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10-49 Bracket fairer than 50's bracket??


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People are being idiotic with the "expertise is overpowered" and "OMG they outgear me" nonsense. You get destroyed as a fresh 50 because you go against people who PVP 8+ hours a day and are good at it, in addition to being geared. In the 1 ~ 49 bracket, most people are not dedicated PVPers, they're doing the daily for EXP and maybe just learning the game.

 

I never said it was because of expertise. It's because of all the stats. They have double the crit-rate, double the surge (or power), 50% more health, and to top it all off then they have 10% expertise and relics.

 

I never said i get destroyed anyways. It's the complete opposite, _I_ destroy fresh 50's without even having to try _JUST_ because of the gear advantage i have. They can use every single cooldown they have and i don't have to use a single cooldown, i can just 3-4 shot them with standard abilities.

 

So, i can easily see why people don't want to try to compete in the 50's bracket given how terrible the gearing system is.

Edited by SeanPoe
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You can PVE and improve your gear, the PVE gear will have more endurance and primary stats than the equal PVP gear, and thus you aren't at a huge disadvantage. Every single day you can do dailies to improve your gear to 49 epics. Do those dailies and the PVP dailies and you will rapidly improve your gear.

 

This is good, constructive advice. That aside, you don't have to worry about what to do in order to even have a chance in the lower bracket. We're talking about how to better compete vs. how to not get utterly destroyed by math.

 

If these extra efforts bought you something new, like a WZ you could only get at 50, or lol-Illum that you actually wanted to do, I could understand. As it is, it just buys you a ticket from the front of the line to the back of a much longer line, for the same thing you were already doing.

 

Why bother? If it was for the sake of competing against better players, then it should be like WoW's tournament servers (everyone gets the same gear). What's left? Gear/advantages. I don't need gear as a motivation to PvP, and the only advantage I need is the lack of a severe disadvantage.

Edited by BDutch
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10-49 is very gear and level dependent. At level 40 in full pvp gear, i can kill 2 or 3 lower levels than me. People don't bother gearing up at these brackets so they can get owned easily.

 

10-49 bracket, all you have to do is spend a day getting the top tier gear or top tier item modifications and you are set. Level 50 bracket will take weeks but you no longer have to update until bioware releases a new tier of gear.

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People don't magically get better just because they hit 50 or even got the battlemaster title. 90% of the players at level 50 are still terrible just like 90% of the players in the lowbie bracket are terrible. In fact, i would say even more players are bad in the 50's bracket than the lowbie bracket at this point. Most of the people in lowbie bracket are rerolling alts, most of the people in 50 brackets only have that one character. You can see for yourself, almost every single person below level 32 in the lowbie bracket has a legacy name.

 

The so-called hardcore or skilled pvp'ers are actually rerolling alts now and leveling them through pvp because, 1) they already finished gearing their main in full BM gear, and 2) the end game is terrible and there's nothing to really do. Why pvp in the 50's bracket with a fully geared character that can run around 2-3 shotting everyone when you can reroll an alt and do pvp still but in a more balanced setting? It's certainly more fun for me anyways and my alt is only level 30 with full green quest gear.

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I have a 50 shadow and 46 Sage, through the 10-49 bracket I top the charts on both my characters, on my shadow I was getting 9-10 medals a warzone, top KB's top damage etc... On my sage, it's a similar story, things felt a lot more balanced, in some cases I had more trouble from low level players who knew hot to play than from the 40+ level players, some of whom just seemed clueless.

 

So I dinged 50 today on my shadow and I'm shocked at the difference, I knew it would be difficult due to a gear imbalance but I never expected it to be anywhere near this bad. On my server, so far tonight out of 22 warzones I have played, we won....3. Those 3 we won, were because of a very well geared premade.

 

Every other warzone was loss, loss, loss, loss, loss, some of them , no matter what we did or tried, what tactics we employed we still lost, in some cases it was complete slaughter.

