i have to say this whole thread is kindof funny. i skip as many trash mobs and bosses as i can. gear from flashpoint is ok but its easy to skip whole tiers at the end game. my last alt went from full recruit to rakata+ in 4 days barely touching columi gear and thats kindof slow. in full recruit gear i tanked ec sm...

Yeah sure, but imagine there sometimes are new players with their first 50 and they may not be able to avoid Columi by being babysitted by their guild, especially if they haven't got one yet.

I'm Dread Guard geared myself and never mind to help fresh 50s to get their chances for better gear by killing bosses I could skip, even if it cost me... a few minutes!

What is wrong with gear progression in my opinion is The Rain of Black Hole Coms Falling Down Everywhere made for noobs which weren't able to do ECHM in Rakata gear. Don't get me wrong, not the BH coms itself but allowing to get them so easy way. Operation level gear should be for people who do operations... what else it can be used for?

People farm Black Hole (even Campaign nowadays) set just by doing daily HM flashpoint and then they think they're better then the fresh ppl just because of it. And then they cry and ask for nerfs (or better rewards ...lol, seriously? oO) on the forums because they cannot do LIHM without BH gear.

Summary, I don't get it why you want to remove Columi and Rakata from gear progression (Tionese is removed already). Do you really like 2 Tiers of PvE gear in the game?

In terms of learning ones job, you should know the basics by the time you reach end game already. In terms of tactics doing a simple straight tank fight on a mid boss is not really going to teach you any tricks beyond what you likely already know.. It is the end bosses and the like who have the more advanced strategies that, at least in my personal experience, prove to be the greater tactical primers. These end bosses though are just that, primers to prepare one for the rigors of Operations where tactics, focus, and team work can make or break a run. While I can admit some mid bosses such as the HK fights on Hard Mode or Jindo can help teach how to watch for patterns, or even how the Trandoshan on FE can help teach how pulling to the proper location can make a huge difference... I would also be forced to point out that these are not bosses you generally see skipped.

Great post Dampylle. If I may though, I would like to comment on the part I quoted from your post.

I find that the fights that are the "greater tactical primers" that force players to think and react are actually the "bonus boss" fights in the Hard mode FPs. Those are the ones that teach you to pay attention and prepare you for what will come. They are also the ones that most groups avoid.

Sith Entity in False Emperor: boss disappears and 3 ghosts need to be tanked/interrupted/killed for boss to reappear.

Chief Engineer Kels in Boarding Party: kill the 2 droids while running towards the *one* reactor that is not overloading to avoid taking massive damage from the other 3 that are overloading.

Replicator in Directive 7: boss splits into 3, then each one splits into 4. Fun fight.

Guid Patriarch in Battle of ilum: never been able to do this! But watch the

etc, etc, etc...

You get to a point that it isn't about the gear but rather about the "experience" and what that "experience" can teach you. Unfortunately, I'm coming to the conclusion that most people don't want to "learn" they just want the gear.

Solution? No idea... maybe have the FP quest also reward (along with the Columi commendaion) a BH commendation if all "mandatory" bosses are dead and an "extra" BH commendation if the "optional" boss is also dead (i.e: 1 Columi and 2 BH commendations for a "full run")? Would that make people be more open to the idea of a "full run"? I don't know...

There has always been some kind of mobskipping in either small or large scale in flashpoints but the latest trend is simply wrong.

 

It seems that teams doing flashpoints skip some of the bosses and have no respect for the ones that are signing up to get better gear.

 

Please respect the players that join flashpoints with groupfinder to gear up, it is enough to wait for ages for them to pop.

 

Alternatively Bioware could make the flashpoint not complete unless all bosses are dead (the way it should be)

 

Thoughts?

 

Is it fair to ignore players in the team that needs gear and steamroll through the flashpoint not listening at all?

