Come on, man.

Roll 8 seconds. Immunity for 2 seconds after every roll.

With gear, that drops rull down to 6 seconds with 2 second immunity.

So basically 1/3rd of the time you cannot touch scoundrels.

If they take damage, evasion time is reduced.

Then add in healing.

Then add in their massive burst damage.

Why would anyone play no other class when you can heals a good as healers, your DPS is on the top of every PVP match and 33% of the time you are immune from ALL damage.

Whoever thought up this GOD class should be fired.

It's high time you took away roll immunity and cut healing by 75% (so they are on par with other classes) and make Operatives have to work as hard as other classes for kills. Not just allow them to roll over other classes.

Utter trash game right now for PVP.

Ah yes the famous 31/31/31 spec operative.

Conc is the only spec with roll immunity. When conc is rolling, they can't do damage because roll is on the GCD and most of the damage is not from DOTs. So if you are focusing a conc op hard enough that they must roll on CD for a defensive, they are losing 2.8s of damage output out of the first 8.4s (assuming tier 1 alacrity), with 2.9s immunity out of 8.5s. Conc isn't the top self healing spec either, although if you keep your HOTs up you'll keep healing during rolls. If you focus a conc op, they aren't going to be able to do more than mediocre damage because they will have to roll so much.

Leth obviously continues to do DOT damage (and healing) when rolling, and gets a significant extra self heal every 10s from roll. Leth doesn't get immunity from roll, just 30% defense chance to white damage. Leth ops are the ones who you see doing high HPS consistently while also maintaining high DPS in cleave games.

Please stop conflating the two. While a conc op jumping on you at low health can induce significant pucker factor, I'd wager there are zero leth ops in the game who inspire the same "oh crap" reflex. Leth ops just don't kill things very fast except once every 3 minutes with a double lethal strike/toxic haze combo.

Ah yes the famous 31/31/31 spec operative.

 

Conc is the only spec with roll immunity. When conc is rolling, they can't do damage because roll is on the GCD and most of the damage is not from DOTs. So if you are focusing a conc op hard enough that they must roll on CD for a defensive, they are losing 2.8s of damage output out of the first 8.4s (assuming tier 1 alacrity), with 2.9s immunity out of 8.5s. Conc isn't the top self healing spec either, although if you keep your HOTs up you'll keep healing during rolls. If you focus a conc op, they aren't going to be able to do more than mediocre damage because they will have to roll so much.

 

Leth obviously continues to do DOT damage (and healing) when rolling, and gets a significant extra self heal every 10s from roll. Leth doesn't get immunity from roll, just 30% defense chance to white damage. Leth ops are the ones who you see doing high HPS consistently while also maintaining high DPS in cleave games.

 

Please stop conflating the two. While a conc op jumping on you at low health can induce significant pucker factor, I'd wager there are zero leth ops in the game who inspire the same "oh crap" reflex. Leth ops just don't kill things very fast except once every 3 minutes with a double lethal strike/toxic haze combo.

Hmm let's see, 99% of the operatives I see in warzones are...wait for it....Concealment!

Oh and I wonder why that is.

OH! I KNOW!

The same things I said above.

Let's not forget, they heal as good as healers, DPS like the TOP DPS in the game and are NEARLY UNKILLABLE.

But yeah, must just be me.

Or the fact the warzones are FULL of Concealment Operatives.....

Come on, man.

 

Roll 8 seconds. Immunity for 2 seconds after every roll.

With gear, that drops rull down to 6 seconds with 2 second immunity.

 

So basically 1/3rd of the time you cannot touch scoundrels.

If they take damage, evasion time is reduced.

Then add in healing.

Then add in their massive burst damage.

 

Why would anyone play no other class when you can heals a good as healers, your DPS is on the top of every PVP match and 33% of the time you are immune from ALL damage.

 

Whoever thought up this GOD class should be fired.

 

It's high time you took away roll immunity and cut healing by 75% (so they are on par with other classes) and make Operatives have to work as hard as other classes for kills. Not just allow them to roll over other classes.

 

Utter trash game right now for PVP.

I'm gonna assume this is a l2p issue here. Try playing the class so you can learn how to best exploit their weakness.

I'm gonna assume this is a l2p issue here. Try playing the class so you can learn how to best exploit their weakness.

Come on we had a tournament yesterday, which has been going on for like various years.