 

The imps we are playing against, outnumber us, outgear us massively and we are stuck in a viscous circle, we need to win to gear up, but we hardly ever win because we are outgeared, so HOW are we supposed to compete?

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There is a whole lot of fail going on in reading comprehension on this thread.

 

Things I did NOT say:

-Level 50 bracket is fair

-Anything about either bracket being more or less fun

-Anything about the rng of the champion bags

 

My main point was that the level 10-49 bracket is less FAIR then the level 50 bracket, not less fun.

 

Now there are misconceptions that people are having and I'll spell them out.

 

First, if your level 10 ALT is rocking it in warzones, maybe because it's your ALT and not your first character. Thus you have a massive skill advanatage over other players. Additionally, 90% of players in 10-49 bracket suck and don't know what they are doing, thus the competition isn't very good. This doesn't make it any more fair, just means you've played more.

 

Second, conversely to that...players who have valor rank 60 have put an ish ton of time into the game. Thus regardless of gear, they are going to be harder than the level 10-49 bracket. Especially now, as really only the people who have put time into the game are level 50 with battlemasters gear. Thus more time = relatively more skill. Doesn't mean they are good, just means they are better than they were in the 10-49 bracket.

 

Third, The feeling of unfairness as a new level 50 is mostly compounded by the path to get there. Meaning, right before you hit 50, you are in the 40s, which is the very top of the 10-49 bracket. You will be owning up shop so hard as a level 49 in the 10-49 bracket as you have HUGE advantages over everyone else. Once you ding 50 though, all this advantages go away AND you are put at a disadvantage of gear. This huge change of perspective makes it seems much much worse than it is. Again, not to say it's fair, but the switch from amazing to newb compounds the unfairness feeling.

 

Tl;DR Can't really summarize, if you didn't read it, dont' comment on it. Don't make this thread into somethin it's not.

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Everyone likes to talk about the fresh 50, but what about his 7 other teammates? Chances are they're going to have expertise as well. So while the new comer may not be able to enter hero mode, it's still an objective based warzone system and not TDM.

 

No one is getting screwed over. People are getting rewarded for putting in the time. If you only have 2 hours a day to play, you'll get rewarded too. It will just take longer.

 

Agreed. They just need rated arenas to come out for people who have a lot of free time.

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Honestly, MAYBE they need a bracket for 10-19, just a very LARGE maybe as queues could wreck it, but once you hit 20, while 49s have some of an edge, the bolster actually does enough where you have a very good chance. The gap definitely becomes less then what it is between a new 50 and someone with full Champion.
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50's WZ suck. I am having so much more fun now that I rerolled and the pops are instant. I was waiting and waiting for matches a few days ago before I started my new toon. It seems like a lot of people share the same philosophy since the 10 - 49 is bumpin and 50 pops about twice an hour.

 

The gear gap is just too much. It is sad people try to justify it. And to them I say "enjoy Huttball".

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People who say 10-49 is fair are just terrible.

 

At 49 you should have your full set of skills + skill modifiers + skill bonuses. For instance a level 49 Sorcerer has Creeping Terror, Death Mark, Madness, Damage boosts on skills, Thundering Blast, Instant Whirlwind, etc. When you use a sorcerer effectively you absolutely NEED these skills and modifiers to existing skills.

 

Same pretty much goes with all other classes.

 

 

If you're loosing to lower leveled characters who don't have these skills then you are just horrible at playing your class. No If's ands or buts, you just suck.

 

 

While in the 50's bracket it is true there is a gear disparity, the biggest difference is the skill disparity. People in the 50's brackets have learned to Pop their relics, adrenals, etc. People in the 50's brackets have learned when to use their skills and what skills they need to use. People in the 50's understand their talent tree and can use it effectively.

 

 

The reason why fresh 50's get demolished is not souly because of gear. Its skill + gear.

 

 

 

For instance:

 

Most commonly fresh 50 sorcerers forget that they have Reckless, Relics and Adrenals. Popping all 3 then attacking a Battlemaster deals damage pretty much on par with centurion/champion gear. People who have been PvPing in the 50's bracket for awhile make use of these things.

