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Giving Op/Sc Healing a Purpose

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Giving Op/Sc Healing a Purpose

matthewcreech's Avatar


matthewcreech
02.17.2012 , 01:49 PM | #11
I have weighed in a similar angle, because a Healing Shiv would be awesome.

Healers are a support class.

Based on the stated goals of the developers during development, I believe that they intended for Healers to have more relevance than simply making the numbers go up. That is why every healer has access to stun abilities, mesmerize abilities, defensive abilities, and so on.

The non-healing support functions of the Operative function @ <10m.

Whether intentional design or not, the Operative does not fully function @ 30m

Rather than grafting the heal onto Shiv, a separate melee heal would be optimal.

Making Kolto Infusion a melee instant heal (with a talented secondary buff) would be worth stepping in momentarily for.

Alternately, allowing our other abilities to function @ 30m could solve this going the other direction.

bobudo's Avatar


bobudo
02.17.2012 , 02:31 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Xaearth View Post
Let me repeat, I'm not trying to pigeonhole Operatives into melee healers.
Just because that's not your intent doesn't mean that it would be the practical effect of your suggestion (in this instance).

Quote: Originally Posted by Xaearth View Post
It seems you're getting stuck on that and missing my actual point here.
1) Fact: Operatives are by and far the worst healbots
2) Fact: Operatives are the only healer class that brings nothing to the group outside of being a healbot, except in ranges <10m
3) Fact: As long as both 1 & 2 remain true, Operative healers are completely pointless and worthless

It seems you want to change #1. The problem with that is the fact that Mercenaries/Commandos seem to be designed to be the best single target healbot. That leaves Operatives/Scoundrels as the group healbot.
False. Your concept of "healbot" and the changes I want to make are flawed.

Niche healers are not going to work in this game, given that Sorcerer/Sage can already fill both Single- and Multi-Target healing at the same time.

Thus, I want both Operative/Scoundrel & Commando/Mercenary healing to do that as well; anything less than that will still leave both classes as sub-par group choices for high-end PvE, as you can always just bring the class that does both.

Quote: Originally Posted by Xaearth View Post
The problem is, our group heal, Recuperative Nanotech/Kolto Cloud, is not designed in a fashion that could ever make that work. It's an instant cast area of effect HoT buff. Am I the only one that really sees how overpowered it would be if it had no target cap?
No, not overpowered, equal. Overpowered is a subjective term requiring a comparison. The Sorcerer/Sage AoE does double the healing in half the time without a target cap. The trade-off is the lack of mobility.

Given that there is a AoE heal without a target cap, and that PvE content appears to be specifically designed around this ability, continuing to fail to give Operative/Scoundrel healers a means of healing the entire party will mean they continue to be unused in PvE.

While any changes made to RN/KC will need to account for the lack of a mobility cost, 50% is too much,, especially considering how long it takes for RN/KC to heal for its reduced amount.

Quote: Originally Posted by Xaearth View Post
I'm not suggesting making the Operative/Scoundrel outright stronger than the other healers (which is the only way healbotting could ever work for the class without a total rework/overhaul, for the simple fact that we get the short end of both the resource and mechanics stick).

Instead, I'm suggesting accentuating the Operative/Scoundrel mobility. Let us dance in and out of melee, give us the tools (more leaning towards improving our existing ones) to do it without getting splatted, and make it all mean something to the group.
Explain to me how those qualities would make us more desirable in PvE.

Explain to me how you're going to convince a group to bring a healer that, to perform to its potential, has to go where they don't otherwise let healers go.

In order to achieve your goals, you ARE asking for a complete reworking of the class:
  1. Countering incoming damage from short-range AoE effects (someone has to heal the healer!)
  2. Countering cast-time interrupts.
  3. Countering all the moving which will inevitably put you in harms way of other things.
  4. Countering the fact that other healers don't need to move to 10-4m to heal (i.e. why bring a liability to your group).

