy and the cool helmeted wom- oh, nope, they both apparently got off in time and past the First Order ships in time to join the big climactic battle. What was the point of having Hux be a traitor and introducing General Pryde? Did they think Hux was too much of a punchline to be threatening after TLJ but still wanted a formidable First Order officer? Did they just write themselves into a corner with how to get the heroes off the Star Destroyer? That whole subplot was just weird and felt poorly executed. I loved the new TIE Dagger and Sith Trooper designs as well as the setting on Byss - excuse me, Exegol. All of the easter egg ships that showed up for the final battle, like the Ghost, were awesome as well. Seeing Lando again was great, but the backstory that he'd been running around with Luke after some Sith artifact and then settled in on Pasaana struck me as an odd choice. Seems like a more natural fit would have been to work him into the Kijimi part of the story instead. I was completely satisfied with Kylo Ren / Ben Solo's redemption arc and sacrifice. I thought it was well-plotted and well-acted, and both the scene with his memory of his father and the way both he and his mother became one with the Force together at the end were wonderful. There were also some great touches such as the way he seemed to embrace some Solo swagger once he turned, even pulling off a behind-the-back shot at a stormtrooper the same way his good ol' dad did in TFA. The movie had a number of plot points that I didn't like in concept, but was (to varying degrees) pleasantly surprised with how they were executed (something Star Wars has previously done with things like "Leia's my sister!" and having Darth Maul survive being cut in half). Kylo Ren repairing his mask seemed, to me, to be emblematic of the behind-the-scenes tug of war going on with respect to the Abrams movies and TLJ. But I did like the kintsugi-inspired approach they took with it.I really wanted Rey to build her own lightsaber for this movie (I was personally hoping for a saber-staff with a silver or yellow blade), and disliked the idea of her instead repairing Anakin / Luke's saber. In the end though, I was okay with it for the way it was paired with Leia's saber for the climax, and because Rey ultimately did make her own yellow-bladed weapon.I went into the movie pretty skeptical about the idea of bringing the Emperor back, seriously hoping that it would just be a messenger droid like the ones from Battlefront II and Shattered Empire or a Sith version of a Force Ghost. But McDiarmid's portrayal kept it from ruining the movie for me and it did make for a suitably epic climax. Of these, this is the element I still like the least, however, because even though I was never a fan of the whole "Chosen One' element that the Prequels introduced, once you accept it as an established part of the story, it seems incongruous to then negate Anakin's bringing balance to the Force destiny by saying "oh yeah, Darth Sidious was still out there plotting all this time and the Sith are still the ultimate big bads."I was particularly worried that the movie would end up trying to "explain" Rey's strength by tying her to Palpatine -- which I still say does absolutely nothing to solve any supposed plot holes, since Palpatine's own strength in the Force is never explained, nor did it ever need to be. But while I liked TLJ's message of "you don't need to come from someone 'special' to be special yourself" I was ultimately okay with TRoS pivoting to "just because your family was rotten, doesn't mean you are rotten." So, overall, I didn't love it -- especially relative to the bar set by the other Sequels -- but it also wasn't my least favorite Star Wars movie, and I thought it had a number of solid elements to it. Edited January 2, 2020 by DarthDymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cunctatorg Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 (edited) ... Too much, too soon. ... Happy New Year! I ain't pretty sure that it was really too much, it's about five movies in five-six years - essentially one Trilogy... Much or too much, imho the quantity wasn't the real, main source of the issues and the considerable shrinking of the number of the spectators. The real source was the many quality-seriousness-balance issues, not to mention "the enormous lack of imagination and fear of creativity" to quote George Lucas, who's evaluation of the situation has been proven mathematically correct... Certainly it was too soon. However enough time is just a necessary condition for the accomplishment of a work, it is not at all a sufficient condition also!! To explain myself pretty clearly, I strongly suspect that if the same people (I am speaking primarily about story-writers and script writers, secondary about directors and -above all- the producers, "the directors of the future") had been working -following the, basically, same approach to the Star Wars Mythology from the Future and the same "creative" philosophy- for each of these movies not just for one and a half year (or two) but even for five whole years, the result would have been almost the same... I believe this despite the fact that I am convinced (see some of my previous posts) that the main idea of this Trilogy is quite interesting and really bold though comparatively "narrow themed", "poor". However this main idea, in the hands of really creative, inventive and ... serious persons, could result in a much more successful Trilogy, something positively remarkable gaining also the respect of the existing fan-base and the admiration of many new fans. The bottom line is that I don't know if, I doubt that Disney (i.e. "the Studios") are "able to recognize" the aforementioned really creative, inventive and -above all- serious persons which would be able to make a correct evaluation of the situation and, consequently, take care of the relevant challenges... Edited January 2, 2020 by cunctatorg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phalczen Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 I just have very mixed feelings on it. Finally got the chance to view it yesterday with the family. My biggest pet peeve of the movie is Exegol. Why? As