 

Most commonly fresh 50 sorcerers forget they have the ability to bubble. I see many fresh 50's running around warzones without bubble when they arent statically discharged (bubble lockout time). Again, most sorcerers who have been PvPing in the 50's bracket for awhile never run around without bubble unless it broke.

 

Most commonly fresh 50's have no idea when to CC and when NOT to AOE and attack certain targets. On Alderaan you cannot hope to cap left/right if you dont chain CC the people comming off of speeders. Too many times have I seen the fresh 50 decide to attack the guy whose whirlwinded or blinded (break on damage).

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are some fresh 50's who are decent. But the majority of them are horrible with poor skills. The gear disparity doesn't matter if you don't know how to play your class.

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I find L50 WZs more fun, and more fair. They pop without problem in the evening, so there's no wait times.

 

 

L10-49 bracket pops instantly around the clock, but you will just lose all the games if you play Republic early in the day on my server. It isn't until the evening when the better Republic players start arriving. One sided faceroll, especially on the receiving end, isn't fun.

Edited by Youmu
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well i dont think any arguement about "gear" will be a big problem after 1.1.2

 

people dont realize it but T-1 pvp gear is not bad at all.

if people continue to play despite losing they will still get comms that they can then use to get bags which they get cent/champ coms to buy gear to better compete.

personally i made a few alts to check out the low level ques and honestly i find it pathetic.

its full of level 40+ imps playing ops/assassins or warriors and nothing but stealthing over to the lowest levels and killing them over and over and charging them as well.

thats not skill and makes me laugh at them. all of these people that seem to be scared to que in 50s pvp since they lose.

 

i also really like the comment about the 7 other teammates that some will be geared. that is usually 99% true.

i was unfortunate enough to have the complete opposite 1 game lol.

little info on me, im 600+ expertise with 5 BM pieces and rest full champ.

My brother just got his Sage to 50 so im queing with him to help him on his dailys.

I ended up in a game where literally i was the only one on my team with any expertise.

Whats really funny is that our opponents had only 1 undergeared person on their team but we still won. it was voidstar and they simply played well and kept them from planting the bomb.

 

its all about skill people. the 50s is full of people who generally know and realize that winning is more important than farming.

the bag system will be better soon so go ahead and level your 50s and get as many bags as you can. DONT OPEN THEM! simply hold onto them untill 1.1.2 and when it hits open them all and you should have at least 4-5 pieces of cent and likely at least 1 piece of champion gear.

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and you don't require a premade to be somewhat effective like the 50 brackets which 75% of the games are composed of at least one premade per side.

 

I PvP extensivley in the 50s bracket. I wouldnt put fighting a premade up nearly that high.. and im on the 2nd highest population PvP server (Port Nowhere). Maybe 25%, tops.

 

Also, and the main reason people don't want to join the 50 bracket, is because of the absolutely massive gear differences.

 

Fifth grade math and the ability to go to Knotor or Torhead and look at the gear stats would disprove your theory, but ranting is more fun. Carry on...

 

A fresh level 50 has no chance at all against a player in even full centurion gear (battlemaster geared players can literally solo three fresh 50's that have a mix of green scrub leveling gear).

 

Ahhh! We've struck on the problem.

 

"Fresh 50s in green and scrub gear".

 

No "Fresh 50" - not a single one, has ANY EXCUSE not to be in head-to-toe purple armoring/mod/enhancements/barrel/helt in every orange item they have (which should be everything except a belt and bracers). We just had a talk about this in ventrilo while trying to find a PuG healer for our NM ops (gearing up alts and late comers).. and one guy tried to get in wearing greens in six slots.

 

During the discussion, we realize that you have to DELIBERATELY SKIP CONTENT not to be able to get purples BEFORE you hit 50.