Surprisingly Operatives have there own bracket in recent years. Why? Because no way another class can kill them.

The class is definitely broken, and has been that way since a few years. A good Operative will win any 1vs1 versus very good in other classes. A very good operative, u better run.

Yes the class is not the best in anything, it has not the best burst, but considering that they are near the top in everything is a big advantage, and still have the best escape (roll plus vanish) then all other classes make them un-killable.

A nerf is definitely needed if we need balance.

Why not just resurrect one of the million other posts like this? I mean, they're all the same.

As others are saying, people are taking aspects of each spec and creating this illusion of a god class. It's either ignorance or deliberate misinforming.

Lethality (and all periodic intensity users) are over tuned and need a bit of a nerf. They are what you're seeing in the top dps. It's insanely easy to cleave the cluster of players all standing on top of each other. But that's got nothing to do with the god roll stuff you're mentioning. Thats concealment. Lethality users are pretty easy to kill.

Concealment probably isn't doing top dps. And they're the ones with God roll. You can do top DPS as a concealment, but it probably says more about the other players in the war zone than it does the spec itself.

And saying that either spec's offheals rival a healer's heals is just plain lying. Leave the hyperbole by the wayside if you want your post taken seriously.

The reflect needs to go, that's about it. All this carry potential in 4dps arenas while having so many anti focus abilities is a broken combo.

This. Also you have to understand OP, making a post like this is going to bring all the operative mains to the thread to defend the class. If you play SWTOR pvp, you know operatives are over tuned and have been for quite some time. Good luck getting anyone who loves the class to admit it though.

This song has been sung since Onslaught came out.

If it hasn't happened yet, it likely won't anytime soon.

Totally agree though.

...they are indeed the kings of dueling, primarily because of all their single target CC. This does not mean anything for general PvP. AFAIK he's always had a separate ladder for Ops/Scoundrels, for years; this is not new.

Any excuse will do.

That's a 1v1 tournament and Snave has a separate ladder for ops/scoundrels because they are indeed the kings of dueling, primarily because of all their single target CC. This does not mean anything for general PvP. AFAIK he's always had a separate ladder for Ops/Scoundrels, for years; this is not new.

That means we have been slow in reporting this. Okay before Operatives where hard to kill, now Concealment is one of the top burst in the game plus the tools they had before. Which is what makes them actually broken, more then they ever have been. It is a problem when a class cannot be killed, due to its mechanics. A big problem in a PvP environment, and they should have got the Axe when Sins actually got it.

Do people think MMO classes/specs should be balanced around 1v1s? Bc that would be a bad mindset for this game.

If anything, the classes should be balanced around how they work in granked. And sure, balance is not this team's strong suit, but can we agree that there will always be a best dueling class. There's nothing wrong that.

The problem is when they have too many aspects of the game they're strong at. I don't mind them being the 1v1 spec. I don't mind concealment being the objective kings. Could their burst use a slight nerf? Probably not, but whiners are gonna whine. So fine. Nerf it a bit.

Lethality. Could it use a nerf? 100%. Nerf their cleave into the ground, bc their bursty cleave is too good to pass up in 8v8s. I would welcome that nerf bc I hate being forced into playing a fluffy *** dot spreading class.

And lastly, it's been said almost as much as there are threads identical to this one; 2 people can kill a concealment Op if they're not terrible. You just stun them. Its that easy. People are just too fickle to stick with it. How many times do you see a Sorc who knows what their doing lull and kite their attackers into giving up? How many times do you see a merc use their kolto overload and then 3 people peel off bc they think its futile to keep attacking them, and then never return back to attacking. What people don't realize is that some classes take a little persistence to kill. And god forbid a little tact as well. Stun the concealment OP, lay into them, and I guarantee you they're either dead or running away not doing any damage at all.

Come on we had a tournament yesterday, which has been going on for like various years.

Surprisingly Operatives have there own bracket in recent years. Why? Because no way another class can kill them.

 

The class is definitely broken, and has been that way since a few years. A good Operative will win any 1vs1 versus very good in other classes. A very good operative, u better run.

Yes the class is not the best in anything, it has not the best burst, but considering that they are near the top in everything is a big advantage, and still have the best escape (roll plus vanish) then all other classes make them un-killable.

A nerf is definitely needed if we need balance.

Byt the kidden operative players here say its a L2P issue. LOL!

