Jiminison Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 So BW will keep buffing the other trees while completely ignoring the shadow tanks for PVP.. To Gear up I have to pay a monthly fee. Yet All the changes to Shadow and Sin Tanks have been to better the experience for the pve crowd which isn't forced to pay a monthly fee to compete. I have no doubt PVE imbalance is the reason Kinetic gets overlooked for any kind of buff Offensive or Defensive wise. BH tanks tear through my defenses so does inf and balance shadows now with sent getting more buffs they will tear through my defenses even faster too. When kinetic was too strong BW wasted no time in smashing it with-in two major patches yet they take their sweet time with with classes who AC's who have been dominating for the last year and a half... Im about done with this crap . Put our damage on par with the other tanks and our heals . My guardian heals for 100K most matches I am lucky to get 20K on my more geared shadow ***. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeyboardNinja Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 First off, shadows aren't healing tanks, so your guardian comparison is meaningless. Secondly, PvE shadows most certainly do have to pay to play. Gear is more important in PvE, not less, due to bolster. Also, we can't even walk in the door of an instance without an ops pass or a subscription. Finally, shadow tanks are fine in PvP. They're not great. They aren't stellar. But they're fine. Powertech DPS are going to tear through your defenses. That's a given, because almost all of their damage bypasses shield and defense. They're tank killers; that's what they do. But that holds true for all three tanks. In fact, you take less damage on your shadow (assuming you're playing correctly) than on the other two tanks due to the flat DR mechanic and Shadow Protection. I don't think shadow tanks are in the best place right now in the PvP metagame, but they're not in an awful place. I play my shadow in PvP and I do just fine. I can 1v1 with the best of them and pull my weight in team play. I think a guardian could do my job better (except node guarding), and a vanguard probably could, but I at least do the job well enough that skill is going to matter more than class balance, and that's all that matters to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelanis Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 So BW will keep buffing the other trees while completely ignoring the shadow tanks for PVP.. To Gear up I have to pay a monthly fee. Yet All the changes to Shadow and Sin Tanks have been to better the experience for the pve crowd which isn't forced to pay a monthly fee to compete. I have no doubt PVE imbalance is the reason Kinetic gets overlooked for any kind of buff Offensive or Defensive wise. BH tanks tear through my defenses so does inf and balance shadows now with sent getting more buffs they will tear through my defenses even faster too. When kinetic was too strong BW wasted no time in smashing it with-in two major patches yet they take their sweet time with with classes who AC's who have been dominating for the last year and a half... Im about done with this crap . Put our damage on par with the other tanks and our heals . My guardian heals for 100K most matches I am lucky to get 20K on my more geared shadow ***. Actually, we do have to pay to pay that same monthly fee to compete. We can't run Operations without an Ops pass as preferred, and we have to get the same authorization to wear purple gear that PvP junkies do. As for why these classes "tear through" your defenses: KBN is completely right, most of a Powertech's damage ignores your defense mechanics. All their burns (and Flame Burst, too) completely ignore shield, defense and armor, and Rail Shot gets a pretty substantial armor penetration boost. Shadows have some decent armor penetration, too, and Force Breach does Internal damage, again bypassing all of your defenses. Both Sentinel trees have great ways to ignore your defenses, with auto-crits and 100% armor penetration from Combat and lots of Elemental damage from Watchman. All tanks suffer the same problems, it's not just Shadows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiminison Posted August 18, 2014 Author Share Posted August 18, 2014 (edited) First off, shadows aren't healing tanks, so your guardian comparison is meaningless. Secondly, PvE shadows most certainly do have to pay to play. Gear is more important in PvE, not less, due to bolster. Also, we can't even walk in the door of an instance without an ops pass or a subscription. Finally, shadow tanks are fine in PvP. They're not great. They aren't stellar. But they're fine. Powertech DPS are going to tear through your defenses. That's a given, because almost all of their damage bypasses shield and defense. They're tank killers; that's what they do. But that holds true for all three tanks. In fact, you take less damage on your shadow (assuming you're playing correctly) than on the other two tanks due to the flat DR mechanic and Shadow Protection. I don't think shadow tanks are in the best place right now in the PvP metagame, but they're not in an awful place. I play my shadow in PvP and I do just fine. I can 1v1 with the best of them and pull my weight in team play. I think a guardian could do my job better (except node guarding), and a vanguard probably could, but I at least do the job well enough that skill is going to matter more than class balance, and that's all that matters to me. The DR Mechanic is only worth an ish upon unstealthing. We were healing tanks so don't forget that point so to act like I am being ridiculous about the guardian comparison and I am a little miffed that being a healing tank is fine for them but not for us especially since that was our original design ...DR plain sucks atleast in it's current state and the fact I have to keep a floating rock belt up in my rotation is b.s another global cooldown I could be applying more damage instead.. I am full tank on my guardian and my shadow my guardian leaves my shadow in the dust in every column... and no! BH tanks shouldn't get to be tanks and tank killers bypassing every defence I have,really?.. I really hate the "well lets lay down and take it attitude because X class does what X class does . Every spec and class should have the same opportunity to beat any other spec class.. Sorcs and sages can top damage and heals in one wz so what is that ? "Just what those classes do!" so it's all good. I wont lay down and be a punk, I will keep voicing my cause to bring the Shadow and sin tanks in line with all tanks and dps should have a lot harder time beating us as they do now .... WE are falling behind we are not ok and it's B.S I have to argue with fellow shadows about this why the hell do you want to keep us mediocre?. Edited August 18, 2014 by Jiminison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiminison Posted August 18, 2014 Author Share Posted August 18, 2014 Actually, we do have to pay to pay that same monthly fee to compete. We can't run Operations without an Ops pass as preferred, and we have to get the same authorization to wear purple gear that PvP junkies do. As for why these classes "tear through" your defenses: KBN is completely right, most of a Powertech's damage ignores your defense mechanics. All their burns (and Flame Burst, too) completely ignore shield, defense and armor, and Rail Shot gets a pretty substantial armor penetration boost. Shadows have some decent armor penetration, too, and Force Breach does Internal damage, again bypassing all of your defenses. Both Sentinel trees have great ways to ignore your defenses, with auto-crits and 100% armor penetration from Combat and lots of Elemental damage from Watchman. All tanks suffer the same problems, it's not just Shadows. OK fair enough since 2 of the most popular classes and their mirrors are "Tank killers" and both of them tanky in their own right who are we good (shadow tanks) against and why the hell am I still playing this game ... No class(S) should be able to completely steam roll another class just because of the virtue you rolled them and it's awesome to know no matter how much grinding I do in boring *** wz certain classes will always have the upperhand i.e BH and apparently sent..... they also do very well against non tanks too, so why roll anything else. Man I am about fed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaos_KidSWTOR Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I actually agree here. Sin Tanks need some sort of Unstoppable effect during Force Lightning to make them better, heck, just give them a skill that makes it so that they are immune to Physics Effects for say 6 seconds (akin to Hydro Overrides) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeyboardNinja Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 (edited) The DR Mechanic is only worth an ish upon unstealthing. Except if you're playing right, you get to keep it all the time! Even in PvP, the first tick from Telekinetic Throw is instant. Even if they hit a defensive CD or stun you or knockback or cloak, you still got that first hit in. That's enough to keep your stacks up. The only mechanic in the entire game which prevents Shadow Protection from being reapplied is Saber Reflect, and if they're burning reflect before you channel just in the hopes of preventing you from keeping your stacks up, you've probably won the duel anyway. We were healing tanks so don't forget that point so to act like I am being ridiculous about the guardian comparison and I am a little miffed that being a healing tank is fine for them but not for us especially since that was our original design We were healing tanks. It didn't work. They aren't healing tanks, at least not to the extent that we were. They have a defensive cooldown which heals. That's different from healing being part of a core mitigation mechanic. ...DR