 

The Bonus Series on Belsavis is available at level 47 - and it leads you STRAIGHT into the daily quests there. They take about an hour a day, if you're a little slow at it, and net you: An orange companion weapon with level 50 mods in it; a rank 22 purple armoring of your choice; a rank 22 purple mod of your choice, and 16x Daily Commendations. Doing that every day from 47-50 will net you enough Armoring/Mods to flush out your oranges, and you can buy additional armoring/hilt/barrels with Daily Commendations (8 each). The only thing missing is level 50/rank 22 enhancements... but guess what!

 

When you finish your Class quest.. you get a quest to go to Illum, where you can net another 10x daily comendations (bonus for doing the quests the first time through), 8x daily commendations a day, and a rank 22 purple enhancement of your choice!

 

Total time invested: 30 minutes.

 

There is NO EXCUSE for even a fresh 50 not to have purple level 50 items in every slot except belt and bracers within 2 days of being 50. NOT ONE. And it isnt even like they have to "grind" to get this stuff - it's a little over an hour of easy-peasy daily quests. Thats it.

 

This leaves out earpieces & implants, of course, but you get about 200k a day from the daily quests, and BiS six-stat implants and earpieces (crafted) can be found on the GTN for the 40-100k range.

 

NO excuse not to be in full level 50/rank 22 purps (or Rating 124).

 

Centurion PvP gear is only rating 126 - and actually has so much primary stat loss (end/x stat) due to the expertise that its actually better to be daily equipped.

 

That combined with the fact that getting gear is 100% luck based and it could literally take weeks or months to even become competitive. I don't want to get farmed by terrible players that simply have a gear advantage over me for 1-2 months until i have comparable gear.

 

Hyperbole is cool, i hear. Game hasnt even been out for two months, and everyone i know who hit 50 early enough to have been PvPing for more than two weeks is in full Champion or damn close to it.

 

You're seriously the most ignorant poster i've ever seen.

 

Right back atcha!

Edited by Noctournys
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This needs it's own thread.

 

There are a lot of people on the forum screaming how the 10-49 bracket is fairer than the 50 bracket and they wish they could stop leveling due to the "unfairness" of the level 50 bracket.

 

I'm not claiming the level 50 bracket is fair, or the pvp system at level 50 in general is fair, but I want to clarify all the misconceptions going on.

 

The most imbalanced, unfair system in SWTOR is none other than....

 

...the 10-49 bracket for PvP. The level 50 bracket, where as "unfair" is tremendously better than the level 10-49 bracket.

 

A level 10 vs. a level 49 is just stupid. A level 49 has all of their abilities sans level 50 abilities, and all of the skill points sans 1. A level 10 has 1 skill point, and a few abilities. No level 10 has their "key ability" that define's their class and makes them "uber" either. For example, a Level 10 Jedi Shadow...cannot even cloak.

 

So many people cry "I want to stay in the 10-49 bracket cause it's fair". You sir are the biggest hypocrite in the world and should not be allowed to play said games. You truly just want to be able to pwn up on level 10s as a level 40 something with the insane advantage you have over others.

 

Now if just the skill point and abilities differences weren't enough, guess what. The 10-49 bracket has huge gear disparities as well.

 

Relics and gear: Level 10s can't get relics. Also the buff they give you doesn't "bolster" as well. Pretty much bolster only does your endurance and main dmg/healing stat. If you gear benefits from crit rating and such, bolster doesn't do anything about it to make it "fair. Starting at ~level 40, your gear starts to out do the bolster effect.

 

Expertise: Guess what, expertise doesn't start at 50. At level 40 I was able to get about ~80 expertise by swapping out weapon expertise enhancements to put in my orange gear. It works out pretty well if you buy a weapon for your companion and swap out hte expertise, you can then put the expertise on your armor. A level 10 can't get expertise.

 

So lets talk about fair. A level 10 can't do anything except level up to close the gap, all while getting creamed in PvP.

 

So what's more fair. A level 50 w/ battlemasters vs a level 50 without battlemasters, or a level 10 with 2 abilities and 1 skill poitn vs a level 49 with all their abilities and all their skill points (Sans 1)?

