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Vig/Veng leap should be usable in melee range and double as root breaker

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Guardian / Juggernaut
Vig/Veng leap should be usable in melee range and double as root breaker

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
02.07.2018 , 02:58 AM | #1
I think this change would put Vig/Veng close to back on par with other melee classes in PvP, with the plethora of roots/snares and movement options available to all classes now. Also would be a bit of a survivability boost, without drastically making them harder to kill.

Focus probably needs something as well to compare to the Mara/Sent version but not sure what. Tanks are basically fine as is, although Enure no longer being tied to the utility that gives 50% speed and immunity to snares does hurt a bit.
Kandel - Juggernaut Lef - Guardian
Nyeetra - Assassin Milarra - Sage
Lendros - Mercenary Jakor - Vanguard
Iseline - Operative Lysandere - Gunslinger

CMoray's Avatar


CMoray
02.07.2018 , 03:17 AM | #2
But you have Combat Focus, Endure Pain, Immunity after leap and Blade Blitz?
Aurinko

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
02.07.2018 , 11:21 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by CMoray View Post
But you have Combat Focus, Endure Pain, Immunity after leap and Blade Blitz?
And its all on fairly long cd's (except immunity after leap which can be neutralized by not letting you leap). Also the Endure Pain utility got moved to Enraged Defense, which is terrible since its on a much longer cd and if you're being focused it only lasts a second or two.

I've mained a Jugg in this game since launch, there have been times they were at the top of the mobility meta (mostly 1.0 up to about 3.0 when everyone started getting new tools), but right now they are in the bottom third and combined with less cooldown uptime than the other melee classes except Sin (who have vanish, which is more powerful when used properly), they are sitting ducks for the most part. Easiest way to completely take a Vig/Veng player out in every game, just don't let him leap.

Alternatively, we could remove ball lightning speed utility from sins, nerf the hell out of predation for maras (put it on a 2 minute cooldown or something), nerf Hydraulics (increase cooldown to like a minute 30 or something), and do the same to the ranged classes... but nobody wants to get nerfed. So if you don't want to swing a hammer at every other class in the game, Juggs need a boost to keep up in the mobility meta.
Kandel - Juggernaut Lef - Guardian
Nyeetra - Assassin Milarra - Sage
Lendros - Mercenary Jakor - Vanguard
Iseline - Operative Lysandere - Gunslinger

Bonzenaattori's Avatar


Bonzenaattori
02.07.2018 , 11:29 AM | #4
So you're basically saying, you're in a position where you use 4 root breakers, and you still cant handle roots, despite the fact 3 of those are immunities after breaking the root.
Then, you have 2 purges, but it's still not enough

And somehow Force Charge is supposed to solve this?
Mhm

While we're asking for stupid things, can i have the GM Lazer skill so i cant beat everyone in a 1v1 with 1 button and brag to all my friends about how alpha i am?

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
02.07.2018 , 11:41 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Bonzenaattori View Post
So you're basically saying, you're in a position where you use 4 root breakers, and you still cant handle roots, despite the fact 3 of those are immunities after breaking the root.
Then, you have 2 purges, but it's still not enough

And somehow Force Charge is supposed to solve this?
Mhm

While we're asking for stupid things, can i have the GM Lazer skill so i cant beat everyone in a 1v1 with 1 button and brag to all my friends about how alpha i am?
Let's be realistic for a second here, maybe you've never played the class before. 4 root breakers... so you have the one tied to Enrage, a DPS ability, on a 1 minute cooldown. Which means you have to sacrifice its use for damage if you want it as a root break, and its only available once a minute. Mad Dash root break, again tied to a utility so you have to sacrifice something, on a 35 second cooldown. This is the best one the class has, and its still on a fairly long cooldown, and does not give you additional speed meaning you can be rooted/snared again 2 seconds after its use. Enraged Defense, which actually does not break roots so too bad so sad if you're already rooted, and on a 2 minute cooldown (1 minute 30 second possible if spec'd). Also only lasts for duration of the cooldown, so if you have any dots on you, its gone in a second or two. And finally Unremitting, which also isn't a root break, only immunity upon leap, meaning all the opponent has to do is kite within melee range and keep you rooted and snared to prevent you from utilizing it.

Oh yippee, what a mobile class.

