Right now im still in the process of bringing my juggernaut up to max(currently 45). Im taking it slow and enjoying the story, and the abillity to do 200k or more damage in any warzone before i hit the 50 brackets.

After scouring through the rage and vengance trees, and looking over many gameplay videos and testing vairious specs, ive noticed a few things.

Some of the big pros of playing a rage jug, is the abillity to pull of insanely huge crits with smash, giving you ludicrous burst aoe dmg. However, i always feel very ineffective in warzones due to the fact that this is my only high damage abillity.. Sure, its nice to crit for 4+k damage, but all the other abillities at your disposal hit for around 600 or a bit more.

With vengance however, ive been able to crit for 2.8k on 3 abillities, just in the space of 2 globals. Not to mention the fact that all three of thise attacks have a minor dot, and you can throw another 1k or more dmg into the mix. Using this rotation ( impale, scream, shatter) ive been able to dispatch enemies in 10 seconds or less.

So im curious as to why players generally lean towards rage at end game. Am i missing something huge? Since smash is on a 12 second cooldown when talented, even if you can hit 2 people at a time with smash for 3k, for that 12 seconds, your damage output is akin to a level 10. Whereas with my vengance build, i can burst down single targets in seconds, and by staggering, my cooldowns are longer, but i have the abillity to do damage in between them.

What are your opinions on the differences between rage and vengence. And at the current max, in the current build, with similar gear, which is more effective?

I think the smash crit is really the only reason people go rage.

Rage is burst, Vengeance is steady damage.

Burst is better in PvP.

Rage is burst, Vengeance is steady damage.

 

Burst is better in PvP.

Living is better in pvp, Rage doesn't have anywhere near as much survivability and if you think a 5-6k crit every now and then is *burst* then you've clearly not given vengeance a try.

I have had far more success in PvP as Vengeance. Very rarely do I get less than 7 medals, and usually I get around 9. It feels like the PvP tank to me. I find I die far, far less easily, despite what everyone says about PvP mitigation. I get more protection medals because I can use Soresu and Guard. This also helps me protect important ops members better, such as a ball carrier. My damage is consistently good, as opposed to the high burst of smash and then hitting like a herring until force choke or crush are up again. Also, I've found that smash can miss due to lag or enemy movement speed buffs, and then you're left with nothing.

It might just be that Vengeance suits my play style better, but even in that case I would still argue that Vengeance is Rage's equal if only because it is far more reliable and steady. You aren't dead as often and you're never the underdog because of cooldowns.

Living is better in pvp, Rage doesn't have anywhere near as much survivability and if you think a 5-6k crit every now and then is *burst* then you've clearly not given vengeance a try.

I can put out roughly 20k damage in 6 seconds as Rage, but then I drop for another 9 or so seconds. That's burst.

As Vengeance, my damage is far more steady. I don't know why you think Vengeance has burst. It has moderately large hits that leave dot damage. There is no burst there. It has good, steady damage. Not burst.

I have had far more success in PvP as Vengeance. Very rarely do I get less than 7 medals, and usually I get around 9. It feels like the PvP tank to me. I find I die far, far less easily, despite what everyone says about PvP mitigation. I get more protection medals because I can use Soresu and Guard. This also helps me protect important ops members better, such as a ball carrier. My damage is consistently good, as opposed to the high burst of smash and then hitting like a herring until force choke or crush are up again. Also, I've found that smash can miss due to lag or enemy movement speed buffs, and then you're left with nothing.

 

It might just be that Vengeance suits my play style better, but even in that case I would still argue that Vengeance is Rage's equal if only because it is far more reliable and steady. You aren't dead as often and you're never the underdog because of cooldowns.

I was in the same situation as you for a while, but then I got more used to the rage playstyle. It takes some time.

Currently, I respec Rage for PvP and run my raids as Vengeance; personally I think that was what was intended.

ive gotten destroyer and annihilator with both rage and venge

both are viable

venge is much more fun in pvp to me

Only really nice thing about Vengeance in PvP is you will never, ever run out of rage and you get some immunities to all the freakin' CC.

Otherwise Rage gives you a second jump, massive crit bonuses, 20% up front armor pen, an extra snare and massive burst.

As for survivability, dead enemies can't hit you back (well...they can dot you before they die but you know what I mean).

