I guess most people will have seen the proposed changes to relics post 1.3.

http://dulfy.net/2012/06/13/pts-1-3-update-1changes-to-relics-augment-kits-and-exotech-adrenals/

Am I wrong to think that these are BiS for some classes in PvE dps? e.g:

2x War Hero relic of boundless ages

41 endurance

57 expertise

113 power

plus add an augment for

18 power

12 endurance

Well they're definitely better than the Matrix Cubes.

It could be that the combination of proc-relic + WH Relic oBA will become BiS for a Sorc.

I guess most people will have seen the proposed changes to relics post 1.3.

http://dulfy.net/2012/06/13/pts-1-3-update-1changes-to-relics-augment-kits-and-exotech-adrenals/

 

Am I wrong to think that these are BiS for some classes in PvE dps? e.g:

 

2x War Hero relic of boundless ages

41 endurance

57 expertise

113 power

 

plus add an augment for

18 power

12 endurance

Yes they'll be BiS for most DPS ACs - from a damage perspective they're better than the Campaign dps relics (on use and proc ones). I will miss the extra 40 endurance on the Camp relics although the new aug slots will make up for that.

On a related note, I'd hope that BW make similar changes to the current Campaign relics as shelling out 200/400 daylies (I bought both dps relics due to the proc relic damaging the shield generator in Stormcaller + Firebrand encounter in EC) for those relics which are no longer BiS is seriously dry.

I'm not sure if having TWO WH relics is better than 1 WH relic + Campaign proc relic for certain DPS classes - in particular, Sages/Sorcs running full Balance/Madness.

TL;DR version:

2 WH power relics yield 78 kinetic damage, 48.26 internal damage in 4.5 seconds...for Balance Sages/Madness Sorcs

1 WH power relic + 1 Campaign internal proc relic yields 39 kinetic damage, 143.704 internal damage in 4.5 seconds...for Balance Sages/Madness Sorcs

The theory:

+113 Power = 26 bonus damage to all attacks.

Every below will take into account the 4.5 second time frame in between Campaign proc relic lockout durations.

So assuming all my dots are up in that 4.5 sec span of downtime for a Campaign proc relic, a WH relic would give me

+26 kinetic damage from 1 full TK Throw (3 sec channel, 4 ticks)

+13 kinetic damage from a half TK Throw (3 sec channel but only 1.5 will squeeze in the 4.5 sec timeframe, 2 ticks, so (26/4)*2)

+5.2 internal damage from 1 Weaken Mind tick (I believe Weaken Mind ticks once every 3 sec, so an 15 second WM means 5 ticks, so divide 26 by 6)

+4.3 internal damage from 1 Sever Force tick (6 ticks)

+14.63 internal damage from 4 Mind Crush ticks

So 39 kinetic damage and 24.13 internal damage in total from one Warhero Relic power bonus in a 4.5 second span. Double these numbers if you wear two Warhero Relics (78, 48.26)

Meanwhile, wearing one WH relic and one Campaign proc relic (let's choose the internal damage one for demonstrative purposes) will net you:

39 kinetic damage and 24.13 internal damage every 4.5 seconds, plus a 30% chance to deal an additional 184 internal damage to target on damaging attack, which can only occur once every 4.5sec.

Now TK Throw hits once every second (0sec, 1s, 2s, 3s). Mind Crush ticks/hits every second. So for a Sage, every second you get at least 2 damaging attacks in.

Weaken Mind and Sever Force are usually casted back to back, so factoring the GCD the two of them tick 1.5 sec apart. If we assume that Sever Force will tick at 0sec of the 4.5 sec duration, that means Weaken Mind will tick at 1.5sec. Fast forward a little bit, and Sever Force will also tick again at the 9sec mark.

This means that under a hypothetical and ideal situation, at the beginning of every 4.5 time period, at the 0sec mark I get three damaging attacks. At 30% to proc per damaging attack, the likelihood of at least one triggering the proc relic at 0sec is (1 - 0.343 = 65.7%). By the 1.5 sec mark I get another 3 damaging attacks in. The odds are decent that the proc relic will fire every 4.5 sec (65.7%), and very good that it will fire off at least every 6 sec (88.2%). In any case, if the Campaign relic has a 65.7% chance to fire every 4.5 seconds, I believe we can deduce that it will deal 65.7% of it's total damage every 4.5 seconds on average, so 119.574 internal every 4.5 sec (can some hotshot mathematician confirm if these arguments are valid?).

