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Why the Vanguard is considered balanced by EA/BW.


tehrealdealz

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Been reading alot of posts lately about how "overpowered" the Vanguard class is and how the damage is so "unbalanced" compared to other classes. First and foremost, ive been playing my Vanguard for roughly 4-5 months now and I can tell you without a doubt we are NOT "overpowered" by any means. Let me explain why. The Vanguard class has absolutely ZERO survivability compared to other classes (talking about the assault tree here btw since I think thats what people are complaining about). We dont have a sprint. We dont have a force cloak. We can't heal ourselves.

 

Basically with the Vanguard class there is no Fight or Flight option for us. When I engage the enemy on my Vanguard I know either im going to get killed or i'm going to kill them. That's all. EA/BW i'm sure sees this as well that is why they will NOT nerf the Vanguard. As far as our damage goes, if you compare it to say a Marauder, Shadow Tank, hell even a good operative, you'll find that the Vanguard is way way behind those classes in both damage AND survivability.

 

So to all those players hoping for some kind of nerf to the Vanguard you're going to have to wait until the Marauder gets nerfed first before any changes happen to the Vanguard. Sorry but when I read some of these posts it sounds like a L2P issues to me. Anyway just my two cents.

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scenario 1: player_a meets pyro_a with all his cooldowns. pyro_a pops cooldowns, stuns, freezes, etc, and blows up player_a. Player_a thinks pyro-CLASS is overpowered.

 

scenario 2 : player_a meets pyro_a with none of his cooldowns. pyro gets beat. Player_a thinks he out skilled pyro_a.

 

this is pretty much consistent throughout MMO pvp. replace pyro with whatever is perceived to be the FOTM, and the formula will work once again.

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Been reading alot of posts lately about how "overpowered" the Vanguard class is and how the damage is so "unbalanced" compared to other classes. First and foremost, ive been playing my Vanguard for roughly 4-5 months now and I can tell you without a doubt we are NOT "overpowered" by any means. Let me explain why. The Vanguard class has absolutely ZERO survivability compared to other classes (talking about the assault tree here btw since I think thats what people are complaining about). We dont have a sprint. We dont have a force cloak. We can't heal ourselves.

 

Basically with the Vanguard class there is no Fight or Flight option for us. When I engage the enemy on my Vanguard I know either im going to get killed or i'm going to kill them. That's all. EA/BW i'm sure sees this as well that is why they will NOT nerf the Vanguard. As far as our damage goes, if you compare it to say a Marauder, Shadow Tank, hell even a good operative, you'll find that the Vanguard is way way behind those classes in both damage AND survivability.

 

So to all those players hoping for some kind of nerf to the Vanguard you're going to have to wait until the Marauder gets nerfed first before any changes happen to the Vanguard. Sorry but when I read some of these posts it sounds like a L2P issues to me. Anyway just my two cents.

 

Oh another l2p thread.... just as common as the PT/vanny nerf threads. -Geee never seen these before... :rolleyes:

 

This community is loaded with mint.

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Well thermal det and Incendiary missile was reduced to 10 meters and sweltering heats snare was reduced to 30%. Not sure if that will bring them more into melee but I will take it these guys tare me apart.

 

[Nevermind]

Edited by DacRycar
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Heh, yeah, that was the first thing that came to mind after I posted: "Huh, maybe a patch note just went up..." D'oh!

 

As for the change, I'm trying to visualize it. Obviously any "gap closing" rotation went right out the window. This feels very unbalanced as "other melee" classes have a gap closer – whether it be a charge, a sprint or an ambush from steath. However, we still have Harpoon, which may now be considered a viable opener, abet on a very long cooldown. Hrmm...

 

This obviously doesn't change our rotation or damage once we're in range, which is the biggest complaint players have.

Edited by DacRycar
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Oh another l2p thread.... just as common as the PT/vanny nerf threads. -Geee never seen these before... :rolleyes:

 

This community is loaded with mint.

 

Not at all. I take it you didn't read the entire post, so i'll just sum it up for you.

 

Vanguard = Low Survivability with Balanced Damage = EA/BW will not nerf.

 

:cool:

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Heh, yeah, that was the first thing that came to mind after I posted: "Huh, maybe a patch note just went up..." D'oh!

