so tell me why 90% of the maras in arenas play fury, instead of annihilation or carnage? because of they love fury or others have worse defenses? carnage and annihilation at least need an immunity like fury has.

all the marauder specs are good in solo ranked and none of them need buffs

 

fury is just the most common because it's a bit better than the other 2, not because the other 2 are bad and in need of help

so tell me why 90% of the maras in arenas play fury, instead of annihilation or carnage? because of they love fury or others have worse defenses? carnage and annihilation at least need an immunity like fury has.

 

This is normal in an MMO. Some builds are tuned to be more useful PvP, like adding stun or stun resist, some are better for big PvE endgame numbers and some are really good for general mission running and leveling.

 

This is why their approach to balance is so terribly wrong, in the end they are watering down the very diversity that made the game great.

 

Take healers, looonng slow casts generate massive HPS, but are mostly useless in PvP where mobility is well worth sacrificing some HPS.

 

But if some buckaroo comes along and makes both classes equal HPS wise, guess what, the class with high mobility is just plain better.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Foambreaker

I don't think they should be lumped in the same category as the other classes you mentioned. Furthermore, I've seen plenty of anni maras do fine and I've seen carn maras perform well. Granted, I imagine it's harder to do well than with merc or sniper.

 

Did you try them at arenas? I tried and saw that fury makes much more difference than both of them. They are better than Juggs, Sorcs and PTs but also worse than Fury, Mercs and Snipers.

 

It is like ;

 

Jugg, PT, Sorc < Annihilation, Carnage < Fury < Sniper, Merc

 

I had started to play as annihilation with my xawio marr char last season and it was super hard to carry a team, then I played fury and reached 2k+ rating much more easier. For this reason many maras play fury spec instead of others even they like others more. There is definetely not plenty of maras do fine as annihilation or carnage, because I know specs of almost all top rated maras. There are a few people that could make high ratings with their maras at solo rankeds and they played more than 1k games to do it. And it is also harder for furies to do better than merc and snipers.

Did you try them at arenas? I tried and saw that fury makes much more difference than both of them. They are better than Juggs, Sorcs and PTs but also worse than Fury, Mercs and Snipers.

 

It is like ;

 

Jugg, PT, Sorc < Annihilation, Carnage < Fury < Sniper, Merc

 

I had started to play as annihilation with my xawio marr char last season and it was super hard to carry a team, then I played fury and reached 2k+ rating much more easier. For this reason many maras play fury spec instead of others even they like others more. There is definetely not plenty of maras do fine as annihilation or carnage, because I know specs of almost all top rated maras. There are a few people that could make high ratings with their maras at solo rankeds and they played more than 1k games to do it. And it is also harder for furies to do better than merc and snipers.

 

It's harder for anyone not a merc or sniper to do better than a merc or sniper lol. My dps of choice is a vigi guardian. I'm just a glutton for punishment I suppose.

 

The issue is that the dps nerf was not really the primary nerf needed to mercs or snipers. So they still dominate war zones. Not playing one, I'm not sure certain of the ability to pass dps checks., I've heard both yes and no.

all the marauder specs are good in solo ranked and none of them need buffs

 

fury is just the most common because it's a bit better than the other 2, not because the other 2 are bad and in need of help

+1

/5char

u lost every1 at marauder buddy. The cc immunity point is fine but its not a huge deal, considering anni has the small heals and is the better 4s spec whereas fury is the better soloranked spec. And carnage is fine too, lets not add broken cc immunity to every spec and instead just remove it from fury cuz its annoying and doesnt need cc immunity + obfs resist anyways kthnx pick one pls eric. Edited September 26, 2017 by AlenkaSunaki

No class needs a buff.

Nearly all classes need a nerf to the defences and should be at the same defence level like vanguard/pt dd.

 

Stop begging for more defence buffs.

Better nerf 7/8 classes.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Opaknack

i am for a global nerf too, and stopping this escalation of defensive abilities, began since 4.0.