So the 1 Campaign proc relic + 1 WH power relic combo yields, in 4.5 seconds:

39 kinetic damage, 24.13 internal damage + 119.574 internal damage, so

39 kinetic damage, 143.704 internal damage

While 2 WH power relics yield in 4.5 seconds

78 kinetic damage, 48.26 internal damage

So the difference is -39 kinetic damage, but also almost +100 internal damage (and we all know that internal damage is subject to far less damage reduction than kinetic, so I would say in general 1 pt of internal > 1 pt of kinetic).

So my rough and non-peer reviewed calcuations show that 1 WH power relic + 1 Campaign proc relic > 2 WH power relics for Sages/Sorcs running full Balance/Madness due to the high frequency of damaging attacks.

However, for slower-hitting classes like say, DPS Powertech or Marskman Sniper, 2 WH relics may be superior to mixing relics like I stated above. I know Watchman Sentinels/Vengeance Guardians have quite a few bleeds, so a combo might be better for them. Additional theorycrafting by these classes would be greatly appreciated. I also need someone to review my calcuations for Sages/Sorcs. Thanks.

makes the matrix cube useless

i hate how pvp'ers get everything handed to them for just pressing a button every 20 mins

Well they're definitely better than the Matrix Cubes.

Oof, yeah, pretty sure 113 power is better than 66 mainstat + 27 crit rating...113 defense or shield is DEFINITELY better for tanking than 59 mainstat + 21 defense. Hopefully BW realizes this and weights the PVP relics more towards Expertise or something, because.... yeesh.

Guess I need to resume grinding out WZs on my PVE characters.

edit: actually, even the Champion relics are an upgrade over the Matrix Cube. :/

makes the matrix cube useless

 

i hate how pvp'ers get everything handed to them for just pressing a button every 20 mins

Source for the matrix cubes being useless? i heard they're getting a buff.

If the WH relics are getting changed you can bet your bottom dollar that the pve ones are probably getting changed aswell. If not someone will ahve to do the math on the "clickies" to see whether or not theyre worth the effort.

Just incase ill just go click my button every 20 mins till we get a definitive answer.

Source for the matrix cubes being useless? i heard they're getting a buff.

 

If the WH relics are getting changed you can bet your bottom dollar that the pve ones are probably getting changed aswell. If not someone will ahve to do the math on the "clickies" to see whether or not theyre worth the effort.

 

Just incase ill just go click my button every 20 mins till we get a definitive answer.

The upgraded Willpower-Matrix Cube looks like this:

56 End

66 WP

27 Crit

Old MC:

50 End

58 WP

24 Crit

I guess most people will have seen the proposed changes to relics post 1.3.

http://dulfy.net/2012/06/13/pts-1-3-update-1changes-to-relics-augment-kits-and-exotech-adrenals/

 

Am I wrong to think that these are BiS for some classes in PvE dps? e.g:

 

2x War Hero relic of boundless ages

41 endurance

57 expertise

113 power

 

plus add an augment for

18 power

12 endurance

Yes I'll be using two of these.

On a side note, Main Stat Augments > Power Augments.

 

So my rough and non-peer reviewed calcuations show that 1 WH power relic + 1 Campaign proc relic > 2 WH power relics for Sages/Sorcs running full Balance/Madness due to the high frequency of damaging attacks.

 

It is something to test by 20 sec and then 5 min of each on an Ops training dummy when the patch 1.3 goes live. The two WH relics may give Balance/Madness Sage/Sorc better burst over the 20 sec, while the one WH and one campaign proc relics may work out better for sustained dps over longer encounters.

On a side note, Main Stat Augments > Power Augments.

How do you figure? Even with buffs/talents Power is going to give you more bonus damage/healing per point than Willpower, and if you've got enough crit the contribution is miniscule anyway.

How do you figure? Even with buffs/talents Power is going to give you more bonus damage/healing per point than Willpower, and if you've got enough crit the contribution is miniscule anyway.