 

Which is easier to close the gap?

Getting PvP Gear at level 50 or leveling up to level 49?

 

tl;dr

The level 50 PvP may be broken, but don't you dare say "10-49 bracket is more fair."

 

Agreed.

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You can always compete in either bracket if you arent bad. It gets a little easier mid 20s in the lower bracket and once you get a decent amount of expertise in the higher tier. This is something people just need to expect.

 

The biggest difference you really need to consider is how competitive each of the enviroments are. In the 50s bracket you have a lot of people queueing up with the most competitive group they can field comp wise, gear wise and skill wise. That doesnt happen as much in the lower bracket.

 

Its much easier to have a big impact as an individual in the lower bracket, regardless of your level. Everything else being equal a higher level should win a fight against a lower level of course, but that almost never happens.

 

The level difference gives an advantage to the higher level player, but its not anything that is insurmountable by a good player. I can understand a bad player being upset about how unfair it is, but maybe they should work on being a better player instead of complaining about how unfair the brackets are.

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I love how most people on forums assumes everyone that disagrees with their opinions is somehow a bad player without taking the math into account. I really do. There really are some mathematical gaps in RPG that can't be closed unless your target is just LETTING you hit them and ignoring you, which really, the only skill in that is finding spots where you can escape some notice. Sometimes its not just a skill gap, and yet people want to say they are somehow more skilled when they are winning with better gear? Yeah, it doesn't work that way. The skill argument against this stuff just does not work. Ugh, I swear, if I had the time or desire, I'd PvP each and every level and check how bolster influenced my character compared to previous levels. People don't seem to notice that earlier levels get a bigger benefit from bolster that often pushes them above the higher levels by a slight bit and that's why lower levels stand a good chance even without all the skills.

 

A lot of these topics shouldn't even come up without people doing the math though. Like with expertise, there's some solid math behind it easily gotten to (though people left and right try to butcher it rather than work it out. Percentages don't add together evenly people!)

Edited by Kuari
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Please, try to understand that the real problem in not having more level brackets is due to the jedi knight/sith warrior class. This class has no CC at low levels, and if you have to face a char with healing (noone knows why the trooper/mercenary class is so imba), you simply cannot kill him. It is not a lack of skill. I play all the classes. In the case of the classes with no CC, it is simply more DIFFICULT. And "more difficult", simply, means NO BALANCE. So, to reach the balance, which is the aim of a mmorpg, something must change.

 

Of course, when a jedi knight/sith warrior class reach the CC skills, it becomes a way more balanced class.

 

I still remain of the opinion that level brackets like 10-19, 20-29, 30-39 and so forth, with the bolster to the last level (19, 29, 39...) is a better solution. Just the solution adopted by Age of Conan, for example, a mmorpg that has a 4 year experience.

 

I'd like to see also the "Sprint" skill at level 10, not 14, just to add even more balance to the level difference.

Edited by Forevernite
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My 3rd alt is level 14. I only do well when I'm playing bads and no one is attacking me. I'm playing a Vanguard but am acting like a Commando by trying to get into positions where I'm not as noticeable.

When I do get attacked, the fight is over very quickly if it is anyone level 35+ against me.

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I've been top of the damage boards with my merc since level 14 and I love pvp. I've faced off 1v1 many times with levels 30-40+ and have won quite a few times. I think it's way fun and I'm having a blast. It's pretty fair from my point of view at least!

 

From what I've heard from level 50 pvp - just take out expertise. Should solve most problems. I'll probably be flamed for this, lol, but I don't intend to visit this thread after this post. Have at it, trolls! :D

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The op is clueless as to how bolster works. A level 20 in same level purples will wipe the floor with a level 49 in poor gear or gear out leveled by several levels.

 

You certainly can swap in the minor bolster mods from weapons but this ONLY works at the level of the mod. Due to bolster that small amount of expertise will not offset how crappy that mod will be a few levels further against a same level purple mod.

 

Due to bolster a level 20 in same level purples is a beast, level 30 is a nightmare a level 49 is a god.

