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So it's not ok for "hardcores" to have gear progression?


Darth_Sookie

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Im PRO for giving new 50's some starting gear ...hell it's a good idea.

But making Valor levels rewards as in funny colors and stupid mounts you only use in like 1% of your time...its beyond RUBBISH.

I'm not doing my dailies/weeklies and more just to change my armor color from green to red...it's retarded.

 

End of story.

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I play for competition, not to have a gear advantage and an I-Win pass.

 

I don't care if I don't gain uber gear as a reward. I play for the challenge and the fun, spanking people because I spent longer playing isn't fun. I don't consider myself "casual", but more a PvP fan.

 

If this game is always gear based I will lose interest, obviously there will come a point where everyone is equal anyway but I would rather than sooner than later, then have various rewards which didn't make me god-mode. I mean, how long did you play DOOM with God-Mode enabled, before you felt like there wasn't any challenge in playing and got bored?

 

No doubt people will call me a PvP noob or something and that even when gear is equal they will roflstomp me, but if that's the case, why do you complain? Perhaps it's because you really aren't interested in competative PvP and getting spanked :D

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What if rewards came from things like cooldown reductions, so your 2min CC breaker could drop down to 1 minute RuT over time? Or you gain 10% more Ammo/Willpower, which make you more sustained over periods of time but not completely roflstomp people with a 15%+ advantage (from fresh 50 to full BM). The possiblity of rewards are far greater than simply having better gear. Just wish people tried DAOC or something, to see what competative PvP was all about. Rather than "that other game", which if I remember right, didn't have any PvP to start with, so you were PvE carebears who just got into PvP?
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Root of your problem - You're speaking as if gear is the point of the game.

 

In fact, it's mostly what's wrong with these games.

 

Fun with your friends, or fun on your own (a new concept to the genre, but now valid) is the point of these games.

 

Not having fun - don't play. Want to be measured? Use the ranking system to feel that boost of e-peeny goodness. That's your achievement. I'm not one of those "the gear gap was impossible" people, but it's not like you need a greater advantage for already being better? That's the "elitist" community in these games coming out in the design, and I, for one, am glad it's dying.

 

If some FPS kid wants to come in and beat me, let him. I'll either school him in a whole new type of game, or bow to him respectfully when he wins. I don't need an advantage for having more playtime. Your brain is your advantage.

 

games without e-peen would lose much of their dedicated player base; just imagine how MMOs would be like if there wasn't such a thing as gear.

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*HIGHLIGHTS*

1) Compromise for PVP'ers who want SKILL to dominate WZ's and PVP'ers who want GEAR to work towards.

 

2) A weekly ranking system to determine which TIER of PVP you are SKILLED for.

 

3) Tier 1- beginner skilled players

....Tier 2- Intermediate skilled players (Understand the class)

....Tier 3- HARDCORE PVP'ers who want very competitive and balanced teams

 

4) Gear rewards based on Tier of PVP you participate in to attract players who love PVE style of gear gained by reaching higher tiers of raiding by becoming more skilled, knowing your class mechanics, and working as a team.

 

__________________________________________________ _____________________

Please comment on the pitfalls of this idea and what you like about it. I have read a few posts and I feel this pertains to most of the frustrations of players I have read about PVP

__________________________________________________ _____________________

I think it would be immensely beneficial to the game if PVP warzones were based on the new ranking system or even a separate weekly ranking system. This would have to incorporate a larger pool of players (cross-servers) to que into. Basically the idea is to balance the playing field for more competitive play.

 

I can not express how frustrating it is to play with a team that consists of players that are not up to par with the other team or on the flip side going into the WZ with a team that just massacres the other team. I enjoy playing PVP because I do not have the time to Raid and because every game is different. It would be nice to know that a system was implemented so that SKILL is the balancing factor and NOT the gear. Currently it seems that in the 50 WZ's that a new 50 player can be very effective in the WZ objectives, but can not effectively contribute to attacking and defending players. I am a newer level 50 player with a few pieces of gear and LOVE playing the WZ's even though I am not geared I am constantly at the top of the scoreboards for medals and feel that I am a great contribution to my team. However the players with partial to full Battlemaster gear do not have to use their full skill to kill me because of the gear.

