I'm a returning player. Played for awhile when the game first came out but didn't stick. Came back for a couple weeks when 12xp was offered the first time. Now I'm back for the third time and I finally have a couple of characters nearing max level.

Most of the people on this forum seem to be long term vets so you all most likely just accept the game's structural flaws at this point. But from the perspective of a new player the most shocking thing to me is how much the game provides you the illusion of choice without providing real choice.

You can go full dark in your choices or go full light and it doesn't matter in any large sense. The story will take you to the same chapter endings no matter what you select.

If I'm a Bounty Hunter I am forced to take the same exact five companions as every other BH. Doesn't matter if I hate a companion, doesn't matter what conversation choices I make - I have to let him on my ship. I remember the old Baldur's Gate games where you could tell a companion to piss off and build your group out of the companions you want.

So now we come to KotFE. Will we have real choice or just more illusion of choice?

Are they going to purge our existing companions and then put us in a new story on rails that gives us five new companions without any choice again? All the talk about seeing old companions sounds like it's off in the future in the chapters that will be released next year.

And what about choice in the storyline. Will we make decisions that actually affect our story beyond minor branches that weave back to the same path? Meaningful choice does not consist of choosing different conversational options, seeing different reactions and then getting different little followup stories in the mail. If the main story of kotfe does not have at least two possible endings or multiple side branches that lead to real change then it's just more illusion of choice.

there will be essentially two "stories" KotFE and NOT KotFE anything that happens in KotFE stays in KotFE. Everything else will remain mostly the same (minor tweaks such as companions use etc, stat, gear etc.)

the current <60 content is not changing that drastically so will still be all the same. KotFE will be significantly different as far as what we are used to.

how exactly this plays out we don't know for sure as of yet. But the expectation is that your current crew will still be there (you never LOSE anything) but during 4.0 story you can gain new and different companions for different reasons related to the story. but outside of that, you still have the same people.

my understanding anyway.

Unknown, but historically when BioWare has said things like, "meaningful actions", "impactful decisions", or "choices that matter" what they invariably have meant is "you get one slightly different dialogue and maybe a different color overlay for a cutscene." BioWare has been like this going back to Baldur's Gate. I'm betting that KotFE will be more Illusion then Choice. That is the BioWare way.

BioWare doesn't do branching storylines. They herd you to a single cutscene while making it look like your decisions led you there.

Granted there is only so much that can be done with an MMO, but BioWare has never understood that branching stories are more suited to an RPG than linear ones are.

BioWare doesn't do branching storylines. They herd you to a single cutscene while making it look like you your decisions led you there.

That's discouraging. I was thinking of trying the famous old Bioware single-player games like Dragon Age and Mass Effect. But if they follow the same philosophy and just herd you along a pre-set path to a pre-set destination while allowing you an illusion of choice then I guess I won't bother.

I guess I'm too old school, but I like to create my character how I like, learn the abilities I like, build my own story by my actions, pick the companions I like and play in a complex world where I have a lot of freedom to be what I want. But it seems that few if any modern games follow this philosophy.

You can go full dark in your choices or go full light and it doesn't matter in any large sense. The story will take you to the same chapter endings no matter what you select.

Ehhh.... hmm..... I wanna say thats not true for the agent storyline. It technically has 4 endings iirc.

as for KOTFE? time will tell

That's discouraging. I was thinking of trying the famous old Bioware single-player games like Dragon Age and Mass Effect. But if they follow the same philosophy and just herd you along a pre-set path to a pre-set destination while allowing you an illusion of choice then I guess I won't bother.

The original Mass Effect and Dragon Age were as good as BioWare storytelling ever got, but for ME all paths still lead to Ilos. At least in DA:Origins you have more than one way to kill the Archdemon and more than one possible ending cutscene (still linear, but better storytelling than pretty much any other BW game). The quality of storytelling for BioWare games has been in decline ever since these two were released.

I'd say face value, you're totally right about the illusion.