 

no more merc/mando and operative concealment stupidity.

 

It's the arena syndrom where bioware tried to make classes resisting to a 3vs1...instead of a better ranked system. arenas did a lot of damage for PvP in this game..terrible when players asked for this sh**.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Thaladan

DPS Juggs: Increased survivability, imo at the cost of damage.

Already eating a huge damage nerf thanks to the utility nerf. Only class eating a utility nerf, at that.

 

and skanks.

I haven't seen a skank in ages. Except maybe a sin; don't really check their health to confirm skank, don't know their tank spec well enough either. Edited September 26, 2017 by Ansultares

Already eating a huge damage nerf thanks to the utility nerf. Only class eating a utility nerf, at that.

 

While I am personally rather unhappy about this particular nerf as well, I do feel it necessary to say that, for vigi, if the math is anywhere in the ballpark (I'm no theory crafter keep in mind. This is literally, I'm bored and pissed off let me crunch some numbers time), the overall nerf to vigi is less than 1%. Which is well within the realm of "I'm not accounting for every possibility." I didn't do any math for focus as I don't play it. I'm just a tank main who dwebbles in vigi when tanking isn't needed.

 

Additionally, I will say that I believe the logic behind the utility nerf is that it is a damage utility not a "utility" utility. That doesn't make me any happier about it, but I think that is the logic.

 

I haven't seen a skank in ages. Except maybe a sin; don't really check their health to confirm skank, don't know their tank spec well enough either.

 

Skanking is, arguably, the way to go with guardians. Shadows seem to have at least one dps spec capable of surviving in arenas. You never hear "oh focus that squishy sin!" I do hear "oh a PT, get him", and sorc and juggie

 

I swapped my vigi guardian to skanking. As a tank main I prefer tanking anyway, and tank gear being meaningless there's no point doing less potential damage. For me the final straw was a rather frustrating "victory" in a hypergates where the imps spent too much time focusing my squishy guarding to pay attention to their node so they got stealth capped twice. I died > 10 times running with a guildie healer. After the match I made my buddy make me skank gear. Haven't regretted that decision yet. Now me and my healer buddy can hold off 6 average imps by ourselves.

 

That last point is what has people frustrated. I would like to point out that I'm not usually killing anyone when we're pulling that stunt, and it can only happen if there is another reasonable healer on the team. This is why you don't see a buff to say guardian slash though, thanks to all the whining about skanking (and I admit myself the damage / survivability is a bit high), they are nerfing tank damage. I'm not screaming unless they decide to nerf guardian slash or force sweep though as those are much more important to guardian tanks than freezing force.

the overall nerf to vigi is less than 1%.

I don't spend my time attacking target dummies. It's a 20% nerf.

 

they are nerfing tank damage.

No, they're nerfing the whole class. And it's a weak class to begin with.

 

I don't need the history lesson on skank. I ran it before it was a thing, and did my share to help popularize it. Also, I've seen you post that story in about a dozen other threads on the topic; pretty soon, I'll be telling you how you came to skank.

I don't spend my time attacking target dummies. It's a 20% nerf.

 

No, they're nerfing the whole class. And it's a weak class to begin with.

 

As I said I'm no theory crafter, so I could easily be wrong. I doubt that it's 20% if you calculate in the buffs though. Maybe I'm just being overly optimistic because I too am a long time guardian player.

 

I don't need the history lesson on skank. I ran it before it was a thing, and did my share to help popularize it. Also, I've seen you post that story in about a dozen other threads on the topic; pretty soon, I'll be telling you how you came to skank.