 

This being said I think it is imperative that SKILL become more of a factor in the gameplay WITHOUT eliminating the attraction of spending time to grind that UBER PVP gear. My suggestion is thus to rank players on a weekly system where their performance is monitored to place them in WZ's of equally skilled players regardless of gear. Thus a player that is less than good but has Full battlemaster gear would be placed in the lower spectrum ques where the play would be balanced. And someone who may not be geared, but is walking all over the lower spectrum of pvp gets bumped up to the higher SKILLED players.

 

At 50 implement this system where

 

Tier1- constitutes newer players REGARDLESS of gear

Tier2- constitutes players that have shown SKILL by teamwork, medals and completing objectives

Tier3- Those HARDCORE players that KNOW their Class and want competitive play

 

The "Tier rankings" could reset each week to prevent a geared and skilled player from downplaying to get into a lower tier. And allow players to advance to higher tiers.

 

Rewards could be given like PVE Raid systems contain where the higher the tier Raid the better the gear. But you have to be SKILLED not just Geared to reach the higher tiers of PVP.

 

Again this suggestion is meant to be a compromise between those PVP'ers who do not want gear to become to easy to get, but to allow players to enjoy competitive play without getting walked all over. I think this would attract many players to continue playing PVP.

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From the begining of time the way its worked is you reap what you sow, players that spend more time playing should be reaping better benefits , its as simple as that. The system is balanced and every player has an equal chance to get any gear they want, the problem is the casuals expect to earn the items in a week by only playing an hour a day.

 

They seem to think they have zero chance at winning because everyone is better geared so they cry, we all started at the bottom and had to work our way to the top, with everything in life you must start at the bottom in the mud and get your hands dirty, only one you been through that will you achieve greatness.

 

With an hour a day and the dailies you could easily almost earn full centurion gear within a week and work your way from there.

 

I think these changes are fail from every point of view, currently its not perfect but you dont need to reinvent the wheel, just improve it. I worked hard towards earning my items and by giving equal items away to cry babies that dont wanna earn them you are ripping out every sense of achievement and progress from pvp, without that there will be no point to the repetetive warzone matches, the fun is in competing and having a sense of pride in your achievements.

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From the begining of time the way its worked is you reap what you sow, players that spend more time playing should be reaping better benefits , its as simple as that. The system is balanced and every player has an equal chance to get any gear they want, the problem is the casuals expect to earn the items in a week by only playing an hour a day.

 

They seem to think they have zero chance at winning because everyone is better geared so they cry, we all started at the bottom and had to work our way to the top, with everything in life you must start at the bottom in the mud and get your hands dirty, only one you been through that will you achieve greatness.

 

With an hour a day and the dailies you could easily almost earn full centurion gear within a week and work your way from there.

 

I think these changes are fail from every point of view, currently its not perfect but you dont need to reinvent the wheel, just improve it. I worked hard towards earning my items and by giving equal items away to cry babies that dont wanna earn them you are ripping out every sense of achievement and progress from pvp, without that there will be no point to the repetetive warzone matches, the fun is in competing and having a sense of pride in your achievements.

 

I agree completely that you have to work hard for that gear. However I think that pvp should be about placing skill against skill. The gear should still remain, but put equally skilled (not the same as equally geared) people in same tiered warzones. One sith jugg at battlemaster may not be as good as a fresh 50 sith jug if the fresh 50 actually knows how to play and utilizes all skills to help the team. Therefore it would be better to balance the skills in tiered pvp.

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People having better gear than other people isn't a problem.

 

People having to be steamrolled, constantly by groups full of people in better gear than them is the problem.

 

Proper queues and brackets and server merging would be needed for this .. and apparently it's easier to just screw everything else up instead.

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games without e-peen would lose much of their dedicated player base; just imagine how MMOs would be like if there wasn't such a thing as gear.

 

You never played DAOC, or how about Guild Wars 2 when it's rel'd?

 

All of the "hardcore" PvP'ers love and play these games as it's Skill vs Skill. Not Gear >>> Gear.

 

I played DAOC for 10 years which never had a gear grind because the PvP environment was forever changing, new people, new groups, new combinations etc. It was always fun winning fights you were outnumbered in because you were much better players.

 

Yes, you should get stuff the more you play. But it shouldn't be something which gives you a significant advantage over other people, otherwise you will put "casual" players off PvP and only end up fighting the same 8 people.

 

DAOC for me, had this down to a T as there were so many different styles of play and it was all Open World PvP. You could "solo", small man, group, zerg. People who thought they were "skilled" would always try to find the hardest class, or weakest class to try and play. Sometimes it failed miserably, other times you had the best and most memorable fights you could think of.