I like them both. I got tired of being stunned/knocked back RIGHT when i was about to smash and wasting 80% of my damage, so I've been playing vengeance

I topped the charts every game with both specs, so they're both more than viable.

Also, vengeance seems more active and fun.

In rage my entire playstyle was completely centered around setting up smash. In vengeance you can take vicious slash and assault off your bar, and rotate between sunder/shatter/impale as well as your free smash.

It makes for fun, faster paced gameplay, but the burst rage brings is probably too good to pass up. I'm still on the fence.

Here's the crux of the matter with rage, it's ENTIRELY reliant upon damage from smash. It does NOT have ANYTHING other than smash to deal the big numbers (arguably scream). Not only that, but it's rage generation and availability relative to vengeance is significantly lower.

To some extent, in a game where there is SOME animation delay (it's not all gone believe it or not) Vengeance comes out on top simple because it has more attacks to work with that are not hindered unduly. Not only that, but GOOD players will know how to stop a rage-specced jugg from doing their burst, whether by dispelling their snare (which does happen when you're not fighting some moron trying their hardest to smash you in all the time) or by CCing them during a choke channel or hell, even running from the jugg and watching their buff, they "can" avoid the smash damage. Vengeance isn't like that, you can get into the thick of it with CC immunity and proceed to get damage in before going away, not only that but you DO have DoTs (which aren't anything on what marauders get, sure, but they're still damage and with enough power they can get to ~600 a tick).

Let me say it once again, Rage is *not* a horrible spec, but it's got a lot of issues, chiefly the aforementioned single-reliance which weakens the overall viability of the spec.

As for the poster claiming to have attained "20k damage in 6 seconds", you're using buzzwords like burst to try to prove something. I can guarantee that a player playing vengeance can pull similar numbers which aren't distributed as AoE. One DEAD player is better than having four slightly weakened players =P

If anything, people haven't been gearing correctly for vengeance. I've noticed a lot of "battlemasters" saccing all sorts of stats to get numbers like 85% surge and 30% crit... at the expense of dropping to 300ish bonus damage in full battlemasters. I currently have 78% surge, 27% crit and ~430 bonus damage and regularly kill rage-specced juggs (not to mention other classes) as vengeance far more quickly and effectively.

So, on a whim, I tried out Vengeance (after being Rage spec). First couple of matches went predictably horribly due to new abilities and rotations. After that, here are the quick list of problems:

1) Everything is delayed. Armor pen requires Sundering. Can't really open with your best attacks b/c not enough rage as opposed to Rage spec where you can saber throw, force charge, force crush to get the smash multiplier going, Force scream, sunder then smash with auto crit and damage multiplier. REsult is dead or mostly dead target.

2) No automatic armor penetration for melee skills. Huge difference against armored targets.

3) More attacks are defendable under the current mechanics.

4) Gotta always be in melee range.

So I'm basically calling BS on those of you who say Vengeance can put up the same numbers as far as damage and kills. It's not even close. Going back to Rage until I get enough defensive armor to try a tank build again.

(edited for fact I made up....still a crap build)

One other crux to rage's high damage output is that to get '20k dmg in 6 seconds' requires enemies to clump up, which (at least on my server) is something people are learning not to do.

Don't get me wrong, rage is good, but I'm finding the added survival from veng helps win games more.

So I'm basically calling BS on those of you who say Vengeance can put up the same numbers as far as damage and kills. It's not even close. Going back to Rage until I get enough defensive armor to try a tank build again.

I can definitely believe you having trouble with it, as it's a lot more complicated than Rage spec. Skilled players can do wonders with the spec, though.

I can definitely believe you having trouble with it, as it's a lot more complicated than Rage spec. Skilled players can do wonders with the spec, though.

Lol...okay. I'll settle for being unskilled, leading the WZ in damage, deathblows and still getting medals for protection. Oh....and winning.

Forgot to mention I ran it for most of my levelling so I'm rather familiar with it. Got into PvP against geared 50s, realized it was lacking, tried Rage and proceeded to lay waste to stuff.

Both of the specs are viable, saying otherwise just means you suck at one of them. It's really about which one you prefer.

I won't argue with which one you prefer point. And you will be better at the one you enjoy. But looking at it from an objective PoV, for the purposes of PvP....Vengeance blows.

Weak dots.

No burst.

Limited armor penetration.

Completely melee ranged.

Less mobility.

Less Snares.

It DOES have better detaunt and some CC immunity and slightly better survivability. And that...is....it.