 

While you may not need the history lesson, there seem to be plenty others floating around who do. I'll stop telling the story if it doesn't help prove my point. I did skanking back in 3 and 4.0 too, so I'm not exactly new to it. I quit with 5 0 out of protest to dps guard. That only lasted about 4 months lol.sorry if I misphrased on the tank dps nerf, my point is both vigi and focus are getting buffs to other areas to compensate (whether or not they actually do is a different subject altogether) where tanks are getting the same nerf to the utility... with no buffs

 

And if you have read what I've said practically everywhere you know I consider guardian dps in the 3 squshiest classes along with VG and sage dps. I always felt our damage was perfectly reasonable... when we coukd stay alive long enough to do damage.

Edited September 27, 2017 by KendraP

We PVPers who have even little bit experience at PVP know that Juggernaut, Powertech, Sorcerer classes, Marauder's Annihilation, Carnage specs have too weak defenses. I also think Sniper and Merc classes definetely need nerfs to their defenses but this is arguable, but I am sure that we all know jugg, pt, sorc classes and annihilation, carnage specs of mara are very squishy and need buff to their defenses.

 

So I want to learn, our mighty developer, great jedi guardian and the best saberward user Eric Musco and his friends that could notice little bit damage differences at annihilation and carnage specs, can't see these huge defensive differences?

 

As a nonstop subscriber of this game for many years I request you to play these classes and specs at solo rankeds of TRE server, I am sure that you will be regreted for giving them low defenses and making snipers & mercs fotm. You can even cry because of sadness when you think there were players who were trying to rise their ratings even they get suffer a lot while playing with these conditions. And while you do that, you even can notice there are some wintraders and trolls that ruins arenas.

 

Player skill vs Class Buffs/Nerfs.

 

I'd like to know which classes and specs you play most often and then compare your numbers and skill to some of the top people on your server before I'd be okay with just buffing classes/specs at random.

 

If the devs buffed a class/spec every time a below average player made a thread on the forums asking for more buffs then pvp would be even more imbalanced than it was prior to these recent damage adjustments.

 

Be absolutely sure you know and understand how each classes dcds work and know for 100% sure that you are using them correctly before saying they are weak and not working properly.

 

Some ppl who pvp only know how to dps and use the wrong dcds at the wrong times. These same players are likely complaining their dcds are weak when in fact they've just been using them incorrectly.

Player skill vs Class Buffs/Nerfs.

 

I'd like to know which classes and specs you play most often and then compare your numbers and skill to some of the top people on your server before I'd be okay with just buffing classes/specs at random.

 

I play concentration sentinel dear merc player, but sorry I can't compare my numbers to top numbered people that play this class on my server because I have the toppest number in my server. And I am also a top 3 tittled sentinel, so think I am skilled enough to talk about buffing classes/specs?..

 

If the devs buffed a class/spec every time a below average player made a thread on the forums asking for more buffs then pvp would be even more imbalanced than it was prior to these recent damage adjustments.

 

I agree that's why they must care my opinions more than yours.

 

Be absolutely sure you know and understand how each classes dcds work and know for 100% sure that you are using them correctly before saying they are weak and not working properly.

 

Yeah I am absolutely sure, that's why I say.

 

Some ppl who pvp only know how to dps and use the wrong dcds at the wrong times. These same players are likely complaining their dcds are weak when in fact they've just been using them incorrectly.

 

I didn't want any buff for the spec I play, I wanted buff for the classes and specs that I don't play as main. Once juggernaut was my main and I stopped playing it even I also have a top 3 at jugg, too, so I know when to pop my dcds don't worry. I play sorcerer dps too, even I don't main or try hard with it for rating, I was sometimes playing it because it was fun, but now... It is so squishy that I can't get any fun, same as annihilation and carnage even these specs are not that squishy like sorc dps. I don't play powertech because I don't enjoy playing it but it is not hard to know it is squishy too (I still know its dcds too ^^).

 

To sum up; I complain because juggernaut, powertech and sorcs are very squishy, annihilation and carnage are also needs little bit buffs even some people thinks not, I say all these as someone whose main is Fury/Concentration. I don't say this because of lack of my knowledge about popping dcds, I say this because this is a reality that all pvpers who are experienced at pvp knows.