 

As for the change, I'm trying to visualize it. Obviously any "gap closing" rotation went right out the window. This feels very unbalanced as "other melee" classes have a gap closer – whether it be a charge, a sprint or an ambush from steath. However, we still have Harpoon, which may now be considered a viable opener, abet on a very long cooldown. Hrmm...

 

This obviously doesn't change our rotation or damage once we're in range, which is the biggest complaint players have.

 

You won't need a gap closer against melee classes because naturally they will come to you in order to dish out damage. Like I said the biggest encounter that these changes will affect is with snipers, as good ones will be able to put out a considerable amount of damage on you before you get in range for your burst rotation, not to mention they have multiple knockbacks/stuns in order to keep you out of that 10m range. If you catch that sniper out of cover though and can pull him/her in, then game on.

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Since playing the VG to see what all the complaints were about... I can see it. With my VG I don't do more dps than other classes, but I deal all my dmg up front in 1 string of bursts. No one can really survive it excepts tanks. I think that's what people hate 1v1. But when in a cluster f * ck of people ae'ing and maybe one range focusing me, I don't stay up all that long, actually I stay up for a decent amount of time if my shield cd is up. Nothing close to mara's/sents or shadows/sins tho.

 

Most classes ramp up to their burst, VG's/Pyro's burst is immediate. With the best gear, a VG/Pyro can take out about 2 people within 10 secs of lucky bursts. It is a bit "wth!?" but after that they don't have any ammo and are sitting ducks for a good while. I don't think BW/EA really understand the mechanics as I believe devs don't really know how to play any classes in PVP. I don't think they care for PVP at all. Look at all the future plans they have... PVE based with 1 measly wz thrown out there for pvper's.

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Since playing the VG to see what all the complaints were about... I can see it. With my VG I don't do more dps than other classes, but I deal all my dmg up front in 1 string of bursts. No one can really survive it excepts tanks. I think that's what people hate 1v1. But when in a cluster f * ck of people ae'ing and maybe one range focusing me, I don't stay up all that long, actually I stay up for a decent amount of time if my shield cd is up. Nothing close to mara's/sents or shadows/sins tho.

 

Most classes ramp up to their burst, VG's/Pyro's burst is immediate. With the best gear, a VG/Pyro can take out about 2 people within 10 secs of lucky bursts. It is a bit "wth!?" but after that they don't have any ammo and are sitting ducks for a good while. I don't think BW/EA really understand the mechanics as I believe devs don't really know how to play any classes in PVP. I don't think they care for PVP at all. Look at all the future plans they have... PVE based with 1 measly wz thrown out there for pvper's.

 

Agreed. I think that's why most players think a Vanguard is "OP". We deal our damage up front BUT the trade off is our low to zero survivability when focused. Only defensive CD we got is a crappy shield on a 2 min CD and a crappy HoT that sometimes you wonder if it is even healing you it does so little healing. Basically, a Vanguard has no outs in pvp. No cloak, no force speed, no self healing. We are the one class that you will find yourself dying ALOT in WZs when focused. Bottom line EA/BW knows this im sure and will leave Vanguard the way it is.

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With the best gear, a VG/Pyro can take out about 2 people within 10 secs of lucky bursts.

i was with you up until this point.

 

10s = 6 GCD. lets say 7. even giving you a freebie up front, 8 abilities.

 

you will only be able to use thermal detonator once.

 

so, you open with:

  • incendiary missile
  • thermal detonator
  • railshot
  • (assuming you're in range now)rocket punch
  • railshot

assuming all 5 crits, and you're in WH gear, vs. a recruit, it is possible that you just killed him

 

now let's review where you're at.

 

you've now used up 5 of your 8 GCDs, with 3 to go, no thermal detonator, and prototype particle accelerator is now on cooldown, and won't be up again within the time you have.

 

so now, you have no rail shot, no rocket punch, no thermal detonator.

 

explain to me how you're going to kill the 2nd guy in recruit gear with 3 abilities?

 

gross exaggeration only makes your entire argument less credible.

Edited by oredith
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Agreed. I think that's why most players think a Vanguard is "OP". We deal our damage up front BUT the trade off is our low to zero survivability when focused. Only defensive CD we got is a crappy shield on a 2 min CD and a crappy HoT that sometimes you wonder if it is even healing you it does so little healing. Basically, a Vanguard has no outs in pvp. No cloak, no force speed, no self healing. We are the one class that you will find yourself dying ALOT in WZs when focused. Bottom line EA/BW knows this im sure and will leave Vanguard the way it is.