Indeed - main stat is good up to a point but after that you start hitting the DR cap on crit and the power gain is minimal. You are much better off using + power augments rather than mainstat ones once you reach ~1700 unbuffed on your mainstat.

I don't have the math on hand and can't find the post where someone laid it out in detail.

In short the 11% boost raid buffed you gain from Willpower makes 1 point of Willpower something like .10 less than the amount of bonus damage you get from Power. So that + the little crit you get is better.

at a 1:1 ratio willpower > power. Willpower augments are therefore BiS.

Again I can't find the post where someone beautifully laid out all the math. But if its in-depth math you need to confirm this for you, I'm sure Daellia on the Sorc forums will be more than happy to oblige.

Again I can't find the post where someone beautifully laid out all the math. But if its in-depth math you need to confirm this for you, I'm sure Daellia on the Sorc forums will be more than happy to oblige.

No, it makes sense. Power is only something like 3.6% higher in bonus damage than Willpower, so I could see the crit contribution outweighing it.

I'd wonder whether it holds for healing though, since the difference between Power and Willpower is greater there.

No, it makes sense. Power is only something like 3.6% higher in bonus damage than Willpower, so I could see the crit contribution outweighing it.

 

I'd wonder whether it holds for healing though, since the difference between Power and Willpower is greater there.

Not a clue. I don't heal much on my Sorc. All I know is all of our healers don't even bother using 1 point of crit rating and prefer power.

I would *guess* main stats are still more powerful, but again - just speculation on my part.

Indeed - main stat is good up to a point but after that you start hitting the DR cap on crit and the power gain is minimal. You are much better off using + power augments rather than mainstat ones once you reach ~1700 unbuffed on your mainstat.

Okay, let's put this debate to rest.

Your post is largely false. Main stat has almost no diminishing returns when it comes to modifying your crit. (graph here). Damage scales linearly with both main stat and power/

Now, as far as raw damage goes:

Main Stat provides .20 points of damage per point of main stat. Power provides .23 damage per point of power.

On a purple 22 augment, you'll get 3.6 points of damage using main stat and 4.14 points of damage using power.

Over a full set of gear's worth of augments, main stat will get you 50.4 damage, while power adds 57.96 damage.

Crit wise, it's ~1.25% across a full set of mainstat augments without factoring in class buffs. So it's essentially a choice between 1.25% crit and ~7 damage. Now, that 7 extra damage is about a 13% gain.

If you're one of those people that likes to balance crit and power, then main stat augments are probably better, hands down. If you're one of those people who couldn't care less about crit and just wants all the power they can possibly stack, then the 7 damage is probably marginally better. But the difference is so miniscule that it's not really worth debating.

Now, me for example: My goal is to keep my buffed crit rate at ~40%, and then stack power beyond that. In my case, the main stat augment is most definitely a better idea. Why? because that 1.25% of crit that is immune to diminishing returns is equivalent to ~40 crit rating (eyeballing on this one), and my crit rating at this point is already well into diminishing returns. So swapping that 40 points of crit rating somewhere else on my gear for 40 points of power is going to net me a gain of 9.2 points of damage, which is ever so slightly better.

TL;DR: The distinction is so miniscule as to not even really be worth debating. For people who only care about raw damage at the complete expense of crit chance, power is barely better. For people who care about balancing their crit along with their power, main stat is better.

EDIT: Just did the math attempting to factor in class buffs.

If you DO factor in class buffs:

Main stat: 252 +5% from SI buff = 265. 265*.20= 53 points of damage. Factoring in the 5% damage bonus from the SW buff, that comes out to 55.65 bonus damage. Crit increase also goes up from 1.25% to ~1.29%.

Power: 252*.23= 57.96 points of damage. Factoring in the 5% bonus from the SW buff, it comes out to 60.86, which is an even narrower advantage, around 9%.

Also keep in mind that if your chosen advanced class has a talent that adds a certain percentage of main stat, that will narrow the gap even further, since it would further increase the yield of the main stat augments without affecting the boost from power. One of my agent friends with the Imperial Education talent came out with only 2 less healing total from main stat compared to crit. At that point, main stat is definitely better.