But you are not going to kill stuff with it as well as you would with Rage spec. Period. Burst kills in competitive PvP. Why do you think Operatives/Scoundrels are getting all the nerf calls? Incredible burst.

If you want to go DPS, go Rage. If you want to tank, go immortal (actually go Powertech but that is a different discussion). If you want to be a semi-effectual tweener....go Vengeance.

Playing a crappy build doesn't make you skilled. It just makes you work harder.

I won't argue with which one you prefer point. And you will be better at the one you enjoy. But looking at it from an objective PoV, for the purposes of PvP....Vengeance blows.

 

Weak dots.

No burst.

Limited armor penetration.

Completely melee ranged.

Less mobility.

Less Snares.

 

 

 

Playing a crappy build doesn't make you skilled. It just makes you work harder.

About the dots, its around 400-450damage almost per tick with all 3 dots going. aint bad at all since the dots are supplementary damage. we are not dot class.

No real burst yes, but the hits are quite hard and what does rage has as burst really? you build up damage boosts to force slam. thats it.

While in Veng, each hit is almost as good as the other. Thats more bursty if you ask me and sustained at teh same time. We dont really start slow, we go strong from the start.

With saber throw, the other skill that gives free rage and charge you can do shatter/impale/scream right of the bat.

No armor penetration but it does hit ok even against heavy armor users.

You are bring that we are completelly melee ranged class. Ofcourse we are. Do you wanna shoot bolts of lazer beam from your saber?

What we have it our unarguably fast charge cooldown, along with push and immunity for 4''. Plus while we get movement restricted even by slows or roots or knowdowns, we either get damage boosted or bonus rage to compensate.

Survivability is great imo and works at pugs. it works wonders in premades.

thats my humble opinion from using vengeance.

edit: if you favour Rage, by all means use it. but bashing Vengeance for being inferior is wrong.

My opinnion is atm rage is a little better. As a Jugernaut i played vengeace till lvl 48, mostly cause i wanted to play as dps and also i didn't liked the idea to play on a shared spec. At 48 i heard a lot of ppl saying rage is better for pvp and bla bla. So i respec and playe some bgs. And even if it was very hard for me to get used with rage , i must say it's better. I mean u can actually kill some1 before dieing and hope they will die from the dots. Also in leveling pve rage is better too after u get crush. In my opinion vengeance is great cause of survability, but dots need some buff, and there are a few more problems. Crush dots ticks for allmost all thevengeace dots.

Well that's what i've experienced, i m not so well geared atm, so i can't say how it will be later. Every1 should try both and see what they like.

Vengeance is garbage for PvP. No burst, no armor pen, no good snare, reliant on physical attacks (lol) require as much setup if not more as rage. You need to be up in someones face for most attacks whereas with rage you got a lot of 10 yard options.

Rage just blows it away.

Rank 63 Rage Jugg.

Vengeance is garbage for PvP. No burst, no armor pen, no good snare, reliant on physical attacks (lol) require as much setup if not more as rage. You need to be up in someones face for most attacks whereas with rage you got a lot of 10 yard options.

 

Rage just blows it away.

 

Rank 63 Rage Jugg.

Playing Devil's Advocate here:

A Rage Jugg has to be in melee rage every bit as much as a Vengeance Jugg to deal the majority of their damage. What can a Rage Jugg do at range that a Vengeance Jugg can't? Force Crush and Obliterate. That's it. A Vengeance can very easily pick up a spammable AoE snare by dropping 7 points in the Immortal tree so it's not like they have no option at getting a snare. Additionally, good players now know what a one trick pony the Rage tree is and can certainly exploit the current weakness by stunning/knockback/etc Smash before the animation finishes thus negating the majority of your damage.

P.S. - PvP Rank in this game isn't a indication of skill. It's the equivalent of bragging about your Prestige level in a Call of Duty game.

There's only one reason I like Vengeance better than Rage in PvP... And it is the Unstoppable talent.

I can deal with less survivability, but I can't deal with getting knocked back every time I charge at someone. Especially considering the 4 piece PvP set bonus is a 5 second window where you can do 10% more damage after a force charge.

Also, the 300k medal is easier as Rage than Vengeance. I have a realistic shot at getting the 300k damage bonus medal almost every game as Rage. I have to play amazing and be in the fray at all times to even break 200k as Vengeance.