 

I think you PT/Vanguard guys are in denial. You just got jacked. At this point you are on rough parity with Merc Pyros. Who were already the worst dps subclass in the game. And then got nerfed again in 1.4. Under the 1.4 mechanics PTs are going to be dog food for concealment dps. Of which there will be MANY.

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I think you PT/Vanguard guys are in denial. You just got jacked. At this point you are on rough parity with Merc Pyros. Who were already the worst dps subclass in the game. And then got nerfed again in 1.4. Under the 1.4 mechanics PTs are going to be dog food for concealment dps. Of which there will be MANY.

 

Except nothing changed for concealment ops besides a 30 second reduction on the escape skill, and a short duraction 50% sprint. It's not really anything that will turn the tide too much if the battle is losing.

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"No survivability"

Heavy armor.

Reactive Shield

Instant

Cooldown: 120s

Reduces all damage taken by 25% for 12 seconds.

 

 

"Can't heal ourselves"

Adrenaline Rush

Instant

Cooldown: 180s

Restores 15% of maximum health over 10 seconds.

 

 

"Can't stealth"

Stealth Scan

Instant

Cooldown: 20s

Range: 30 m

Fires off probes that scan the area for stealthed opponents. The probes last for 10 seconds.

Nobody else can stealth either.

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"No survivability"

Heavy armor.

Reactive Shield

Instant

Cooldown: 120s

Reduces all damage taken by 25% for 12 seconds.

yay, again we have the "heavy armor" argument!

 

please remind me again how helpful that heavy armor is against force attacks?

"Can't heal ourselves"

Adrenaline Rush

Instant

Cooldown: 180s

Restores 15% of maximum health over 10 seconds.

woohoo. with 20k HP.. that's a..

let me use some toes to count here..

300 HP per second! WOOHOO!!!!!

"Can't stealth"

Stealth Scan

Instant

Cooldown: 20s

Range: 30 m

Fires off probes that scan the area for stealthed opponents. The probes last for 10 seconds.

Nobody else can stealth either.

except the stealthers can see the area you're probing. ..

 

oh, you mean the ones that are already in combat with you? yeah, stealth's not much of an issue, but mostly because they only pop stealth long enough to use their shoot-first type ability.

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yay, again we have the "heavy armor" argument!

 

please remind me again how helpful that heavy armor is against force attacks?

woohoo. with 20k HP.. that's a..

let me use some toes to count here..

300 HP per second! WOOHOO!!!!!

 

except the stealthers can see the area you're probing. ..

 

oh, you mean the ones that are already in combat with you? yeah, stealth's not much of an issue, but mostly because they only pop stealth long enough to use their shoot-first type ability.

 

How useful is heavy armor against force attacks? You're serious? You hide behind good language but it's obvious you lack basic knowledge of the game.

 

Try playing a class with light armor then you'll realize how important heavy armor is.

 

Saying vanguard isn't overpowered is wrong. It's overpowered in terms of damage, it has low sruvivability, sure, but it still has a bit too high damage (as many others in this game, cough marauders and snipers)

 

/guy with war hero powertech/war hero marauder/war hero assassin/war hero sniper/war hero operative

Edited by Reveillere
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How useful is heavy armor against force attacks? You're serious? You hide behind good language but it's obvious you lack basic knowledge of the game.
I think it is you who needs to gain some basic knowledge of game mechanics.

Try playing a class with light armor then you'll realize how important heavy armor is.

interestingly, light armor is EXACTLY the same effectiveness as heavy armor vs. force attacks, because armor does not mitigate force.

 

:rolleyes:

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pyros are not op. and all gear/cds being up, I would expect a skilled sent/mara to dust off a skilled assault/pyro more often than not. they're just easy to play. you can do as much or more dmg with a couple other classes. the JKs/Wars in melee and the two viable ranged ACs.

 

the utility of their taunts is kinda OP though. however, that's an issue with EVERY AC that has a tank tree.

Edited by foxmob
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How useful is heavy armor against force attacks? You're serious? You hide behind good language but it's obvious you lack basic knowledge of the game.

 

Try playing a class with light armor then you'll realize how important heavy armor is.