 

But in this game, where its 8v8 and gear can play such a huge difference it's hard to feel motivated as a fresh 50 and for many players who don't play 10 hours a day it's simply off putting.

 

Not saying I'm in that bracket, I play a lot at the moment but due to situations found myself doing different things, then with 1.2's release making Champ/Cent gear worthless, I'm holding out until the new patch is in, which mean's spending time on alts and playing with friends.

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Also, is it really "hard work" to spend 5 hours a day where you could even "autorun" in the corner AFK and you'd still get the rewards?

 

Or go to Ilum and Kill Trade and ding valor 60 in a day or 2?

 

How do either of those equate to "hard work". Also, those who played 1 toon since release had a much easier time of it. I remember on my Sorc, being level 50 in the 10/50 bracket and just owning everything because I had PvP gear. I could have done that with my eyes shut. Then there was ilum, travel to ilum spend 5 minutes trading the walkers and you got your dialy/weekly done in minutes.

 

Then they changed Ilum etc and the Imps would just obliterate the Republics 3:1.

 

It wasn't "hard work" on my sorc, it was stupidly easy. But as the game progresses and things change, the gap is just getting MUCH larger between fresh 50's and the long term players.

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People having better gear than other people isn't a problem.

 

People having to be steamrolled, constantly by groups full of people in better gear than them is the problem.

 

Proper queues and brackets and server merging would be needed for this .. and apparently it's easier to just screw everything else up instead.

 

I'd say this is accurate, but it's funny when you think about it. If they had tons of people (through merging, battlegroups, whatever) to do excellent match making, then your gear bonus would be negated anyway since you'd only be playing against similar players in similar gear.

 

The only advantage better gear provides requires worse geared players to use it against. So, people in favor of gear progression instead of/in addition to a simple rating match making system benefit more from poor match making.

 

TLDR, progression=advantage. if you want an advantage, you don't want good match making

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You never played DAOC, or how about Guild Wars 2 when it's rel'd?

 

All of the "hardcore" PvP'ers love and play these games as it's Skill vs Skill. Not Gear >>> Gear.

 

I played DAOC for 10 years which never had a gear grind because the PvP environment was forever changing, new people, new groups, new combinations etc. It was always fun winning fights you were outnumbered in because you were much better players.

 

Yes, you should get stuff the more you play. But it shouldn't be something which gives you a significant advantage over other people, otherwise you will put "casual" players off PvP and only end up fighting the same 8 people.

 

DAOC for me, had this down to a T as there were so many different styles of play and it was all Open World PvP. You could "solo", small man, group, zerg. People who thought they were "skilled" would always try to find the hardest class, or weakest class to try and play. Sometimes it failed miserably, other times you had the best and most memorable fights you could think of.

 

But in this game, where its 8v8 and gear can play such a huge difference it's hard to feel motivated as a fresh 50 and for many players who don't play 10 hours a day it's simply off putting.

 

Not saying I'm in that bracket, I play a lot at the moment but due to situations found myself doing different things, then with 1.2's release making Champ/Cent gear worthless, I'm holding out until the new patch is in, which mean's spending time on alts and playing with friends.

 

I never played DAOC or GW2 but I'm not suggesting that gear should make that vast a difference, but that gear should still matter; in other words, if two players of equal skill duelled and one had better gear than the other, then the player with the better gear should win, albeit by a really tiny margin, ceteris paribus.

 

I did play WoW and vanilla WoW (because TBC changed everything and made gear differences even more pronounced) wasn't too bad in the gear difference: blue-geared players could still beat purple-geared players with some ingenuity/skill or if they happened to be the right class (rock, paper, scissors kinda thing); of course if someone had REALLY high level epics (anything >2 tiers above you; like rakata v a blue-geared 50) the difference would be substantial, but it is part of the motivation for getting better gear.

 

The reason why this problem is so acute in SWTOR is because the abundance of rakata gear makes it feel like gear is a big problem; but it works the other way too, that is players who aren't rakata-geared can also get them if they wish as the barriers aren't very high.

 

I find what you're saying about the 8v8 is quite true as WoW had the same issue in 10 v 10 (WSG) where gear literally allowed players to farm off the graveyard. However, it changes once you increase the total players, e.g. 40 v 40 (Alterac Valley); in a large-scale warzone the individual player becomes less important and the focus shifts towards teamwork and coordination.