From experience, the specific actions your character makes after LS/DS decisions are very different. That being said, outside of pulling your heart-strings, does it affect your confrontation with the big-baddy if you killed a family on a backwater planet? Not at all.

More-or-less your character has a "destiny" to fulfill, what you do before that point is purely personal flavor.

Ehhh.... hmm..... I wanna say thats not true for the agent storyline. It technically has 4 endings iirc.

as for KOTFE? time will tell

4 agent endings maybe but you still end up on Ilum and RotHC and Oricon and SoR and Ziost being treated exactly the same regardless so not meaningful differences.

My guess is more illusion.

The fantasy of having your choices 'matter' is simply a logistical nightmare for them to design which is why it will not happen, you either accept this or you can complain about it, in the end you will get it the way it is no more no less.

Sure everyone ending up on their own separate leaf when they all started at the base of the tree would be great its just not practical.

anything that is programmed will always give you an illusion of choice. why? because like others have said - its a logistical nightmare trying to write a continuous cohesive story, all the while providing for variety of choices. ever wonder why ME3 in some ways is such a mess? its becasue in ME2 they gave people too many choices in who lives and who dies.... and wrote themselves into a narrative corner.

choices in these games are meant to give you flavor to your characters, who they are as individuals. if you want actual meaningful narrative changing choices? I'm afraid tabletop rpg's, the kind that only have few people playing through the module at a time and have a living breathing dungeon master? are your only option.

now. its still possibly to make stories feel like they have a variety by providing some interesting rp choices. and some of the stories in SWTOR manage to do that. problem is... becasue KOTFE is a single story (though in this case its not a narrative corner as much as just how work intensive it is to write individual stories that still converge into a cohesive whole) - we are most certainly going to have fewer character defining variations.

but in the end? we are all still ending up in the same spot. becasue overreaching narrative that needs to be written, programmed, cannot just be changed on a fly and is meant to be continuous.

There is not a game in existence where choice is NOT an illusion, it is simply not possible to make choice ACTUALLY matter in a game without other problems popping up.

tabletop there will still be problems, but they are easier to deal with as 1. fewer players 2. living breathing as you go story writer

4 agent endings maybe but you still end up on Ilum and RotHC and Oricon and SoR and Ziost being treated exactly the same regardless so not meaningful differences.

 

My guess is more illusion.

I hate to break to you but game design is illusion.

Eventhough I know the characters follow a certain set story I like how some choices actually affect the outcome.

I really look foward to the expansion

anything that is programmed will always give you an illusion of choice. why? because like others have said - its a logistical nightmare trying to write a continuous cohesive story, all the while providing for variety of choices. ever wonder why ME3 in some ways is such a mess? its becasue in ME2 they gave people too many choices in who lives and who dies.... and wrote themselves into a narrative corner.

 

choices in these games are meant to give you flavor to your characters, who they are as individuals. if you want actual meaningful narrative changing choices? I'm afraid tabletop rpg's, the kind that only have few people playing through the module at a time and have a living breathing dungeon master? are your only option.

 

now. its still possibly to make stories feel like they have a variety by providing some interesting rp choices. and some of the stories in SWTOR manage to do that. problem is... becasue KOTFE is a single story (though in this case its not a narrative corner as much as just how work intensive it is to write individual stories that still converge into a cohesive whole) - we are most certainly going to have fewer character defining variations.

 

but in the end? we are all still ending up in the same spot. becasue overreaching narrative that needs to be written, programmed, cannot just be changed on a fly and is meant to be continuous.

Exactly! You saved me the trouble of typing all of this out myself.

Only try to realize the truth.

There is no spoon.

Like all games the only meaningful choice is whether you play it or not.

SWTOR, and I expect KOTFE to be along the same lines, is more like a slightly interactive film where I get to choose the tone rather than the direction. There are some minor deviations but on the whole the big plot points are going to be the same for everyone.

Only try to realize the truth.

 

There is no spoon.

I guess I can accept that, in an MMO at least, all story choice has to lead to some kind of common final ground.