in, its already been established, in canon, that Yoda went to the Sith homeworld of Moriband during the end of the Clone Wars (in season 6.) Lucas confirmed Moriband was Korriban, just a name change over the thousands of years. The Sith spirits were all there. I can kinda justify Ach-To ... the Jedi homeworld is not really established in canon, only in Legends as Tython, but the Sith homeworld was established. So why create Exegol? Apparently, according to Charlie from Emergency Awesome, it was because no one from the Lucasfilm Story Group was on set guiding the writers and Abrams. So the movie appears to be a hodge-podge because it is. If its supposed to be more of a homage to the fans, rather than a cinematic masterpiece or a subversion of expectations, then why exclude the LSG? Why create a whole new Sith homeworld? Abrams would not have had to change a single thing about the actual planet, just call it Moriband and fluff in some explanation that its landscape changed over the years because of Dark Side Influence or whatever. Avengers Endgame was a fitting end to the story of those characters. And I do think Rise of Skywalker did a good job completing Rey/Ben's arcs as well as the arc of Leia. I'm glad Harrison Ford was convinced to come back, its pretty clear he wasn't the original plan but Fisher's death meant they needed an alternate illusion, so this made sense, especially since her body didn't actually fade until after that moment. I just don't think it did a good job tying up the loose ends of other characters. I'm certainly in the minority in that I really enjoyed The Last Jedi. I didn't mind the course it was taking the audience in or the variations in the nature of the Force ... probably because being a fan of the EU for so long I've grown accustomed to different people's takes on the Force. I agree that the Rose/Finn scenes on Canto Bight were a little odd, but where was her arc in Rise of Skywalker? Is she supposed to be just replaced as Finn's love interest by Naomi Ackie's Jannah character? I was literally waiting for Rose to kiss Finn during the final celebration scene and there wasn't even an acknowledgement. I mean, she thought she would lose him forever on the command ship star destroyer exterior, and now they've won and nothing? In fact, the only kiss was between Commander Larma D'Acy (Amanda Lawrence) and some random pilot the audience met about 30 minutes before. Why diss Rose so much? I'm not suggesting Rose Tico was the greatest character ever written in the history of Star Wars, but the role she plays in Rise of Skywalker seems to negate any character development from Last Jedi. I get that Rose was the catalyst to develop Finn, but she has her own arc as well and this isn't explored. When did Luke go searching for Sith Wayfinders (and why did Abrams not just call them Holocrons)? Was this before he searched for Ach-To? Was it after he defeated the emperor in Return, but before he decided to rebuild the Jedi order and the Temple? (Maybe this search for the Sith Wayfinders immediately after Return can explain why he wasn't around to help Sabine Wren and Ahsoka Tano search for Ezra Bridger after the war or why the Mandalorian can't find anyone to take Baby Yoda.) Was this search after Snoke seduced Ben Solo and Luke almost executed Ben that fateful night? It just doesn't make sense. Its certainly plausible that Luke would go into hiding after his failure with Ben Solo. Its also plausible that he might seek out the source of the Sith to discover why Snoke emerged. But the former is motivated by shame, and the latter is motivated by hope. So, very different character arcs for Luke and not the one that he supposedly chose in The Last Jedi. So it wasn't a retcon of TLJ, but it didn't build on the concepts either. It was more like, well, just pretend that TLJ didn't even exist. Which might be ok for people who hated TLJ, but the reality is that its canon now, just like the stories told in prequels. You may not like them, but at least they built upon each other and didn't directly contradict. And I don't really buy the explanation, oh well JJ had to rework everything because Treverrow was fired and he didn't have enough time. Ron Howard was put into the same situation and he still made the effort to ensure that Solo paid homage to fans, was consistent with the rest of the movies, and even paid off connections to the Clone Wars and Rebels. JJ had enough time to create a new Sith homeworld without consulting the Lucasfilm Story Group. So, it feels more like a movie that should be right after Force Awakens, but still doesn't fit. It wasn't a bad movie, I'm not sure where I would rank it just yet and will probably need to see it a couple more times to decide. The whole nonsense and hate after TLJ and Solo, and Treverrow being fired and JJ taking over, and maybe even a little bit Fisher dying prematurely, it all placed this cloud over Rise that it was almost doomed to fail regardless. The real tragedy is that they could have just talked to Lucas' de-facto offspring in Dave Filoni, who has shown over and over again that he can tell a damn good star wars story. They should have tapped into the resources they had at LSG instead of trying to make a film that would meet the release date and that fans would hate the least. They should have made a film that build on the concepts and character arcs from TLJ instead of pretending it didn't exist. Maybe I would feel differently about Rise if I absolutely hated/despised the Last Jedi, but I'm not so sure. I wanted it to be absolutely amazing, the way Endgame was. I guess my expectations were just too high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