plain sucks atleast in it's current state and the fact I have to keep a floating rock belt up in my rotation is b.s another global cooldown I could be applying more damage instead.. Pro tip: Kinetic Ward is off the GCD. I am full tank on my guardian and my shadow my guardian leaves my shadow in the dust in every column... and no! BH tanks shouldn't get to be tanks and tank killers bypassing every defence I have,really? Powertech tanks aren't killing an equally skilled and geared Shadow tank 1v1 anytime soon. Not even close. WE are falling behind we are not ok and it's B.S I have to argue with fellow shadows about this why the hell do you want to keep us mediocre?. Because we aren't mediocre? Edited August 18, 2014 by KeyboardNinja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelanis Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 ... and no! BH tanks shouldn't get to be tanks and tank killers bypassing every defence I have,really?.. I really hate the "well lets lay down and take it attitude because X class does what X class does ... I think you are confusing PT tanks with Pyro PTs. Pyro PTs will burn through most anything (getting top damage in every WZ I played my Vanguard on with 0 PvP gear was pretty amusing) because they're built to bypass traditional defenses short of cleansing. Pro tip against them: Resilience a half second after their Incendiary Missile hits you and you waste their attempted Rail Shot, as well as cleansing their 2 burns. OK fair enough since 2 of the most popular classes and their mirrors are "Tank killers" and both of them tanky in their own right who are we good (shadow tanks) against and why the hell am I still playing this game ... No class(S) should be able to completely steam roll another class just because of the virtue you rolled them and it's awesome to know no matter how much grinding I do in boring *** wz certain classes will always have the upperhand i.e BH and apparently sent..... they also do very well against non tanks too, so why roll anything else. Man I am about fed up. Maybe they're popular because ... I don't know ... they're good at killing things? They're not just good at killing tanks: they're pretty good at killing everything. Anyway, as Shadow tanks, we have some answers against pretty much everything. We're in a bit of a valley right now, compared to past iterations of the Shadow Tank (I'm looking at you, 1.0), but we can definitely win against any other class out there if we play smart enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venomlash Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Maybe I'm biased because I only PvE, but my Shadow feels just fine when tanking. Shadow DPS needed some love, and Balance got theirs in 2.8 and Infiltration is getting retuned in 2.10. Kinetic Combat is just fine; it's still a fairly fiddly (read: high skill cap) spec to play but it WORKS. Make like the situation in Ukraine and Crimea river, OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JouerTue Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 l2keep 4 stacks..if you play correctly you need only one tick of lightning/throw...you can cloak, you can use resilience before the channel..and a consistent percentage of the heals in guardians comes from guardian leap with 2 pieces of dps set.. i always felt like shadow tanks are the best tanks dps wise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vember Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 (edited) First off, shadows aren't healing tanks, Not anymore, thanks in no small part to you. Shadow/Assassins were the original healing tanks. BTW, they are not in a good place in pvp. We were healing tanks. It didn't work. They aren't healing tanks, at least not to the extent that we were. They have a defensive cooldown which heals. That's different from healing being part of a core mitigation mechanic. What? Juggs are healing more now than Shadows were back when our healing was considered "overpowered", before the first giant nerf to Darkness/Kinetic self healing. I have more self healing on my Vengeance spec than my Darkness tank ever did. Edited August 20, 2014 by Vember Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeyboardNinja Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 (edited) What? Juggs are healing more now than Shadows were back when our healing was considered "overpowered", before the first giant nerf to Darkness/Kinetic self healing. I have more self healing on my Vengeance spec than my Darkness tank ever did. And this is precisely why you think that shadows are in such an awful place in PvP. If you're using Telekinetic Throw so infrequently that your Guardian is healing for more than your shadow used to (which was 8% every 12 seconds played optimally) then you basically never have stacks now. Focused Defense has a CD of 120 seconds. Let's assume that you get all 10 charges over the duration. Each charge is healing you, on average, for what…2k? Let's go with