And lastly, it's been said almost as much as there are threads identical to this one; 2 people can kill a concealment Op if they're not terrible. You just stun them. Its that easy. People are just too fickle to stick with it. How many times do you see a Sorc who knows what their doing lull and kite their attackers into giving up? How many times do you see a merc use their kolto overload and then 3 people peel off bc they think its futile to keep attacking them, and then never return back to attacking. What people don't realize is that some classes take a little persistence to kill. And god forbid a little tact as well. Stun the concealment OP, lay into them, and I guarantee you they're either dead or running away not doing any damage at all.

This is such a mischaracterization of how actual rounds work in ranked though, the vast majority of the time. Is it possible to kill an op? Absolutely, as you say, wait for roll immunity to end, hardstun, profit right? Super easy?

It's never that easy unless the op is bad. Because first of all, the op might not even open, he's in stealth sapping people and waiting for his team to open. So now what? Their team has already opened on their target and you have to open on someone else and then swap to the op. So now you're already behind. Then, let's assume you don't kill the op in one hardstun window, because that's very rarely going to happen. Now the op goes into full defense mode knowing it's being focused. It rolls around, heals, etc, and when **** hits the fan, it can use breaker and vanish. Now this is where the hardest part comes in. That op can sit in stealth as long as it wants to once it heals (assuming it doesn't get popped, which is basically rng). It can wait until the other team splits focus heavily onto a teammate, and choose when and whom to open on. Not to mention all of the control they have with aoe flash, roots, and double hardstun thanks to the debilitator set bonus.

The bottom line is, it's extremely risky to go for an op first when every single other class in the game is an easier kill target. Does that mean ops are impossible to kill? No, of course not. Does that mean it's impossible to catch an op off guard by going them first, winning you a round here or there? That can and certainly does happen. But in the vast majority of situations, it's a bad strategy to go for even a mediocre op first. Sorcs and mercs are infinitely better targets.

I think ops are fine by the way. I'm not advocating for any nerf, but I do get tired of seeing posts about how easy ops are to kill when it's just not true in reality.

Come on we had a tournament yesterday, which has been going on for like various years.

Surprisingly Operatives have there own bracket in recent years. Why? Because no way another class can kill them.

 

The class is definitely broken, and has been that way since a few years. A good Operative will win any 1vs1 versus very good in other classes. A very good operative, u better run.

Yes the class is not the best in anything, it has not the best burst, but considering that they are near the top in everything is a big advantage, and still have the best escape (roll plus vanish) then all other classes make them un-killable.

A nerf is definitely needed if we need balance.

Operatives have a separate bracket because they are very strong, too strong, in duels. Specifically duels. If I could set a time limit as you have in ranked and then add in acid, we wouldn't need a separate bracket.

Duels are not the same as 1v1 in the middle of a game where CD's may not be available or when a debuff gets added that reduces healing, prevents mezzes and prevents stealth.

For the record, I've said many times I'm happy with an operative nerf, mainly because reading these posts are more annoying than having some burst in-game, listening to the incessant whining or take a damage reduction? I'd be fine with it.

Pro tip. Learn to root. Learn to swap to operative when they don't have a breaker. But we all know you won't.

Pro tip. Learn to root. Learn to swap to operative when they don't have a breaker. But we all know you won't.

Okay lets turn it a bit personal without you knowing me.

Thankfully you want a nerf, imagine how much this would have been more aggressive if you did not want one.

This never gets old. Please don't nerf it so it stays.

As Snave said: Roots exists, use them. Play over their cds and don't get yourself globaled on reflect - another famous meme

If you can't listen to people's advices, do you think listening to your whining because "game too hard" will solve anything?

L2P, ty.

Signed, operative main.

I am for operatives stay the same if they wish, as a Sentinel main this spec i want to have same heals like them, being the only class with no self heals really sucks (i dont count dot spec heals cause it sucks).

I want instant 150k heal with 15 sec cd.

Or I want to actually go out of combat using Force camouflage instead of being unable to regen for 2 mins cause stuck into combat state.