Countering those issues is not insignificant. Operative/Scoundrel healers would need to be able to run around (unless you're giving them a closer move), take damage that doesn't need to be healed, not get interrupted (already a Merc/Commando ability) and still be significantly more powerful healers such that it would be worth bringing them.

You need to approach this problem like a group, not from "what you think would be cool". No group would ever want to bring the healer you are describing unless their benefits outweighed the costs. In order to overcome the significant costs of the healer you've described, they would need to be significantly more powerful than the other classes.

Quote: Originally Posted by Xaearth View Post
Let us heal solely from range effectively (read: more effective than we do now) but slightly less so than the other classes (improving the manageability of our HoTs should go a ways in accomplishing this). But when we're at the top of our game, we should bring a tangible and sought after, but not outright required (read: Sorc/Sage AoE), asset to the group.
You're ideas don't solve this problem, they make it worse.

An 8-man group needs: 1 tank, 5 DPS, 2 healers. This is a trinity MMO that seeks to minimize hybridization (per the quote in my previous post). That means content is designed around bringing those 3 roles in that representation (thus the need for enrage timers). Groups do not want, nor will they be successful, bringing a heals + DPS hybrid.

Given that that the Sorcerer/Sage AoE will remain required for all content (since you wouldn't change any other classes ability to AoE heal), 8-man groups would only have 1 open healer slot. Given the option, high-performing groups will bring the best healer.

If you fail to fully correct the flaws of Operative/Scoundrel healers, and instead just tack on some melee range DPS abilities, an 8-man group will always pick one of the other two classes.

Quote: Originally Posted by Xaearth View Post
The benefit would be HPS. It already gives (or should, not sure how well it scales in top tier gear yet) that benefit, but it's severely diminished by the fact that we're weighing the cost of that TA at 25 energy and ~2s to to begin with.
Except we're not hurting for single target HPS, and the cost/benefit of Kolto Infusion/Kolto Pack would still be too high vs. Kolto Infusion/Underworld Medicine

Quote: Originally Posted by Xaearth View Post
Yes, I'm suggesting that considering TA from Shiv rather than Kolto Injection changes the cost of that TA, and therefore the cost/benefit analysis of Kolto Infusion itself. Even moreso if you grant other benefits to using Shiv.

I'm not saying Kolto Infusion's numbers shouldn't be looked at, I'm saying the devs have to look at all the numbers, and the Shiv -> Kolto Infusion numbers are most likely the most efficient ones.
Even more efficient is using a TA/UH generated from KP/SRMP to cast Kolto Infusion/Kolto Pack, but that still doesn't make anyone want to cast it.

Why? Because it saves you 5 whole energy from a Kolto Injection, and .5 seconds. That really means it only saves you 2 energy, since you lose half a tick of energy regen from the shorter casting time.

In the mean time, you've wasted valuable healing time running up to a mob and shiving it. I don't know what boss fights you've been playing, but the only time I stop healing is to (1) move out of bad or (2) to exit area. I don't know where you're going to find the time to close distance to a mob to shiv - let alone cast all the defensive buffs you want to make melee range survivable - for a TA to cast a heal that heals for the same amount as your slightly more costly "main heal"

Or look at it this way - if it takes you more than .5 seconds to close the distance to a mob, shiv it, and start casting Kolto Infusion (this is a mechanical impossibility), then it is in fact less efficient than Kolto Injection.
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bobudo's Avatar


bobudo
02.17.2012 , 02:44 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by matthewcreech View Post
I have weighed in a similar angle, because a Healing Shiv would be awesome.
Awesome for who - the healer or the group. Because if it's not the group, then the healer will be sitting on the fleet doing nothing.

Quote: Originally Posted by matthewcreech View Post
Healers are a support class.

Based on the stated goals of the developers during development, I believe that they intended for Healers to have more relevance than simply making the numbers go up. That is why every healer has access to stun abilities, mesmerize abilities, defensive abilities, and so on.
Given that every class has access to these abilities and doesn't have to sacrifice their viability in their main role, I don't see how this is relevant.