that. So, that's 20k healing once every 120 seconds, or 167 HPS. Telekinetic Throw, ideally used, was 8% of max health every 12 seconds. Assuming 35k max health, that's 2800 healing, or 233 HPS. Thus, Focused Defense is good for barely 71% of the healing of an ideally played pre-2.5 shadow tank just from Telekinetic Throw! The passive stance heals were good for about 50-60 additional HPS, and then you have the healing from Battle Readiness. In order for your healing on your pre-2.5 shadow tank to have been less than your current-day Vig Guardian, you would have been using Telekinetic Throw once every 26 seconds! If we go all the way back to the first nerf to the self healing (patch 1.3), we find that you would have been using your Telekinetic Throw once every 52 seconds. If you still play that way, it's really not surprising that you hate the Shadow Protection mechanic, because you would never be able to maintain your stacks! Oh, and BTW, all of the above math assumes that you're using Focused Defense exactly on cooldown, which is almost never the case even in a hotly contested warzone. In short, I'm sorry to keep harping on this, but tighten up your play and you'll find your shadow does a lot better than you think it does. Edited August 20, 2014 by KeyboardNinja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Nala Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 (edited) I'll just leave this here. The Healing/DR fight has been argued and KBN won. But the results speak for themselves. Although “hard crowd control” (stun and incapacitate effects) is a large component of playing a tank in PvP, we do not believe it is the only deciding factor. Certainly your example highlights that Powertechs/Vanguards have less crowd control over time than their tank counterparts, yet we do not believe this directly correlates to their overall power in PvP. In order to help express why we have this philosophy we want to show you the current win rates for all tank specializations. This data has been gathered over thousands of Warzone Arena matches since the launch of Game Update 2.6 in both solo and group ranked queue. Powertech/Vanguard – 51.17% Juggernaut/Guardian – 50.49% Assassin/Shadow – 47.90% If you look at the data you can see that the win rates of each tank are actually directly inverse to the amount of hard crowd control the class has. With this in mind we don’t necessarily believe that increasing or reducing a classes crowd control is the correct course of action to take at this time. However, with that being said, we do have concerns about tanks in PvP. Players tend to feel that they are not as valuable as a pure DPS class or in some cases, even a hybrid tank/DPS. We are looking at ways to increase viability for all tanks in PvP. We don’t have specifics to announce at this moment but it is definitely something on our radar. In fact, this is definitely something we would love to see your feedback on. What could change, or be improved upon to increase desirability of pure tanks in PvP? Dozens of ways to change this that don't result in adding back the healing. But we can't lower the 'skill cap', heaven forbid. Edited August 20, 2014 by Master-Nala Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vember Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 (edited) And this is precisely why you think that shadows are in such an awful place in PvP. If you're using Telekinetic Throw so infrequently that your Guardian is healing for more than your shadow used to (which was 8% every 12 seconds played optimally) then you basically never have stacks now. Focused Defense has a CD of 120 seconds. Let's assume that you get all 10 charges over the duration. Each charge is healing you, on average, for what…2k? Let's go with that. So, that's 20k healing once every 120 seconds, or 167 HPS. Telekinetic Throw, ideally used, was 8% of max health every 12 seconds. Assuming 35k max health, that's 2800 healing, or 233 HPS. Thus, Focused Defense is good for barely 71% of the healing of an ideally played pre-2.5 shadow tank just from Telekinetic Throw! The passive stance heals were good for about 50-60 additional HPS, and then you have the healing from Battle Readiness. In order for your healing on your pre-2.5 shadow tank to have been less than your current-day Vig Guardian, you would have been using Telekinetic Throw once every 26 seconds! If we go all the way back to the first nerf to the self healing (patch 1.3), we find that you would have been using your Telekinetic Throw once every 52 seconds. If you still play that way, it's really not surprising that you hate the Shadow Protection mechanic, because you would never be able to maintain your stacks! Oh, and BTW, all of the above math assumes that you're using Focused Defense exactly on cooldown, which is almost never the case even in a hotly contested warzone. In short, I'm sorry to keep harping on this, but tighten up your play and you'll find your shadow does a lot better