Wanna talk about gamebreaking behavior? How about people queuing up for HM FP's in GF? Lately there have been an influx of Level 50's with Sub 50 gear coming into Lost Island, which is a Tier 2 Flashpoint and should have a gear requirement. Another issue with GF involving LI is that it is allowing mixed DPS to queue. For the LR-5 droid fight, you need to have either both Ranged DPS or both Melee DPS. Having one of each will cause the team to wipe because there are two different sets of strategies based on the type of DPS you bring to the fight. I know some of you will disagree with me, and that's your viewpoint, but this is mine.

Great post Dampylle. If I may though, I would like to comment on the part I quoted from your post.

 

I find that the fights that are the "greater tactical primers" that force players to think and react are actually the "bonus boss" fights in the Hard mode FPs. Those are the ones that teach you to pay attention and prepare you for what will come. They are also the ones that most groups avoid.

I agree and I do see your point. The specific reason I did not mention them is actually because even in groups where you do all the bosses between point A and B it is often done skipping trash and secondary objectives needed to trigger Bonus Bosses. Boarding Party for example has something like 4 objectives in the bonus if I recall correctly and one of them has to do with Trash mobs, another with specific mobs (Though I admit I do not recall if those two are required for the boss).

Though it is also worth mentioning that in some of those cases such strategies can also be learned via the story mode flashpoints. Cadimumu has an end boss that also requires the tactic of being aware of the 4 sections of the fight room and Athis also has a boss that uses a similar trick with specters between rounds that have their own DoT you have to be aware of as well.

The reason I mentioned HK in particular though is pretty much exactly what you are talking about. In both versions of the fight with HK you have environmental hazards be they turrets or spawning waves of enemies that you have to deal with as well. I so often see people complain about dealing with adds on this boss or that boss that I can not help but wonder if they simply did not learn these tactics.

I honestly have never wiped to HK in foundry unless it glitched, and never wiped to HK in FE unless someone was not listening in regards to how you need to deal with things when he CCs the tank. But I have on numerous occasions had to replace people int he later case because they just refused to listen.

This is the main reason I have a problem with the argument given that it is specifically to "learn tactics" because so often I run into people who want the gear, but who refuse to listen and learn the tactics. It is not just HM Flashpoints either because I have had the same problem when trying to teach people Aurora Cannon and having them not listen and suddenly the group is wiping to Champs.

So to expand on my point about tactics. I hear the complaint in this thread "we need to do all the bosses to learn tactics" but I must reaffirm that no you really do not. A lot of these tactics have been primed in story mode flashpoints at much lower levels. Yes the HM versions will force you to use them because you can not just steam roll through due to level. But they are not the only way to learn these tactics if it is your goal. Even at a higher level if you choose to be observant you can see the tactics in those fights even though you can survive without them (depending on class).

I do agree with you in regards to incentives. I do not think forcing bosses as an objective is the way to do things but if you added a bonus objective to the daily (we do have dailies with bonuses after all) then that could provide the people with a reason to try them if they had time for it.

But as I already said forcing one style or the other is just going to result in complaints.

At the end of the day it honestly all comes down to communication. Tanks do not mystically know a run because they are tanks and the good ones upon doing a new run will say "hey I have not done this one so give me the run down before the bosses" and thus they learn. But the same should be true of DPS and Healers... if you do not know the tactics you can ask. Yes some people do not care, but in my experience there are plenty of people who will gladly answer. Likewise communication as so many have said is the key in regards to all the optional bosses or bonus bosses. If you want to learn or need a drop your best bet is to politely ask. But do not make demands or go pull a boss no one wants to do because in the end that hurts you.. They do not have to save you if you pull agro and the pull will reset with deaths. But it can lead t those who are hostile to such antics voting you out or even blocking you.

Be polite, be considerate, and communicate... and it will get you a lot farther than trying to force what you want on people who disagree.

Wanna talk about gamebreaking behavior? How about people queuing up for HM FP's in GF? Lately there have been an influx of Level 50's with Sub 50 gear coming into Lost Island, which is a Tier 2 Flashpoint and should have a gear requirement.