 

Saying vanguard isn't overpowered is wrong. It's overpowered in terms of damage, it has low sruvivability, sure, but it still has a bit too high damage (as many others in this game, cough marauders and snipers)

 

/guy with war hero powertech/war hero marauder/war hero assassin/war hero sniper/war hero operative

 

Yes, but you have to understand the tradeoff. I wouldn't say our damage is overpowered. You wanna see overpowered damage I dare you to 1v1 a marauder in full war hero gear and watch as your health bar literally disappears in a matter of seconds.

 

I'm really glad that you guys dont work for BW/EA or we'd see every single class nerfed into the ground cause it's damage was "overpowered". In every mmo i've played it's always been the same thing. Everyone's class is overpowered but your own. No. Vanguard is perfectly fine where its at. And like I said before, if any class will get nerfed it's going to be the marauder.

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the utility of their taunts is kinda OP though. however, that's an issue with EVERY AC that has a tank tree.
this actually confused me a bit when i first started playing the PT (i leveled him to tank, surprisingly).

 

I would have figured that taunts would only be available in the tanking form, similar to guard.

 

doesn't really make sense to me why the DPS ac has taunts.

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I think it is you who needs to gain some basic knowledge of game mechanics.

 

interestingly, light armor is EXACTLY the same effectiveness as heavy armor vs. force attacks, because armor does not mitigate force.

 

:rolleyes:

 

/facepalm

 

There's no such thing as "force attack", there are 5 different damage types in the game; kinetic, energy, internal, elemental and weapon damage. Force attack is only used to describe kinetic or energy damage made by force using classes. And kinetic and energy damage is mitigated by armor thus is "force attacks" mitigated by armor.

 

SWTOR 101

 

Edit: and also, if that is your character on that askmrrobot page, your whole build is a fail.

Edited by Reveillere
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/facepalm

 

There's no such thing as "force attack", there are 5 different damage types in the game; kinetic, energy, internal, elemental and weapon damage. Force attack is only used to describe kinetic or energy damage made by force using classes. And kinetic and energy damage is mitigated by armor thus is "force attacks" mitigated by armor.

 

SWTOR 101

there's actually only 4 damage types: internal, energy, elemental, and kinetic.

There are 4 attack types: Melee, Ranged, Tech, and Force

 

you are mixing up your terminalogy, and/or choosing to misread mine.

 

i didn't say "force damage", i said force attack.

 

if you want to be more technical about it, armor only defends against energy and and kinetic damage - ie, the 2 types of damage not done by most force attacks.

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there's actually only 4 damage types: internal, energy, elemental, and kinetic.

There are 4 attack types: Melee, Ranged, Tech, and Force

 

you are mixing up your terminalogy, and/or choosing to misread mine.

 

i didn't say "force damage", i said force attack.

 

if you want to be more technical about it, armor only defends against energy and and kinetic damage - ie, the 2 types of damage not done by most force attacks.

 

And, how surprising, you're wrong again. There are 5 types of damage, as I listed, check your abilities. And also "force attacks" are pretty much always kinetic or energy (unless they're a dot)

 

For the luls: I dare you to find an ability that is "force attack" (and is not a dot) and doesn't do kinetic or energy damage, don't come back without a screenshot in-game, ty.

 

And also, you don't need to say what I just said in your posts, doesn't make any sense

 

Yes, but you have to understand the tradeoff. I wouldn't say our damage is overpowered. You wanna see overpowered damage I dare you to 1v1 a marauder in full war hero gear and watch as your health bar literally disappears in a matter of seconds.

 

I'm really glad that you guys dont work for BW/EA or we'd see every single class nerfed into the ground cause it's damage was "overpowered". In every mmo i've played it's always been the same thing. Everyone's class is overpowered but your own. No. Vanguard is perfectly fine where its at. And like I said before, if any class will get nerfed it's going to be the marauder.

 

The game isn't balanced around 1v1 that has been stated over 100 times by BioWare (from a 1v1 point of view I would even go as far as saying pyro powertech is underpowered, but that's not what we're discussing), and the damage output from a pyro powertech is too high compared to other classes because of 1. high crit chance 2. easy resource management 3. powerful dots 4. hard hitting abilities. A pyro powertech can replace and do a better job than any dps class in the game, together with marauder and sniper.

Edited by Reveillere
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