To sum up; I complain because juggernaut, powertech and sorcs are very squishy, annihilation and carnage are also needs little bit buffs even some people thinks not, I say all these as someone whose main is Fury/Concentration. I don't say this because of lack of my knowledge about popping dcds, I say this because this is a reality that all pvpers who are experienced at pvp knows.

 

I don't play a sent, but I do play a vigi guardian. As a guardian tank main I too feel perfectly aware of DCDs. Wanted to say kudos for bringing reasonable responses into the discussion.

 

We'll see what happens in 5.6 with utility changes I suppose.

I don't play a sent, but I do play a vigi guardian. As a guardian tank main I too feel perfectly aware of DCDs. Wanted to say kudos for bringing reasonable responses into the discussion.

 

We'll see what happens in 5.6 with utility changes I suppose.

 

1- It is normal to feel perfect as guardian tank because it has no problem.

 

2- It is a trend to focus jugg dps first at arenas, because of it is squishy.

 

3- You are a reg warzone player, don't even have any ranked warzone experience and write essays about how juggernaut is... I even can't describe this situation.

1- It is normal to feel perfect as guardian tank because it has no problem.

 

2- It is a trend to focus jugg dps first at arenas, because of it is squishy.

 

3- You are a reg warzone player, don't even have any ranked warzone experience and write essays about how juggernaut is... I even can't describe this situation.

 

If you'd read my essays you'd know that for pvp I only recently swapped from vigi to skanking. I spent a very long time moaning about the situation on here before one incident made my decision to change.

 

I understand dps guasrdians are focused first in 4v4 situations and even elsewhere should a team choose to focus on kills rather than objectives, again this prompted my switch.

 

If all I'm going to do is die repeatedly why would I go to a format where that is the only option? Ranked is only arenas, which is set drastically against dps guardians. Therefore why would I bother with the format, except maybe out of some delusion of grandeur?

Edited September 29, 2017 by KendraP

If you'd read my essays you'd know that for pvp I only recently swapped from vigi to skanking. I spent a very long time moaning about the situation on here before one incident made my decision to change.

 

 

As a VG DPS main who regularly PvPs I gotta say that you are part of the problem, not the solution. Skank tank was never intended to be a "thing" by the Devs. You are exploiting your class in a way that was never meant to be possible.

 

I understand your frustration: I can't play ranked due to my class and I'm regularly nuked in PvP, but switching to skank tank would only further ruin PvP for the other players. Hopefully the Devs will sufficiently buff DPS Guardian to make it viable - if they do, please consider switching back.

As a VG DPS main who regularly PvPs I gotta say that you are part of the problem, not the solution. Skank tank was never intended to be a "thing" by the Devs. You are exploiting your class in a way that was never meant to be possible.

 

I'd be quite interested to see an actual dev post stating that.

I'd be quite interested to see an actual dev post stating that.

Seriously. All these people claiming skank violates some sort of design principle are ridiculous. Have you seen healers in this game? They break the trinity. Neutering tanks does nothing to fix that.

Seriously. All these people claiming skank violates some sort of design principle are ridiculous. Have you seen healers in this game? They break the trinity. Neutering tanks does nothing to fix that.

 

To be fair the coming healer nerfs are going to hurt, well at least on the operative side. I don't mando so I shouldn't speak for them lol.

 

But yeah i hated skanking on pure pricinciple but it's the only way to guardian and not get destroyed in seconds. And that's not even much of an exaggeration.

I'd be quite interested to see an actual dev post stating that.

 

Fair enough, I guess I was just giving them the benefit of the doubt on that one.

 

Seriously. All these people claiming skank violates some sort of design principle are ridiculous. Have you seen healers in this game? They break the trinity. Neutering tanks does nothing to fix that.

 

Skank Tank is a better DPS class than the majority of the actual DPS classes (Merc/Mando being an exception for equally imbalanced DCDs). I would argue that there is something wrong with that...