 

The thing about fresh 50s finding it hard is also true, and I feel it'll get worse because of this whole 'expertise' idea, eventually players will accumulate so much expertise that the barrier to entry gets raised so high only the incumbents will be able to meaningfully participate.

 

Also, I too would like to see more open world pvp; but it's kinda apparent that people in this game aren't all too interested, at least on my server - I've never come across any large-scale operations (raids) on enemy towns or cities. So far my only taste of world pvp (Ilum aside) were the occasional chance encounters I had while leveling up.

 

Also, consider this: how different would SWTOR be from a FPS (like Counterstrike) if we didn't have gear? I hope you try to see what I'm getting at.

 

TL;DR: There are issues with the whole 'gear' idea but without it (or in the absence of alternatives which I hadn't considered in my post) there wouldn't be a sense of progression; without a sense of progression there wouldn't be much incentive to pay a monthly subscription or even log on. Progression is like a 'save game' option, even games like Diablo have it.

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I actually like the way the pvp progression is heading. You want to stand out? Here's a special color look. (Although they need to give that color look built-in augment slots or something, if we won't be able to get augments into the best looking gear that we achieved, then it's kind of pointless to have because we'll be wearing oranges).

 

A stat gap shouldn't determine if you win or lose a fight,imo.

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Open World PVP Fails in this game so far, because there is nothing meaningful to work towards.

 

I'm not trying to force "DAOC's" system into this game, but for those who never played it, it may give you an idea what kept some of us playing for so long.

 

In DAOC you had 3 factions == 3 frontiers. In each frontier you had 2 relic keeps, 6 or 7 main keeps, then 4 towers surrounding each keep.

 

Whoever controlled the most towers, gained access to a dungeon called Darkness Falls, which provided a great place to XP, aswell as good "salvage" gear for crafters.

 

Each Tower provided small bonuses, aswell as defensive structures to retreat to if you wanted to capture more towers etc.

 

With Keeps, the outer-edged keeps with all towers would allow you to teleport to that keep from your home realm. Making invading and more RvR action. Each keep would offer small bonuses to xp/cash gain etc.

 

Then, you had the ability to capture enemy relics, each realm had 1 Strength Relic and 1 Power relic. So it was possible for 1 realm to hold all 6 relics, for 20% melee and/or 20% power maximum bonus.

 

This gave players an incredible incentive to defend their home realm, but strangely enough 20% in DAOC really didn't seem to be the be all-end all it is in SWTOR. I guess because of the class dynamics were considerably better than in SWTOR so far.

 

You also gained Realm Ranks (just like Valor), which had 10 realm levels inside. Each level would grant you a Realm Point which you could use to buy certain abilities both passive and active. Things like purge, the more you invested the more frequent you could use it. This would remove all negative effects. Also things like +4/8/12/16 or w/e to your stats.

 

You also had Master Levels, Champion Levels which helped to progress your toon. All of which are gainable through PvP.

 

But with SWTOR there is nothing to do, besides queue for warzones and especially on the lower pop servers, the strong get stronger and the weak get bored trying. I know in a night of PvP I would often get put up against the same group of players game after game. These would generally consist of full BM premade + 4 other random players. Whereas Republic are often varying in gear etc, just to not having the gear to start with really.

 

Also, Ilum was completely Empire controlled from the get-go. It wasn't too bad when you could trade the mech's, but as soon as that changed you either found people kill-trading, or on my server, Empire would just complete hose down the Republic due to having atleast 2x the numbers. Giving them a much better oppurtunity to complete their daily/weeklies. Then that progression became far more apparent in warzones.

 

Now, 1on1, it probably isn't a problem. But you get full teams who focus fire down 1 or 2 players and you get some serious challenges which from what I've seen is impossible to counter.

 

I play with some friends in Vent, I will call for assist on whichever target I see. Primarily Snipers/Gun Slingers then any Healer I see and call for CC's and cycle etc. So we are all hitting the same target which often encourages other people to him them with us. But there is such a difference when we aren't all in full champ gear, that in some of the cases even when we focus fire we aren't able to get through and drop them.

 

Long story short, the strong get stronger and the weak give up, atleast that's what I see on my server. Not feeling competative isn't fun.

 

PvP progression / incentives can come from so many different area's not something which provides such a huge advantage.

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