than you think it does. Are you figuring Endure Pain into that? Not to mention the self healing Immortal specs are putting out. I see your'e still relying on the DR argument in pvp...current status of Darkness tanks in pvp doesn't lie. You've changed your tune a bit about how they are in pvp now from your theorycrafting posts back in December about how they were going to be once the patch dropped. Many of us told you that this was going to happen, and you and Thok shouted us all down. I'm not gonna lie, it still pisses me off. I'll just leave this here. The Healing/DR fight has been argued and KBN won. But the results speak for themselves. Several of us predicted this would be a bad change for Darkness in pvp and we were told repeatedly that we were wrong. Currently the worst pvp tank in the game. Edited August 20, 2014 by Vember Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeyboardNinja Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 (edited) Are you figuring Endure Pain into that? Not to mention the self healing Immortal specs are putting out. I see your'e still relying on the DR argument in pvp...current status of Darkness tanks in pvp doesn't lie. You've changed your tune a bit about how they are in pvp now from your theorycrafting posts back in December about how they were going to be once the patch dropped. Many of us told you that this was going to happen, and you and Thok shouted us all down. I'm not gonna lie, it still pisses me off. I'm not factoring Endure Pain or the 2pc set bonus into those numbers. It's not difficult to include them as well, and you'll find that the results still indicate you're delaying Telekinetic Throw by a very, very significant factor. Several of us predicted this would be a bad change for Darkness in pvp and we were told repeatedly that we were wrong. Currently the worst pvp tank in the game. Just because we have the worst win ratio doesn't make us the worst tank. It means that people are winning less with the class than they are with other classes. The fact that you're posting here telling me that shadows are bad tanks while simultaneously not playing the class correctly is a demonstration of why there is a disparity. You certainly cannot justify to me a conclusion that our current win/loss ratio is solely on account of the difference between DR and healing. I still maintain that the 2.5 change improved shadows for frontline tanking. They're not as good at frontline tanking as the other two tanks are, and I never claimed they would be. The 2.5 change did nerf shadows for certain very specific tasks, such as dueling weaker DPS or tank classes and node guarding, but we're still better at those tasks than the other two tanks. More importantly, that nerf was only noticeable because we were all used to judging shadows exclusively in the realm of things it used to do well! Those things were nerfed, and the elements of PvP tanking that we weren't used to looking at were buffed. The metagame still hasn't caught up, and everyone is still hung up on the fact that we lost the healing. The DR is good. The DR is very good. Outside of situational control (which we lost) and extremely low-DPS opponents, the DR is strictly superior to the situation we were in pre-2.5. It's just that it looks different on the scoreboard and it's more punishing in situations where you fail to use your class tools optimally. Edited August 20, 2014 by KeyboardNinja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Nala Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 The thing I don't get is why every other class gets to have simple, straightforward procs and mechanics and Shadows get stuck with the clunky that is Shadow Protection. Hell, the devs are even making Combat Sentinels easier to play. I'm perfectly willing to concede the point that the DR would be better if it were consistent. It has a ridiculously low duration for the set up it requires. Ah well, Shadows will continue to underperform in PvP to maintain that "skill cap". I've accepted my fate. That's been easier since my Balance Sage has been able to melt faces so well now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tairikoz Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) If you're including top-tier ranked arenas, then I have to disagree with your statement that shadow tanks are "fine." Shadow Protection lasts 12 seconds leaving you with plenty of time to build up 3 stacks of Harnessed Shadows in casual PvP, but what about all the frequent guard switching and CCs you have to do? And you have to worry about being CC'ed yourself (which will almost guarantee you won't have your stacks up). Then there's worrying about breaking Awes and Flash Bangs with a poorly timed Force Breach. I'm not sure how often all of you compete in arenas but having to focus on all that AND keep 4 stacks of Shadow Protection up is improbable. If your priority is keeping your stacks up versus making sure your teammates have the guard and peels they