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Vig/Veng leap should be usable in melee range and double as root breaker

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Guardian / Juggernaut
Vig/Veng leap should be usable in melee range and double as root breaker

Alec_Fortescue's Avatar


Alec_Fortescue
04.23.2018 , 01:05 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
To me juggies are supposed to be the least mobile melee class.

Consider the others:
Shadow: sneaky assassin dualsaber type.
Operative: sneaky stab you in the back type.
PT: mobility is like the only thing they do have, flamethrower basically XD
And then mara: they are literally supposed to be the speedy glass cannon type.

This is why i think dps guardians need more of a anti focus tool. We are low mobility by design to differentiate us from our (currently superior) cousins the maras. (Seriously why run rage when you could be running fury and have superior mobility. DcDs, and damage? I admit with vigi jts a more complicated comparison).

Basically guardians are not supposed to be speedy or incredibly mobile. We are also supposed to not be cannon fodder.
You know, I agree with that jug should be less mobile but it should be made up with their ability to stay alive longer than others in that case. Right now they're a cannon fodder and less viable than pt dps.

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
04.23.2018 , 01:34 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Alec_Fortescue View Post
You know, I agree with that jug should be less mobile but it should be made up with their ability to stay alive longer than others in that case. Right now they're a cannon fodder and less viable than pt dps.
You've read enough of my posts on the pvp subforum to inderstand my stance on this. As explained even here i think we need an antifocus of some form BUT with focused defense scaling properly we are already at a strong chance of becoming op and asking for a nerf hammer 3-6 months from now.

I for one would rsther be underwhelming than fotm. And yes, every time i go vigi i get focused, so i can symphatize.

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
04.23.2018 , 03:39 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
You've read enough of my posts on the pvp subforum to inderstand my stance on this. As explained even here i think we need an antifocus of some form BUT with focused defense scaling properly we are already at a strong chance of becoming op and asking for a nerf hammer 3-6 months from now.

I for one would rsther be underwhelming than fotm. And yes, every time i go vigi i get focused, so i can symphatize.
A buff to focused defense does nothing, it already overheals the majority of the time, and scales horribly under focus fire as do all healing reliant cooldowns. The only situation it will improve is when a tank 1v1's someone in a duel, because now instead of healing for most of his health he'll heal for all of it, DPS already will, and under focus fire it'll still be useless beyond letting you live an extra GCD.

If you want to improve the Guardians ability to live focus fire, which is where their real weakness lies, you need to do things like give them baseline stun DR, and more DR related cooldowns in general, or improve the duration/uptime of saber reflect, or make saber reflect work on melee damage, or (dramatically) lower the cooldown of saber ward, or some combination of all of the above.

If you compare the Guardian just to the Sentinel, in terms of damage reduction, a Sentinel spends most of his time at 45-50% DR thanks to cloak of pain having huge uptime, gets 4 seconds of god mode every 3 minutes, gets 6 seconds of near god mode every 45 seconds (that will not change next patch besides losing stun immunity), has camo to disengage whenever needed, and oh yeah predation still makes you hard to track and gives 10% defense chance.

This means even if you gave guardians enough DR cooldowns to match a sentinel, they'd still lag behind because they don't have camo to disengage. Really though this wouldn't matter if the game weren't focused on death match type, which it never should have been, but the player base shrunk way too fast and 4v4 arenas are the only competitive game type still supported so it is what it is.
Kandel - Juggernaut Lef - Guardian
Nyeetra - Assassin Milarra - Sage
Lendros - Mercenary Jakor - Vanguard
Iseline - Operative Lysandere - Gunslinger

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
04.23.2018 , 04:03 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
snip.
Youre another one who should remember my discussion on this matter from the pvp forum.

I personally dont remember the last time my focused defense OVER healed, but i apparently spend more time being focused than most somehow.

And i also said we needed an anti focus of some form, so i dont see what we are arguing with the rest.

And ive also said focus in particular was inferior in literally every measurable way to concentration, and vigi arguably still worse than sents.

Consider mercs and their self heal for an example of how self heals can quickly reach OPness. They basically have reflect + self heal rolled onto the same ability but on a longer CD.

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
04.23.2018 , 06:28 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
Youre another one who should remember my discussion on this matter from the pvp forum.
I don't follow everyone's posts on a dead game. This is what you just said:

Quote:
BUT with focused defense scaling properly we are already at a strong chance of becoming op
That is wrong. Let me try to illustrate why.

Let's say all the charges on a tank heal for 80k now. Let's say they boost it to the point where the charges heal 120k, so you're getting another 40k out of it. Well first of all, you'd have to literally get to almost zero health to see the full benefit from it, or have Enure popped. Secondly, if you have a healer healing you at the same time, you will overheal and waste some of it. And thirdly, let's say you get that extra 40k health. Assuming 2 or more people are attacking you, that 40k is gone in 1-2 GCD's max, so it literally doesn't change your survivability at all.