I'd wonder whether it holds for healing though, since the difference between Power and Willpower is greater there.

This is also false. It's a 3% difference per point in both damage and healing.

Damage: Willpower is .20 damage per point, power is .23.

Healing: Willpower is .14 damage per point, power is .17.

Healing-wise, willpower probably looks even better in comparison.

This is also false. It's a 3% difference per point in both damage and healing.

Damage: Willpower is .20 damage per point, power is .23.

Healing: Willpower is .14 damage per point, power is .17.

 

Healing-wise, willpower probably looks even better in comparison.

Check your math. With buffs/talents:

Damage: Willpower is 0.222 per point, Power is 0.23 (power adds 0.008 more bonus damage)

Healing: Willpower is 0.1554, Power is 0.17 (power adds 0.0146 more bonus damage)

Check your math. With buffs/talents:

 

Damage: Willpower is 0.222 per point, Power is 0.23 (power adds 0.008 more bonus damage)

Healing: Willpower is 0.1554, Power is 0.17 (power adds 0.0146 more bonus damage)

My math is correct before factoring in buffs. Also, you forgot to factor in buffs for your power number.

Damage:

Willpower: Unbuffed .20/point, buffed (factoring in the SI and SW buffs) = .20*1.10= 0.22/point

Power: Unbuffed .23/point, buffed (factoring only SW buff)= .23*1.05= .24/point

Healing:

Willpower = .14*1.10= .15/point

Power = .17*1.05= .18/point

All my numbers were rounded to the hundreths place.

Regardless, my math in my larger post above is correct, and takes all of this into account in terms of total numbers.

Although if your point was just that the gap is slightly bigger in healing, then I concede that it is after buffs. Still a pretty miniscule difference though.

Although if your point was just that the gap is slightly bigger in healing, then I concede that it is after buffs. Still a pretty miniscule difference though.

Basically, yes.

Fair point on the Warrior buff though; I didn't think about that.

Basically, yes.

 

Fair point on the Warrior buff though; I didn't think about that.

Factoring the warrior buff only further proved your point, so yeah

For the record, the totals of a full set of augments in terms of healing:

Willpower = 35.28 bonus healing unbuffed, 38.90 buffed

Power = 42.84 bonus healing unbuffed, 44.98 buffed

18% difference unbuffed, 14% difference buffed

So you are right, the gap is larger for healing (18% and 14% for healing vs. 13% and 9% for damage). I'm not a healer, so I don't really have an opinion on whether that's worth it or not (though I still think I'd trend towards no unless you're completely ignoring crit). Definitely a bit more debatable though.

So you are right, the gap is larger for healing (18% and 14% for healing vs. 13% and 9% for damage). I'm not a healer, so I don't really have an opinion on whether that's worth it or not (though I still think I'd trend towards no unless you're completely ignoring crit). Definitely a bit more debatable though.

Well, based on my spreadsheet calculations, at endgame gear levels going with Power augments over Willpower yields a slightly higher HPS increase. I'd have to check things through thoroughly before I stood by that though.

Well, based on my spreadsheet calculations, at endgame gear levels going with Power augments over Willpower yields a slightly higher HPS increase. I'd have to check things through thoroughly before I stood by that though.

I'm assuming you're a sorcerer since you used willpower as an example main stat

If I'm correct, are you taking the Will of the Sith talent in madness? That would change the main stat calcs just a tad.

Full set of augments = 252 willpower. Factoring in the SI buff and WotS, that would be increased by 11%, so 279.72, rounded to 280. That equates to 39.2 bonus healing, which increases to 41.16 once you factor in the SW buff. Power is still 42.84 before buffs, 44.98 after.

So in your case, you'd be looking at a difference of slightly less that 4 bonus healing across the whole set, which is ~9%. So really it just depends on how much you value crit. 1.29% crit vs. 4 bonus healing.

I'm assuming you're a sorcerer since you used willpower as an example main stat

 

If I'm correct, are you taking the Will of the Sith talent in madness?

Yeah, Sage healer.

-Edit: and you're correct. Finally found the problem in my calculations.-

I knew there was a math junkie around here somewhere to help my case.

DPS and Main Stat augments FTW