But it would be possible to give you more meaningful choice along the way. For instance why not have you meet a dozen potential companions along the way and have some choice over which ones become your followers? Maybe some would turn you down because your alignment does not suit them. Why am I stuck with people in my crew that I despise?

Or your dark side / light side status could actually affect gameplay. There could be NPCs that won't talk to you or will fight you. Or certain quests you can or can't do. Maybe if your Jedi went full dark he could flip to Sith and vice versa. There are tons of possibilities.

There are a multitude of different aspects of the story that are meaningful beyond the common ending. In SWTOR not only are we on rails to a common destination, but the entire itinerary and entourage are predetermined.

I guess I can accept that, in an MMO at least, all story choice has to lead to some kind of common final ground.

 

But it would be possible to give you more meaningful choice along the way. For instance why not have you meet a dozen potential companions along the way and have some choice over which ones become your followers? Maybe some would turn you down because your alignment does not suit them. Why am I stuck with people in my crew that I despise?

There were many reasons given by the Devs over the companions. They wanted them to fit particular roles which gives them personality (wrong it just forces the player to spec a certain way), they initially (beta) allowed companions to be removed but people then realised they wanted them back, this is a compromise on just how overwhelmed you want customer service to be

Or your dark side / light side status could actually affect gameplay. There could be NPCs that won't talk to you or will fight you. Or certain quests you can or can't do. Maybe if your Jedi went full dark he could flip to Sith and vice versa. There are tons of possibilities.

LS/DS decisions affect combats throughout the game, it is unfortunately one of the more subtle things and you wouldn't necessarily catch it unless you play through twice on the same class just to see the changes. Quite a few of the decisions involve taking a slight detour, or killing a few more mobs (or not for LS).

There are a multitude of different aspects of the story that are meaningful beyond the common ending. In SWTOR not only are we on rails to a common destination, but the entire itinerary and entourage are predetermined.

But the player gets to choose what they wear

I guess I can accept that, in an MMO at least, all story choice has to lead to some kind of common final ground.

 

But it would be possible to give you more meaningful choice along the way. For instance why not have you meet a dozen potential companions along the way and have some choice over which ones become your followers? Maybe some would turn you down because your alignment does not suit them. Why am I stuck with people in my crew that I despise?

 

Or your dark side / light side status could actually affect gameplay. There could be NPCs that won't talk to you or will fight you. Or certain quests you can or can't do. Maybe if your Jedi went full dark he could flip to Sith and vice versa. There are tons of possibilities.

 

There are a multitude of different aspects of the story that are meaningful beyond the common ending. In SWTOR not only are we on rails to a common destination, but the entire itinerary and entourage are predetermined.

in theory - its what they are going for in KOTFE. you might be able to recruit certain companions while others will leave you if they disagree with your choices, etc etc.

however, from what I'm reading so far - reality is that we are getting vastly shrunk down pool of recruit-able companions. you'll still have so choices to make (and apparently, you'll be able to cause companion death), but it won't be choosing out of 40 possible companions. hell, at this point I'll be impressed if they manage to squeeze 20 in there.

as for why those companions are non optional for individual class stories? that would be becasue they fit into those stories in a very specific way and personal stories need them along in order to work.

if you ever played bioware single player games, like... for example dragon age origins. Morrigan and Alistair are mandatory companions because of how they fit into the overreaching story.

Star Fox 64 gave you more choice. Imagine if after each planet you had to choose where to go next, and you couldn't backtrack? Start Tattooine. Then you can go Hoth, Balmorra, or Voss. You choose Hoth. That character can never experience the storyline on Balmorra or Voss, he must keep moving forward. Sure you could still GO to those planet and do sidequest or dailies, but you would not have access to the main storyline that was going to take place there if you had chosen to go there instead of Hoth.

And it continues to branch from there until it leads back to the final confrontation on Alderaan or wherever.

THAT would have a ton of replay value. Sure it all ends up in the same place, but the journey is completely different each playthrough.