Why is DR so powerful? Let's say 3 targets are attacking you at once (focus in an arena for example, or you're carrying the huttball). All 3 use an attack that does 20k damage to you. If your DR is raised by something modest like 20%, it turns that 60k damage into 48k... so you just gained 12k health. Doesn't seem like much, right? Except, with most DR cooldowns, its active for a set duration, so let's say 6 seconds as that's the shortest you'll find typically, that's 4 GCD's, 12k x 4 = 48k damage mitigated, and that's not even factoring in extreme situations like huttball or when you have dots ticking on you as well, or taking additional guard damage. DR scales exponentially better than health in damage taking situations. This is the whole reason they had to entirely rework assassin tanks to no longer be based around self healing, the devs realized as ops bosses hit harder, the self healing was much less useful. Its also why we gear for mitigation over endurance in PvE, and we would in PvP as well if the mitigation worked on most damage types, but since the damage profile in PvP is different its pointless (something like 80%+ of damage from ops bosses is usually mitigatable, whereas from players its as low as 20% in some situations).

Where self healing is strong and even overpowered is in 1v1 duels where there are no outside sources of heals coming in. Here, you can fully benefit off of that extra 40k health, especially since only 1 target is attacking you. In a regular warzone or arena, its gone almost immediately, and damage reduction is king.

If they changed Focused Defense to have a rate limit of 1 charge per second (so a duration of 12 seconds minimum), it'd be a lot more useful. Additionally, add some DR while its active for the DPS specs (tanks don't need it), like 15%. This way its got less uptime typically than cloak of pain with longer cooldown, but you get the benefit of self heals as well. That's how I'd rework the skill, personally.
Kandel - Juggernaut Lef - Guardian
Nyeetra - Assassin Milarra - Sage
Lendros - Mercenary Jakor - Vanguard
Iseline - Operative Lysandere - Gunslinger

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
04.23.2018 , 06:38 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
I don't follow everyone's posts on a dead game.
Seriously dude you've literally replied to other posts ive made on this very topic. I think you're arguing for the sake of arguing, but anyway, i have said practically everywhere that sents are better BECAUSE THEY GET DR.

So i don't need the lecture.
I also dont think we're as sad as PTs, seeing as i play both, just PT not that good at.

Yes DR us superior, but i want to qualify the upcoming changes because while I personally do not see it making us OP the POTENTIAL is there.

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
04.23.2018 , 06:40 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
snip
Well I'm mostly just debating the point that the focused defense changes matter. They don't.
Kandel - Juggernaut Lef - Guardian
Nyeetra - Assassin Milarra - Sage
Lendros - Mercenary Jakor - Vanguard
Iseline - Operative Lysandere - Gunslinger

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
04.23.2018 , 06:50 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
Well I'm mostly just debating the point that the focused defense changes matter. They don't.
It doesn't unless they pull a merc 5.0 bit and blow it out of the water.
I dont see them doing that (they dont like us that much) but since theres a chance in a blue moon i feel obliged to state the possibility until we see it.

Kazz_Devlin's Avatar


Kazz_Devlin
04.28.2018 , 07:55 PM | #29
[QUOTE=wadecounty;9534098]And its all on fairly long cd's (except immunity after leap which can be neutralized by not letting you leap). Also the Endure Pain utility got moved to Enraged Defense, which is terrible since its on a much longer cd and if you're being focused it only lasts a second or two.

I've mained a Jugg in this game since launch, there have been times they were at the top of the mobility meta (mostly 1.0 up to about 3.0 when everyone started getting new tools), but right now they are in the bottom third and combined with less cooldown uptime than the other melee classes except Sin (who have vanish, which is more powerful when used properly), they are sitting ducks for the most part. Easiest way to completely take a Vig/Veng player out in every game, just don't let him leap.

Alternatively, we could remove ball lightning speed utility from sins, nerf the hell out of predation for maras (put it on a 2 minute cooldown or something), nerf Hydraulics (increase cooldown to like a minute 30 or something), and do the same to the ranged classes... but nobody wants to get nerfed. So if you don't want to swing a hammer at every other class in the game, Juggs need a boost to keep up in the mobility meta. QUOTE}

do they? or is being able to stay outside a jugs attack rng a viable means of avoiding all the dmg they do??? remember your a dps burst class you do huge burst then you die.In fact most jugs are so spoiled with skanking it seems you all forget your not suppose to be a effin mercs hence the reason the nerf to skanking! besides which you have an ability called mad dash you don't need anything else.

Equeliber's Avatar


Equeliber
04.29.2018 , 04:26 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Kazz_Devlin View Post
it seems you all forget your not suppose to be a effin mercs
Even mercs aren't supposed to be mercs, so to speak. OR are you saying their defenses are fair compared to what half of other classes have?
Ael Veela, Sith Marauder Klorea, Sith Sorcerer Cinthie, Sith Assassin Lora Leigh, Sniper Darth Malgus