A good thing to have in mind next time a player screams "Fast run only!!!" denying a player a bosskill that could have improved that players gear a bit.

Even Exotech helps out more then tionese

My statement of gamebreaking ripples through to even harder content, if players cant get better gear what are they supposed to wear?

A good thing to have in mind next time a player screams "Fast run only!!!" denying a player a bosskill that could have improved that players gear a bit.

If we were to apply Occam's Razor and thus assume the simplest and most obvious answer as probable.... given the current time frame and influx of new players that favors the simple explination of them lacking the Artifact Equipment Authorization as it would prevent them from being able to acquire said free Tier 1 PVE armor set.

However if such is the case those individuals could also not make use of Exotech, Columi, Rakata, Black Hole, Campaign, Hazmat, or Dread Gaurd gear rendering the entire argument that people should be forced to farm on their behalf a moot point.... since they would be unable to make use of any such rewards.

As I previously explained in the current post 1.6 progression there is no logical reason to force bosses whose primary drop is simply Tionese as is the case with most skipped bosses. It is more efficient to work on Columi as a Tier 2 since you are given a free set of Tier 1 and endeavor to begin work on Tier 4 armor via your daily rewards.

The tactics argument has moderate merit but I also recently explained at length why most encounters being skipped (the exception being some of the bonus bosses) do not provide a significant tactical primer. While many of the non-skippable and end run bosses can sufficiently fill that role.

To re-iterate my personal stance though. At the end of the day it is inherently selfish for one group or the other to seek to impose their preference on the opposing faction. Instead one should act with consideration of others and communicate politely. Thus in cases where those are willing they may be persuaded, and you also avoid tension that could say them against your request. But it should be the choice of the group, likely via the majority vote, how they wish to conduct themselves.

It is no more or less selfish for one to insist on all bosses than for one to insist on only a few.... both situations rudely impose a self driven desire upon others possibly against their own personal choice or desire.

In short... we should all be considerate to each other regardless of which side of the debate we fall on and via polite and calm communication attempt in each individual instance to come to an understanding. We may not get what we want every time but it is the most logical and civilized approach,

A good thing to have in mind next time a player screams "Fast run only!!!" denying a player a bosskill that could have improved that players gear a bit.

 

Even Exotech helps out more then tionese

 

My statement of gamebreaking ripples through to even harder content, if players cant get better gear what are they supposed to wear?

You cannot force that person to stop screaming, you can however, if the rest of the group agrees, kick the person and look for a new member.

And to answer your question, they are supposed to wear even better gear. Exotech is only a minor upgrade in comparison to a Tionese, but a Black Hole piece is a huge leap forward.

Exotech is only a minor upgrade in comparison to a Tionese, but a Black Hole piece is a huge leap forward.

I have to disagree with you, again! Tionese is rated as 128 with gear rating, Columi/Exotech is rated 136 and Rakata is 140. So statistically the increase from Tionese to Columi/Exotech is TWICE as big than the increase from Columi/Exotech to Rakata. Black Hole gear is rated as 146, but it's very "expensive" and only acquirable through comms, one usually gets 1, max. 2 pieces of BH gear in a week. So what comes to the gearing one should get the free Tionese set and start doing HM FPs(all bosses! ) and get Columi and Exotech drops. During those runs one will probably get enough BH comms for 1-2 pieces as well.

Funny thing I went through the other day here by the way! I was doing my daily HM with my mara and Black Talon popped up. We managed to get to the FIRST convo with Lieut. Sylas and 2 rolls through when our healer started to cry "who is not skipping, who is not skipping!?!?" and I answered "I like convos :)" which made him/her to answer "aha, I will take the 15 minutes punch" and quit the group Well we queued up again and after 3 minutes or so new Columi geared sorc healer popped up. We went through the FP almost without skipping convos and only skipping the bonus boss and we had tons of fun there! The new healer was also very awesome, kept my mara bubbled all the time with the jugg tank we had. It was probably the first time in a month the healer kept my mara bubbled in a HM FP! After finishing we chatted some 10 minutes how fun we had had as we did not skip and enjoyed the story, now I have a quite skilled healer on my friend list who does not want to skip everything! So thanks for the operative healer for quitting the group

The new healer was also very awesome, kept my mara bubbled all the time with the jugg tank we had. It was probably the first time in a month the healer kept my mara bubbled in a HM FP!