that_Spartan_IV Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 (edited) I knew it was going to be bad, but I didn't know it would be that bad. Edited February 7, 2020 by that_Spartan_IV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cunctatorg Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 I knew it was going to be bad, but I didn't know it would be that bad. Well, it wasn't really that bad! Now it's the proper time to watch it again and pinpoint its many flaws and its strong points... However you should compare it with the (enormously) underestimated SW:Ep.I;TPM!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reeny Posted April 12, 2020 Share Posted April 12, 2020 Just watched it for the first time on streaming. It was ok but nothing really special i felt. Got a good laugh at the end when Rey kissed Kylo to death! At least, that's how I saw it. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cunctatorg Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) Just watched it for the first time on streaming. It was OK but nothing really special I felt. Got a good laugh at the end when Rey kissed Kylo to death! At least, that's how I saw it. LOL Well, that very scene was the most ... unfortunate one of the whole movie and it was one hundred per cent a director's fault (=error) and responsibility. The scene came out to be ... childish and silly, silliest indeed... I guess that J.J.Abrahams should instruct Daisy Ridley to act like feeling -from the very beginning of their last reunion- that Ben Solo had just sacrificed his life in order to bring her back to life, so she should act as being -simultaneously- devastated and ... happy!! After a short -but intense and dramatic- struggle with her agony, despair and contradictory feelings, she could realize that Ben is going to die but live through her and, then, in tears, agony, affection and love to embrace him, look at him, touching him and eventually kiss him shortly, a few seconds before his death and just one second afterwards. Then she should stop and keep thinking of the greatest tragedy befallen upon them and "feeling" accordingly ... while watching him and trying to keep his body in front of her ... or so... As I see it, that scene should be the most important scene of the whole movie; on the contrary the most important became another scene, a great one though:, the one where Rey is eventually crying just after healing Kylo, bringing Ben (?) back in life and tell him the truth about her feelings. There J.J. was able to give the proper instructions to his actors ... and the result was a great scene indeed!! On the contrary the "kissing to death" scene made a great portion of the audience to ... laugh ... and that was essentially an artistic catastrophe; I guess that J. J. Abrahams (or ... Kathleen Kennedy?!?) didn't believe at all regarding this point, therefore he (?!?) decided just to dedicate that scene only to the children... Edited April 13, 2020 by cunctatorg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cunctatorg Posted September 26, 2020 Share Posted September 26, 2020 (edited) It's hard to believe it! Yet, it is true!! After the striking disappointment of the awful, Disney's Star Wars Trilogy, I was essentially convinced that Disney is extremely unreliable (to say the least...) regarding any hope of delivering any satisfying Star Wars movie, not to mention some really great work of art... Thus it was a greatest surprise to me when I watched (in a movie theatre in Greece, three times already during a time interval of 10 days; now all these "all seasons" movie theatres are ... temporarily closed due to pandemics) an artistic masterpiece which is essentially a great "almost" Star Wars movie also: the great Mulan movie. Mulan is a real, multidimensional artistic achievement!! Edited September 26, 2020 by cunctatorg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDutchman Posted September 29, 2020 Share Posted September 29, 2020 (edited) It's hard to believe it! Yet, it is true!! After the striking disappointment of the awful, Disney's Star Wars Trilogy, I was essentially convinced that Disney is extremely unreliable (to say the least...) regarding any hope of delivering any satisfying Star Wars movie, not to mention some really great work of art... Thus it was a greatest surprise to me when I watched (in a movie theatre in Greece, three times already during a time interval of 10 days; now all these "all seasons" movie theatres are ... temporarily closed due to pandemics) an artistic masterpiece which is essentially a great "almost" Star Wars movie also: the great Mulan movie. Mulan is a real, multidimensional artistic achievement!! Are you a paid troll or something? or just have a serious Mulan fetish? Your previous thread already got moved to Off Topic where it belongs, if you want to gush about Mulan, do it there Edited September 29, 2020 by MadDutchman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cunctatorg Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 (edited) Are you a paid troll or something? Or just have a serious Mulan fetish? Your previous thread already got moved to Off Topic where it belongs, if you want to gush about Mulan, do it there. I haven't seen the 1998 (I guess) Disney's animated MU LAN, I was interested neither about a certain ... MU LAN and I ain't into animated movies. I criticized quite a lot Disney's Star Wars Trilogy, therefore it's a ... naïve thought (to put it diplomatically) the idea that I am a Disney's paid troll or whatever. I watched that very MU LAN in a Greek theater last month due to simple curiosity; I wanted to compare that movie with the ... errrh..., movies of the Disney's SW Trilogy and I was interested to find out how a US Corporation that had delivered such a SW ... catastrophe, would deal with an epic movie about Imperial China; I went to watch a childish and naïve movie, another awful movie and I surprisingly watched an awesome one!! I realized that MU LAN is a great movie from every aspect and I decided to write about all that; that's all. I insist too about the -quite obvious- fact that the 2020 MU LAN film is -essentially- a Star Wars movie, in fact a greatest one; no lightsabers of course, however there is something quite similar to the essence etc. of the SW Force concept and ... much more! Since you are so ... talkative, opinionated and inexplicably irritated, could you please inform us (e.g. at the "Off Topic" sub-section of the "General Discussion" Section or wherever you like) what irritates you so much about that very film?!? Have you watched it or not after all? Edited September 30, 2020 by cunctatorg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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