As for snave well hes a troll player , well if i was operative main i would also troll ppl with "l2p" memes and use root, use their disadvantages, dont attack on reflect, bla bla same ********

Remember few months ago when shadows had 3x insta crit backstab(they were broken AF and everyone abused them), snave was my ***** cause he was non stop spamming me with messages why am i attacking and ganking him all over the warzone see snave, you only need 1 same broken class to kick your **** operative but unfortunately it was nerfed and now unussable anymore so you can defend your broken **** class cause its solo best 1v1 now

Nah, ops definitely need a nerf. A class with that much util and self-heal capability with that much damage is unbalanced. Yes, there are obvious ways to deal with them (root/CC out, swap on breaker, don't hit the Reflect even tho that should be the norm anyway) but all else even, a good operative player should be able to smoke pretty much anyone else, especially with the added pressure of having a full team. The CD on roll makes rooting semi-trivial anyways because it's basically a Mad Dash every 10 seconds on Concealment, and they still have restealth with no breaker as well as very good self-healing. It makes them top tier 1v1 class but it also makes them a really good pick for every other kind of PvP. If they weren't, nobody would play them, and queue is infested with Operatives almost as much as Marauder, which doesn't take a genius to play at a passable level.

This isn't to say there aren't other problems in PvP (it's really unbalanced rn imo) but every damage class has a drawback: Marauders have no healing outdated defensives, Sins/Sorcs/Snipers/PTs are squishy, what's the drawback for Operatives that can't be mitigated by a at worst a decent player?

Nah, ops definitely need a nerf. A class with that much util and self-heal capability with that much damage is unbalanced. Yes, there are obvious ways to deal with them (root/CC out, swap on breaker, don't hit the Reflect even tho that should be the norm anyway) but all else even, a good operative player should be able to smoke pretty much anyone else, especially with the added pressure of having a full team. The CD on roll makes rooting semi-trivial anyways because it's basically a Mad Dash every 10 seconds on Concealment, and they still have restealth with no breaker as well as very good self-healing. It makes them top tier 1v1 class but it also makes them a really good pick for every other kind of PvP. If they weren't, nobody would play them, and queue is infested with Operatives almost as much as Marauder, which doesn't take a genius to play at a passable level.

 

This isn't to say there aren't other problems in PvP (it's really unbalanced rn imo) but every damage class has a drawback: Marauders have no healing outdated defensives, Sins/Sorcs/Snipers/PTs are squishy, what's the drawback for Operatives that can't be mitigated by a at worst a decent player?

Actually Dash can be reduced to a 6 second cool down of which 2 seconds of that is ABSOLUTE IMMUNITY!

So you can heal, disappear, heal, sap, blind, stun, reflect and oh yeah, 33% of the time you are 100% immune from EVERYTHING.

The proof is watching an Operative vs 4 players keep them from capping a base because they're literally untouchable.

 

As for snave well hes a troll player , well if i was operative main i would also troll ppl with "l2p" memes and use root, use their disadvantages, dont attack on reflect, bla bla same ********

 

Remember few months ago when shadows had 3x insta crit backstab(they were broken AF and everyone abused them), snave was my ***** cause he was non stop spamming me with messages why am i attacking and ganking him all over the warzone see snave, you only need 1 same broken class to kick your **** operative but unfortunately it was nerfed and now unussable anymore so you can defend your broken **** class cause its solo best 1v1 now

This literally never happened. I don't spam people in game and I rarely, if ever, use the in game system to talk to people I don't know.

Actually Dash can be reduced to a 6 second cool down of which 2 seconds of that is ABSOLUTE IMMUNITY!

 

So you can heal, disappear, heal, sap, blind, stun, reflect and oh yeah, 33% of the time you are 100% immune from EVERYTHING.

 

The proof is watching an Operative vs 4 players keep them from capping a base because they're literally untouchable.

I'd recommend watching one of the 8v8 kickball events I have on youtube. Operatives can stall 4 players who are awful for a long time. Against two competent players, it's a MUCH shorter window and requires a good deal of "skill".

It is much easier to not watch those things though.

Operatives can stall 4 players who are awful for a long time. Against two competent players, it's a MUCH shorter window and requires a good deal of "skill".

I was going to post this, thanks for posting it.

I don't main an operative, and honestly I can *maybe* keep two competent players from capping. Not harm them in any way, just stall the cap. But most likely I end up dead in that situation.

I *have* kept 3-4 players from capping before with my op. Seriously bad, bad players. It happens. Just not to people who know what they are doing.

I have also held off 3-4 players from capping with my Jugg main. Again, these were not the best players.

There's a common theme here. And it's not *my* skill. Trust me, I generally am average at best at PvP. It turns out it is not very hard to keep bad players from capping.