Meanwhile, SIns have 50% speed boost with 50% uptime from Ball Lightning, and Force Speed every 15 seconds which actually does break roots (and they can still spec Phantom Stride to break them as well). Maras have Predation which is the ultimate movement utility so discussion over there. And PT's have Hydraulics up for 10 out of every 45 seconds with +75% movement speed (that's about 20% uptime). And that's just the other melee classes. Oh and operative troll roll > all but we already know that.

Its a fact, Juggs are the easiest melee class to lock down in the game right now, especially DPS Juggs because they lack the +30% speed when guarded target is attacked ability that tanks get.
Kandel - Juggernaut Lef - Guardian
Nyeetra - Assassin Milarra - Sage
Lendros - Mercenary Jakor - Vanguard
Iseline - Operative Lysandere - Gunslinger

CMoray's Avatar


CMoray
02.07.2018 , 12:36 PM | #6
As melee DPS we have Shadow, Scoundrel, Sentinel and Vanguard.
Where Vanguard has no other purges, but 10m range, harpoon and super slow on Flak Shell.
Scoundrels don't purge with their roll but are superior immune to all effects while rolling around... And possible purge on Surrender.
Sentinels have Trancendence, which only works as a purge, every 30s. Possible purge and immunity on Force Camo and purge on Blade Blitz.
For Shadows: everything you said

Why should modifing Leap as a root breaker with 0m range improve the situation? That means you have a root breaker every 10-15s (Battlefield Command utility) which even grants immunity to all cc effects. Additionally to possible purge on Combat Focus, Enure and Blade Blitz.

The problem I see is the high amount of ccs in the game. To improve the situation the approach should be to reduce ccs instead of giving out more breakers.
Aurinko

thepilk's Avatar


thepilk
02.07.2018 , 12:39 PM | #7
Also, you have Force Push which can be used in melee to put a target back into the range of Leap for re-use to re-trigger all its effects.
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wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
02.07.2018 , 01:02 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by CMoray View Post

The problem I see is the high amount of ccs in the game. To improve the situation the approach should be to reduce ccs instead of giving out more breakers.
I agree with this. That being said, what do you think is more likely to be ok with the majority of people? That most classes get nerfs with their CC and movement to even them with Guardians? Or that they give Guardians a buff to catch up to the crowd?

I don't really care what direction they take it, nerfs don't scare or bother me. I just know what the reaction will be from the majority.
Kandel - Juggernaut Lef - Guardian
Nyeetra - Assassin Milarra - Sage
Lendros - Mercenary Jakor - Vanguard
Iseline - Operative Lysandere - Gunslinger

CMoray's Avatar


CMoray
02.07.2018 , 03:12 PM | #9
Nerf implies community rage...
But since nerfs in stuns won't affect dummy dps, it may result in a more calm reaction.

And I still think, that the Guardian's mobility is fine.
Aurinko

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
02.07.2018 , 04:02 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by CMoray View Post
Nerf implies community rage...
But since nerfs in stuns won't affect dummy dps, it may result in a more calm reaction.

And I still think, that the Guardian's mobility is fine.
I thought Guardians were actually overpowered in terms of mobility from around 2.0 to 3.0, before they handed tools to everyone else to catch up. But I think the 5.0 meta has screwed the balance again, and they are definitely lagging behind. Roots and snares are just way too common now, to the point that Unremitting just doesn't matter anymore as a preventative measure, and the few tools Guardians get to counter it are tied to other abilities, cost utility points, and are on medium to long cooldowns.

If you think the genie can be put back in the bottle, that's fine, I don't think it's gonna happen though, and to me this is the most sensible solution. I was actually one of the people that said root break or 0 meter range on leap for Guardians would have been overpowered in previous patches, but in the 5.x meta, its needed.

The other idea I had to improve Guardian mobility and survivability is to make Guardian Leap a root break baseline ability, with Focus getting the DR from it transferred to themselves as well. This used to be a thing for Vig way back in the 1.x era (receiving the Guardian Leap DR for themselves as well), it'd help Focus out with survivability. And if it acts as a root break, Vig doesn't need the DR because it can just act as a way to get out in order to leap again and get your DR that way.
Kandel - Juggernaut Lef - Guardian
Nyeetra - Assassin Milarra - Sage
Lendros - Mercenary Jakor - Vanguard
Iseline - Operative Lysandere - Gunslinger