You know that keeping anyone bubbled at HM FP is useless and pointless (what can hit you for 20k at HM FP?) and sometimes dangerous and stupid (when you need fast emergency heal but you still got bubble CD on you) :|, right?

You know that keeping anyone bubbled at HM FP is useless and pointless (what can hit you for 20k at HM FP?) and sometimes dangerous and stupid (when you need fast emergency heal but you still got bubble CD on you) :|, right?

It's quite useful when cleaning a group of normal thrash and silvers as there are multiple targets to kill. In bossfights it can be dangerous but I still think it's quite useful when there are adds around.

Most people arent so "vehemently set on skipping" most of us just do not want it changed so we have to do every single boss. I have stated a couple times if someone asks when I am pugging to do the bosses I usually have no objection. I just do not want to Have to Do them every time when I run with my guild. And yes they are all like minded.

Don't say 'most people' when you can actually only speak for yourself. There have been many posts in this thread that are people who are ABSOLUTELY set on skipping no matter what, and that was even before the suggestion that bosses be unskippable was made. Don't speak for the masses - especially when you apparently haven't read what the masses had to say.

(Also, nothing in my post (or previous posts) supported or derided that suggestion, so not sure why you would even direct such an assumption at me. But you know what they say when you assume.)

Also, you apparently completely failed to read anything past that first 8 words, because I clearly outlined a proposition that would keep you from ever having to interact with those that want full runs - and would keep them from ever having to interact with you.

SM EV is geared for people in Tioense. Thats why it drops Coluni gear. Thats what people were doing when the ops went live that and with the lvl 50 daily mods. First time I ran thru it on my healer I hadnt done a Single HM FP and that is when the game first went live. With a pick up group at that.

I think you missed that person's point, which was not that 'I have to do that HM FP in order to gear up' but was "I play this video game for fun, and I find these HM FPs fun".

Not everyone is in the game for the gear grind. However, if you are in the HM FP already, and you know an optional boss drops an upgrade for you why would you not want to do it? Or if you know that optional boss has a fun mechanic (I finally got to do the Directive 7 bonus boss and was completely thrilled with that mechanic, as was the rest of my team who had never gotten to do him before - that was not sarcasm, we thought it was a blast), why would you want to skip it just because it takes 2 minutes longer?

I think you missed that person's point, which was not that 'I have to do that HM FP in order to gear up' but was "I play this video game for fun, and I find these HM FPs fun".

 

Not everyone is in the game for the gear grind. However, if you are in the HM FP already, and you know an optional boss drops an upgrade for you why would you not want to do it? Or if you know that optional boss has a fun mechanic (I finally got to do the Directive 7 bonus boss and was completely thrilled with that mechanic, as was the rest of my team who had never gotten to do him before - that was not sarcasm, we thought it was a blast), why would you want to skip it just because it takes 2 minutes longer?

Personal preference

But how is it fair or respectful for any party to dictate to another how they should play the game? Just because some find watching the Cutscenes every time fun or because some find doing full clears fun and others do not does not mean that either side should get to dictate how the other gets to play the game.

I mentioned in an earlier post that a simple and logical solution would simply be to add a box one could check off for full clears that would filter group finder results. It would allow both variations to remain viable and avoid drama from those with conflicting views.

Anecdotal evidence on either side of the fence does not prove an absolute. If person A was shot down when they ask that does not invalidate the experience of Person B who was not. It just means there is a certain luck of the draw involved.