Quote: Originally Posted by matthewcreech View Post
The non-healing support functions of the Operative function @ <10m.
Yeah, but they also don't have the same cooldowns that the Sorcerer version does. There are trade-offs for the range requirements (that they don't do enough to make everything function (Sleep Dart) is a mechanics issue, not a range issue).

Quote: Originally Posted by matthewcreech View Post
Whether intentional design or not, the Operative does not fully function @ 30m
A healing Operative (to the extent that it functions at all) [u]does[/] fully function at healing when @ 30m.

Quote: Originally Posted by matthewcreech View Post
Rather than grafting the heal onto Shiv, a separate melee heal would be optimal.
No, it would not (see above).

Quote: Originally Posted by matthewcreech View Post
Making Kolto Infusion a melee instant heal (with a talented secondary buff) would be worth stepping in momentarily for.
No it would not. You'd have to close ~20-30m to use it. Unless you can do that in 1.5s (or Kolto Infusion's heal gets buffed by a significant amount), you would have been better off casting Surgical Probe, rather than not casting for the time it takes you to get close and move out of harms way - and that doesn't even account for the damage you'll take while you do that.

Quote: Originally Posted by matthewcreech View Post
Alternately, allowing our other abilities to function @ 30m could solve this going the other direction.
No. Our other abilities are not healing abilities, ergo, they are irrelevant to the healing conversation.

The design goals of this game were to turn you into a Main (Tank/DPS/Healer) depending on your spec. That means that classes all have abilities that they aren't going to use in their main role; stated another way: just because you have it does not mean you were supposed to use it.

A Tanking-Specced Juggernaut has a DPS stance they could use; that does not mean they were intended to leave their Tanking stance to do so.

Similarly, a Healing-Specced Operatve has DPS abilities, but that doesn't mean they should be using them.
Bioware hates healing such that they won't take any healing problems seriously. Support your local healers. Boycott the Patch 1.2 Healing Nerfs. Make it clear to the Devs that their idea of "balance" is unacceptable. Unsubscribe Today

Xaearth's Avatar


Xaearth
02.17.2012 , 03:12 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by bobudo View Post
You're ideas don't solve this problem, they make it worse.

An 8-man group needs: 1 tank, 5 DPS, 2 healers. This is a trinity MMO that seeks to minimize hybridization (per the quote in my previous post). That means content is designed around bringing those 3 roles in that representation (thus the need for enrage timers). Groups do not want, nor will they be successful, bringing a heals + DPS hybrid.

Given that that the Sorcerer/Sage AoE will remain required for all content (since you wouldn't change any other classes ability to AoE heal), 8-man groups would only have 1 open healer slot. Given the option, high-performing groups will bring the best healer.

If you fail to fully correct the flaws of Operative/Scoundrel healers, and instead just tack on some melee range DPS abilities, an 8-man group will always pick one of the other two classes.
Maybe it's just on my server, but ever since the surge nerf I've seen more and more discussions about how even the min/maxers are having to squeeze out enough DPS to beat the enrage in NM. Every single time the answer has been "Get your healer to throw some more DPS in between heals".

Operative healers can't do that. That is another of their flaws.

Other than that, it seems we're at an impasse.

You want the healers to be equal, and I don't see the mechanics allowing that to happen.

You believe that Operatives would have to be significantly more powerful to tradeoff going into melee range, and I believe that Operatives would have to be significantly more powerful to tradeoff not having the other healers' long range utility.