 

What makes 10-49 bracket more fair is that EVERYONE has access to such gear at ANY level within the bracket and the difference between someone in blues, a mix of purples or all purples is still less than the difference between new 50's in pve gear vs higher tier pvp players.

 

It is expertise that creates the barrier for entering level 50 pvp. A new player has ZERO mechanics to offset this. At least in pre-50 pvp they can tweak at any level including a level 10.

 

SUPER HIGH FIDELITY SECRET!: A low teen in purples bolsters more than any other level. You may be spamming 3 powers but you will hit like a Titan (bolster makes up for the fact they are missing slotted items at that level).

Edited by Tamanous
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The op is clueless as to how bolster works. A level 20 in purples will wipe the floor with a level 49 in poor gear.

 

You certainly can swap in the minor bolster mods from weapons but this ONLY works at the level of the mod. Due to bolster that small amount of expertise will not offset how crappy that mod will be a few levels further against a same level purple mod.

 

Due to bolster a level 20 in same level purples is a beast, level 30 is a nightmare a level 49 is a god.

 

What makes 10-49 bracket more fair is that EVERYONE has access to such gear at ANY level within the bracket and the difference between someone in blues, a mix of purples or all purples is still less than the difference between new 50's in pve gear vs higher tier pvp players.

 

It is expertise that creates the barrier for entering level 50 pvp. A new player has ZERO mechanics to offset this. At least in pre-50 pvp they can tweak at any level including a level 10.

 

SUPER HIGH FIDELITY SECRET!: A low teen in purples bolsters more than any other level. You may be spamming 3 powers but you will hit like a Titan (bolster makes up for the fact they are missing slotted items at that level).

 

U are then probably clueless about basic login and reading comprehension, i stopped reading after 2 lines.

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The op is clueless as to how bolster works. A level 20 in same level purples will wipe the floor with a level 49 in poor gear or gear out leveled by several levels.

 

You certainly can swap in the minor bolster mods from weapons but this ONLY works at the level of the mod. Due to bolster that small amount of expertise will not offset how crappy that mod will be a few levels further against a same level purple mod.

 

Due to bolster a level 20 in same level purples is a beast, level 30 is a nightmare a level 49 is a god.

 

What makes 10-49 bracket more fair is that EVERYONE has access to such gear at ANY level within the bracket and the difference between someone in blues, a mix of purples or all purples is still less than the difference between new 50's in pve gear vs higher tier pvp players.

 

It is expertise that creates the barrier for entering level 50 pvp. A new player has ZERO mechanics to offset this. At least in pre-50 pvp they can tweak at any level including a level 10.

 

SUPER HIGH FIDELITY SECRET!: A low teen in purples bolsters more than any other level. You may be spamming 3 powers but you will hit like a Titan (bolster makes up for the fact they are missing slotted items at that level).

 

SUPER HIGH FIDELITY SECRET!: Skills and Abilities >>>>>> Gear.

People are so blatently blind or ignorant it's amazing. Did you even read my post?

Let put it this way, as a 49 I could utterly destroy a level 10 with HALF of his health. If you gave me 6khp against level 10s I'd still utterly destroy them. I have so many more abilities and things to both survive, CC, dmg, etc. that the level 10 can't do anything regardless of stats.

 

Super FAIL!

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SUPER HIGH FIDELITY SECRET!: Skills and Abilities >>>>>> Gear.

People are so blatently blind or ignorant it's amazing. Did you even read my post?

Let put it this way, as a 49 I could utterly destroy a level 10 with HALF of his health. If you gave me 6khp against level 10s I'd still utterly destroy them. I have so many more abilities and things to both survive, CC, dmg, etc. that the level 10 can't do anything regardless of stats.

 

Super FAIL!

 

This is so true! I read a lot about bolster, bolster, so try to explain me WHY each time I face a high level char, he devastates me in 2 moves. And I never - never lose versus a low level char - it happened a couple of times in all the matches I've played.

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