Lets just hope BW will bring the magical "I WIN"-button into the game soon so you busy players can push it to get to the endboss right from the beginning and maybe even beat it by pushing that button so you don't need to "waste your precious time" with the game and can get the daily comms as easily as possible.

 

Maybe BW will even create own Group Finder section for you busy people so you can go there and let us others to enjoy and play the game as it was planned to be played.

Once again you make posts that attack anyone who doesn't share your point of view. Who are you to say how the game was meant to be played? Play it your style and have fun with it. But don't come on here and sh it all over those who want to do things as quickly as possible. That's just as selfish on your part as is the behavior you're complaining about.

It is not as simple as that, if it were things would be fine. What this 26 pages, 253 posts and 14,487 views thread discuss is the phenomenon of bosskilling in SWTOR. RikHar, I suggest you read through some of it before you dismiss it as whining and crying.

 

The only way to make things better is to discuss in a constructive way and provide feedback to Bioware. Time will tell if they care, even if they do not change their current FPs they might use this feedback for future creations.

You stated in your thread that BW should look into making fps that cannot be completed until all bosses are killed and that the trend (of skipping bosses) is "simply wrong." The very title of the thread is "Gamebreaking behaviour..." You can't now backtrack and say it's not a complaint thread against people who skip bosses. It is very much that.

I can see your point of view, even though I adamantly disagree with it. What you and your fellow non-skippers seem to want however is a game world where all fps are done as you want them done. Do you not see how that's trying to impose your will on all players? If you don't want to skip, go with a group who doesn't. But don't ask that BW make sweeping changes to the entire fp system because you want to see/do it all. That's just as unfair to those who want to skip as you're claiming skipping is to non-skippers.

Once again you make posts that attack anyone who doesn't share your point of view. Who are you to say how the game was meant to be played? Play it your style and have fun with it. But don't come on here and sh it all over those who want to do things as quickly as possible. That's just as selfish on your part as is the behavior you're complaining about.

Nah I was just thinking outloud and hoping they would bring that magical "I WIN"-button to the game so life would be much more easier for you busy people who clearly want to play the game even though you don't seem to have time for it

Also as someone stated here before this thread and similar threads may be essential feedback for BW when it comes for future HM FP creations! As many people here tend to want HM FPs to be as quickly done as possible do YOU wish the future creations to be short tubes with few groups of thrash on the way with one boss at the end that drops a columi/rakata piece without any conversations and stuff which take few minutes of your "precious time"? If YOU answer YES to this question I sincerely feel sorry for you and hope BW never reads or listens anything that comes out from your mouth...

Nah I was just thinking outloud and hoping they would bring that magical "I WIN"-button to the game so life would be much more easier for you busy people who clearly want to play the game even though you don't seem to have time for it

 

Also as someone stated here before this thread and similar threads may be essential feedback for BW when it comes for future HM FP creations! As many people here tend to want HM FPs to be as quickly done as possible do YOU wish the future creations to be short tubes with few groups of thrash on the way with one boss at the end that drops a columi/rakata piece without any conversations and stuff which take few minutes of your "precious time"? If YOU answer YES to this question I sincerely feel sorry for you and hope BW never reads or listens anything that comes out from your mouth...

Believe it or not, we HM speed-run people often love the FPs the first several times. It is just the repeats that get tedious. I even like reliving them again later on alts while leveling. But if I am in serious FP mode, I want to get the daily done on three or more alts. I won't be wanting to listen to Esseles for the 40th time. If you want the conversations, and to have a ton of fun, try soloing or duoing them on their original levels. You feel really epic one-shotting enemies like an actual Jedi or crackshot. Seriously, even of you don't do this just for the conversations, try soloing Taral V at its original level. It is a blast.

You don't get the gear faster, you only get the reward once per day. You might get it with less time invested in playing the game.

You drive from city a to city b in 2hours. You drive back in 1h. Which one is faster?

Sure i need to do the same amount of FPs but its nethertheless faster.