That said, I'll address more of your points (as well as how I'd make Operative healers not be a burden in melee range) later... think a mild fever's getting to me and I can't put my arguments together well enough atm.
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matthewcreech's Avatar


matthewcreech
02.17.2012 , 03:24 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by bobudo View Post
The design goals of this game were to turn you into a Main (Tank/DPS/Healer) depending on your spec. That means that classes all have abilities that they aren't going to use in their main role; stated another way: just because you have it does not mean you were supposed to use it.
Similarly, a Healing-Specced Operatve has DPS abilities, but that doesn't mean they should be using them.
Selective quoting from waaaaaaay back:
Quote:
The ‘Sawbones’ skill-set on the other hand offers ways to dramatically improve the Smuggler’s healing and support-related abilities...
or they could decide that a ‘Stealth Healer’ role with points distributed between the Scrapper and Sawbones trees might be the role they want to play in Star Wars: The Old Republic.
Source
At one point, they had a more diverse notion about what a healer could be, but this was also around the same time they still had a ranged tank at range.

bobudo's Avatar


bobudo
02.17.2012 , 03:26 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Xaearth View Post
Maybe it's just on my server, but ever since the surge nerf I've seen more and more discussions about how even the min/maxers are having to squeeze out enough DPS to beat the enrage in NM. Every single time the answer has been "Get your healer to throw some more DPS in between heals".
I haven't gotten to raid since before the surge nerf, so I wouldn't know

Quote: Originally Posted by Xaearth View Post
That said, I'll address more of your points (as well as how I'd make Operative healers not be a burden in melee range) later... think a mild fever's getting to me and I can't put my arguments together well enough atm.
Yuck! I hope you feel better (and I'm glad you don't live near me!! )!!

Like I said in my previous post (my post-post post?) I know that you and I are approaching this from different directions. To me, that we can look at once class and see two different designs shows just how broken it is. But it also means there's hope.

That's why I'm so much enjoying this discussion/argument; it means that as broken as this class is, it's not hopeless. I'll concede that my failure to see the benefits to the design you're talking about might just as easily be a failure of imagination as anything else, but hammering out the pros and cons of this idea is really a blast.
Bioware hates healing such that they won't take any healing problems seriously. Support your local healers. Boycott the Patch 1.2 Healing Nerfs. Make it clear to the Devs that their idea of "balance" is unacceptable. Unsubscribe Today

bobudo's Avatar


bobudo
02.17.2012 , 03:34 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by matthewcreech View Post
Selective quoting from waaaaaaay back:

At one point, they had a more diverse notion about what a healer could be, but this was also around the same time they still had a ranged tank at range.
I wonder when Georg shifted from that to the no-hybridizing approach I quoted from.

I'll come clean: my dislike for this idea is mostly personal, because that's not the sort of healer I want to play, but I can't play a class as anything less than effective (in another thread someone accused me a being a min-maxer, they were correct )

I rolled the class because I expected it to be the HoT healer (ala Druid ), and that's the design approach I take towards fixing the class, because that's the healer I'd most like to play.

That said, I don't think the current toolset and mechanics lends itself to range or "melee" healing, and that the class needs a serious overhaul regardless. As long as it gets that attention, I'll consider our efforts here a success, even if I have to find out that my design paradigm was wrong.

But don't think that doesn't mean I'll argue this to the death. I want the devs to be able to look at our threads and see the pros and cons listed out and refined down to perfection. The simpler we can make the conceptual phase of the overhaul, the faster we'll see the fruits.

Mmm, fruits.
Bioware hates healing such that they won't take any healing problems seriously. Support your local healers. Boycott the Patch 1.2 Healing Nerfs. Make it clear to the Devs that their idea of "balance" is unacceptable. Unsubscribe Today

matthewcreech's Avatar


matthewcreech
02.18.2012 , 06:23 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by bobudo View Post
I wonder when Georg shifted from that to the no-hybridizing approach I quoted from.

I'll come clean: my dislike for this idea is mostly personal, because that's not the sort of healer I want to play, but I can't play a class as anything less than effective (in another thread someone accused me a being a min-maxer, they were correct )

I rolled the class because I expected it to be the HoT healer (ala Druid ), and that's the design approach I take towards fixing the class, because that's the healer I'd most like to play.