 

But don't take my word for it, PvP on a non-FOTM DPS class and see if you reach a similar conclusion.

I say you what will happen when you play jugg dps at solo ranked...

 

They will focus you because we ranked players now that jugg is squishy and you will die in 15 seconds. Maybe you will get stunlocked and pop your enraged defense to save yourself, but no... Because of high bursts your enraged defense stacks will be wasted like your jugg in arena.

 

this pretty much sums it all up.

 

I have been playing jug since season 7, have gotten up in the 1600 rating in season 8 and in the mid 1400's in season 9 purely as a dps jug (toggling from rage/veng).

 

if you don't know how to; kite, delay charge, disengage, and deal with classes like merc/sniper you're going to have a bad time in rank.

 

personally I only do it, because I can't be bother re-rolled a new toon and i have invested everything on my jug. even with the patch that is coming, we are still not going see any real improvement to main issue with jugs. we might get better dps numbers , but we will still melt. not sure what tank jugs are going to do with piercing chill being nerf, without that they lack the dps.

 

in my opinion jug's damage performance is just fine, the things that need tweaking are the dcd's and the utilities. reflect is a 1 minute cool down that activates for 3 seconds only reflect certain types of attack with it's damage cap to 40k per a person. endure pain increases maximum health by 30% for 10 seconds, saber ward is just a bad version of mara's saber ward with a 3 minute cool down and 12 seconds of activation. then you have enrage defense which gives you 15 charges of health, every time you take damage you use a charge and gain about 6500 health (248 gear) and it can increase with relic procs to 8k. though this doesn't help much when you're in a cc stun lock and those 15 charges of health go away instantaneously and have to wait for 2 minutes for it to come back off cool down.

 

only disengage is mad dash which is a 45 second cool down that takes you flying 25 meter any direction, but if you're rooted/cc it will stop you in your track unless you take the utility to purge roots/movement impairment.

 

other ways to disengage would be utilizing mad force charge and intercede. creating distance on purpose, to avoid damage from the enemy, but doesn't really matter since most classes have 30 meter attacks.

 

this what I think needs adjustment

reflect=5 second activation, 1 minute cool down, no damage cap- utility (gives it 2 extra seconds making it 7).

endure pain=45% increase of health for 20 seconds- (tank would get the same, but 30 second like they still do)

saber ward=instead of 2 seconds of "blade tuning" make it 5, also with cc immunity upon activation for 12 seconds.

enrage defenses= 30 charges with the passive "brawn" granting cc immunity and 20% damage reduction until the end of it's activation or charges.

 

mad dash= 30 meter distances, with speed increase of 50% for 5 seconds and damage reduction increase by 20%.

 

this is some ideas that i just came up on the spot, but the purpose of a "JUGGERNAUT" is they're suppose be hard to kill and giving them vanish/stealth would just make a copy/paste of every other class that does it. so giving them passives that give them short period of damage reduction boost and cc immunity would help the dps spec alot in my opinion.

Edited October 1, 2017 by DanBlaster

We PVPers who have even little bit experience at PVP know that Juggernaut, Powertech, Sorcerer classes, Marauder's Annihilation, Carnage specs have too weak defenses.

 

see, you just ruined your whole post by including marauders and sorcs

I'd be quite interested to see an actual dev post stating that.

Lol, since when playing a class well is exploiting ? You can play your class however you want it and however is effective. Dont have to listen to devs to tell you how to play.

 

Please stop saying skank tank... there is nos such thing. If they do tanking they are tank. Thats it. Sorry to hear you get outdpsed by tanks. Maybe stop mashing buttons and unload your stuff into dcds, that helps.

 

On the topic, we should get serious nerfs to stupid dcds Mercs and Snipers have in the first place and finally balance Pts and Juggs so they get out of sorry state in solo rank. Some variety there would be nice. Ez mode in solo for those classes should end and games will get more fun

 

Edit: quoted the wrong post..

Edited October 1, 2017 by MackPol