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Please remove veterans edge from HM (and SM)


AwesomeTacoCat's Avatar


AwesomeTacoCat
05.09.2020 , 10:24 AM | #11
This is an absolutely terrible idea. The game already has so few players doing nightmare content. Why should we be trying to make content that was released nearly a decade ago harder? Right now, we need note accessible content not more content that only 0.1% of players can do.

juliushorst's Avatar


juliushorst
05.12.2020 , 09:28 AM | #12
Absolutely against this, this would kill any PUG ops. Even with VE you can get yourself into a PUG group capable of wiping in KP SM.
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LD_Little_Dragon's Avatar


LD_Little_Dragon
05.12.2020 , 12:00 PM | #13
I"m against this. The NiM type raiders are all looking at this from the perspective of players who run with the top performing specs (in most cases) and have done the ops multiple times and therefore know the mechanics and timing by heart.

I realize it's hard to understand, but not everyone is part of the top 2% of players. While NiM is tuned for your ability levels, HM, and most especially SM, are not.

I'm speaking as someone who needs that gear advantage. Computer and physical limitations mean I will never be able to have the APMs needed to be at a NiM level of raiding. Currently I perform well enough to do HM, but that's with fully optimized top-tier gear. Take that away and I won't get better, I'll just stop raiding.

Want a challenge? Try using underperforming specs, with sub-optimal gear. Raid with a group where you are the only one who's done the HM fight before. You can even put 270 mods into your set bonus gear and remove those veteran's edge stacks yourself.
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Rion_Starkiller's Avatar


Rion_Starkiller
05.12.2020 , 12:33 PM | #14
IDK if it's the VE stacks per se, but there are no dps checks in HM right now. Faceroll
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juliushorst's Avatar


juliushorst
05.12.2020 , 09:43 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Rion_Starkiller View Post
IDK if it's the VE stacks per se, but there are no dps checks in HM right now. Faceroll
We did SnV HM \ Vet recently with very mixed group (some people with little experience in raiding) and Styrak did enrage.
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LD_Little_Dragon's Avatar


LD_Little_Dragon
05.12.2020 , 10:40 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by juliushorst View Post
We did SnV HM \ Vet recently with very mixed group (some people with little experience in raiding) and Styrak did enrage.
Not just styrak, I've seen plenty of enrages in HM. Even KP/EV bosses will engrage.

Some players can pull off 12k dps or more in raids, but only elitists think thats what the raids should be tuned for. When they say they've pugged the harder OPs, what they mean is they got a group of experienced HM/NiM raiders together instead of running with an actual prog team.
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Townowi's Avatar


Townowi
05.12.2020 , 10:40 PM | #17
One would think that some of those NiM-level players that make those posts are so used to play with their guilds that they are, to an extent, sheltered from the rest of the player base.

Quote: Originally Posted by juliushorst View Post
Absolutely against this, this would kill any PUG ops. Even with VE you can get yourself into a PUG group capable of wiping in KP SM.
Now, I get that the pug crowd is all over the place, skill-wise, and wiping on KP SM can and does happen (probably not too often), but I have to ask the following questions:

1) How many of the pugs, in your last wipe, were undergeared (and therefore didn't have the full set of VE stacks), or underleveled?

2) How many of the players were new/returning players?

If your last wipe happened during double XP, then it's entirely possible several players were learning their specs and running it with specs they aren't yet comfortable playing.
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Sandrosw's Avatar


Sandrosw
05.13.2020 , 02:14 AM | #18
From nim raider perspective - he HM opses no longer prepare you for nim raiding. The gap between HM and nim is 10x wider than between SM and HM, you might not believe it but it is this way currently and it also makes it almost impossible for vet teams to transition into nim raiding. So anytime a person leaves a team (often for rl reasons, like new job, a baby born or such) the team must look for a replacement and it is no longer enough to take a person who has run the opses on HM for trial. People who now run hm opses with half decent team will be able to skip many mechanics or just heal through mistakes due to the +30% bonus dps, healing and health on everyone. So they will not even learn HM mechanics correctly anymore, and when HMs feel easy and group tries the nim, there is a rather huge cultural shock of wiping on first boss for several hours without bringing it below 50%, dps being moderate instead of good, healing being not enough, tanks not being able to use dcds in correct order and time...
So for nim raiders, it makes sense to make hard mode hard, so the transition from HM to nim is smoother and people learn and "git gud" in the middle tier of operations.

From SM/HM player perspective - once you learn how to use at least a simple rotation or skill priority and get some higher tier of gear, the story mode pose no challenge at all (apart from pugs, those can turn any operation into impossible super nightmare horror show). Hard modes offer a bit more challenge where a healer actually needs to heal at least half of the time and sometimes cleanse people, tank should be actually keeping the aggro of boss and dpses must bring at least average dps with a rotation. There are new and fun mechanic that keep people engaged and the fight makes more sense with them (good example is DP last boss fight phase with Styrak and Brontes - on SM you just dps them down, on HM you need to take their Dread Holocrons and Brontes will have a mechanic that she will start a lightning beam clock phase similar to DF phase with lightning and droids, on Nim all of the above but Brontes will also pop reaches every 2 seconds - same reaches you run from in DF - the fight mechanic is complete there).
So for HM raiders that are an average tier of players (which means no offense, not everyone has super fast reflexes, some people have disabilities or carpal tunnel syndrome, some have bad internet and to high ping, some just do not want to invest too much time in researching the game intricacies on internet and play for fun) - which is actually a very large part of the HM raiding community - making HMs harder would not be enjoyable change, and probably will make some of them not able to enjoy those fight any longer.

There is no way to please both crowds. The only way I can imagine is making it possible to choose if the HM ops should have stacks or not (or maybe make it some new mode of difficulty between current veteran and current master mode, maybe call it an expert mode) so there will be again only HM mechanics, but also no stacks to carry dps/hps/health so the dps/healing checks will be present again, and once a HM team is confident enough they can do the expert mode which would bring no change in mechanics but more focus on correct dcd usage, haling and dps checks, and after mastering this mode they could be ready to tackle nightmare mode. However that would need probably lot of development time, so I doubt there will be anything like this implemented, so we will be stuck with stacks in HM and almost no way to progress to nim raiding.
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RikuvonDrake
05.13.2020 , 05:08 AM | #19
keep stacks and make the mechanics more punishing if ignored

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Townowi's Avatar


Townowi
05.13.2020 , 07:51 AM | #20
The obvious fix, to be implemented as part of re-tuning HM ops (and SM as well) to 75 is actually difficult to implement, given that it took several months to re-tune uprisings to lv75 (and even then we're not sure that's even intended for that to be re-tuned), and we are still waiting on them to re-tune the remaining group content.
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