That said, I don't think the current toolset and mechanics lends itself to range or "melee" healing, and that the class needs a serious overhaul regardless. As long as it gets that attention, I'll consider our efforts here a success, even if I have to find out that my design paradigm was wrong.

But don't think that doesn't mean I'll argue this to the death. I want the devs to be able to look at our threads and see the pros and cons listed out and refined down to perfection. The simpler we can make the conceptual phase of the overhaul, the faster we'll see the fruits.

Mmm, fruits.
The question you stated is something that I have been pondering more and more recently. I wonder if the reality of getting such a massive project out the door, combined with whip cracks from EA spurred them to the more limited and finite approach we see today. Not something we are likely to get definitive insights on though.

I have similar impulses regarding optimization, but I also like to have choices. The more finite and clear it is how to build a character "correctly" the less interested I am. A part of the fun is optimizing and making the character your best, as opposed to copy / pasting from the internet, and pressing a macro in time to a metronome. Allowing players enough room to play in a world with their characters to discover things gives birth to emergent gameplay and those moments that can't be had anywhere else.

In the spirit of candor, I was never a fan of the tree druid. I rolled an Operative because I was interested in something fresh. ( I guess trees can be fresh, but with their roots rarely touching water, that seems unlikley )

To explicitly state my notion of range, I think the operative is geared towards medium range, I gravitate to just outside of 10m to stay outside of AoE and pop inside 10m when I want to drop an ability that hs limited range. Only 1 heal has me standing still, so I tend towards skirmishing. A close / medium range heal makes more sense when you aren't already standing as far away as possible.
A single strong melee heal reinforces the notion of movement and skirmishing. An array of melee range healing techniques would encourage us to stay in melee range, but frankly we aren't built for prolonged exposure at melee range.

If the operative continues down the path of instant HoT heals, you will have more freedom to move. A strong limited range heal would encourage Operatives to use their mobility. The alternative is most Operatives rooting in one place hugging a wall like wallflowers. They might as well turn us into a tree then.

I enjoy discussing and debating these things, so keep it coming. My operative might not see much attention otherwise until 1.2

Aluscia's Avatar


Aluscia
02.18.2012 , 09:18 PM | #19
What I would like to see the most for us is another HoT. Turn Kolto Pack/Infusion into an instant-cast HoT that heals for roughly the same as 2 stacks of Slow-Release, lasts as long (15-18s is fine), and still costs the UH/TA + some energy cost (maybe drop it to 10). That would give us another viable UH/TA dump, as the overall healing done per UH/TA stack would be higher at a cost of the delay in which the healing is done (and the marginal energy cost).

OR

Make Diagnostic Scan like the channeled heal Sages/Sorcs get (add a marginal cost, say 10-15 energy). Keep the crit tick mechanic the same (mimicking the free energy return Sages/Sorcs get from critting on theirs), but make the heal from it worthwhile. This helps increase the value of Alacrity to Ops/Scoundrels as well, helping us gain value out of current itemization.

Either way, if we had another worthwhile periodic heal, it would give us that extra bit of niche love (best hots in the game, compared to best (only) damage absorb for Sages/Sorcs, and best (only) reactive heals for Merc/Commandos). I don't hate how my Scoundrel plays as a healer, I just want it to do more along the already carved out lines.

Shroudveil's Avatar


Shroudveil
02.19.2012 , 05:48 AM | #20
or simply make infusion to consume KP stacks and heal for as it heals now + the remaining on the hots.

this would solve one of our problems by giving us a real burst heal.

it would heal for a lot but it couldn't be spammed since a)for burst it would require reappling the hots (3secs) and b) also energy wise it would require 75energy spent in 7.5sec which is a ton (2xkp+1xki+1xinfusion)
Quote:
Georg Zoeller: A scoundrel, for example, is capable of producing rather significant burst healing output by using Upper Hand gained from Underworld Medicine or Kolto Injection to trigger an instant Emergency Medpack or Surgical probe when needed.