need then you're a detriment to your arena team. So people created hybrid builds like Dark Maul wherein they don't even take the Harnessed Shadows talent. The majority of top-tier players who tank as a shadow now only run Dark Maul because it can burst, it has better CC, and you don't have to be concerned with Shadow Protection stacks. Back when 8v8 ranked warzones were still in the game (I still can't come up with any GOOD reason why they removed them in the first place) I was our designated node guarder while our guardian tank was at mid with the group. Honestly, I LOVE to node guard. It could be extremely stressful when the games were really close but I didn't want to trust anyone else with the responsibility. We have so many great utilities for holding off enemy stealthers and give our team time to get over and help out if necessary. We used to be able to keep ourselves afloat and still efficiently kill the enemy stealther but now we're going to lose that 1v1 against any good infiltration shadow. I don't know who your best is on your servers but on Jung Ma you will lose to the top-tier players. Also, if your team is slow on their response time or simply unable to help, you're going to lose the node. So for node guarding I only run Infiltration. Even if I'm squishier it's 10x easier to 1v1 and stall at a node than Kinetic Combat. Now I'm not saying I want the self-healing returned because I know we'll never get it back. But honestly, the duration for Shadow Protection is simply too short for arenas and telling me I need to "tighten up my rotation" just tells me you don't play arenas competitively. If the duration of Shadow Protection could be increased by just 4 seconds it would help a tremendous amount to QoL for arena tanking. But even if that were changed Guardian tanks will still be leagues ahead of us as far as utility and defensive cooldowns. We simply can't compete with them there. Maybe if our Phasewalk gave us a better buff? Like someone said, the ideas are out there to help us. Bioware just needs to figure out what they're going to do. Edited August 23, 2014 by Tairikoz Forgot that Slow Time is a smart AoE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memo- Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Then there's worrying about breaking Awes and Flash Bangs with Slow Time and Force Breach. Force Breach doesn't grant Harnessed Shadows -stacks, and Slow Time is a smart AoE. Not sure what your point here is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tairikoz Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) That Force Breach will break the mez effect? I forgot about Slow Time being a smart AoE. I edited my first post to fix my mistake. Edited August 23, 2014 by Tairikoz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Several of us predicted this would be a bad change for Darkness in pvp and we were told repeatedly that we were wrong. Currently the worst pvp tank in the game. Show us data from ranked PVP when shadows had self healing, then you can talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vember Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Show us data from ranked PVP when shadows had self healing, then you can talk. Oh please, do you even play this game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
floriwie Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 (edited) You are selling PVE arguments in PVP KBN. Focused Defense has some 200s CD so, what how many arenas are going that long. PVE fight goes like 8 mins then your arguments has a value but not in PVP, you die or win CD resets.. Now what is happening in PVP Arenas, with the uncleansable dots tank tunneling is the name of the game and inside of 180s match (which must be average duration I think) Guardian tank has hand down best tools for it. So you are in you Guardian tank, they are tank tunneling you, pop heal 2 full and you win your full health without your healer doing anything, if you have dots on u and your defensive CDs DR working against everything instead of a cheesy shield mechanic. And lets see what happens to a Shadow, pop %25 DR for 15s, Resilience, ohh dots re-applied, I 6K HP I restored is already gone, ohh they tab dotted everything I am getitng tone of damage guard damage, can't defend, can't shield anything. Edited August 27, 2014 by floriwie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelanis Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 You are selling PVE arguments in PVP KBN. Focused Defense has some 200s CD so, what how many arenas are going that long. PVE fight goes like 8 mins then your arguments has a value but not in PVP, you die or win CD resets.. Now what is happening in PVP Arenas, with the uncleansable dots tank tunneling is the name of the game and inside of 180s match (which must be average duration I think) Guardian tank has hand down best tools for it. So you are in you Guardian tank, they are tank tunneling you, pop heal 2 full and you win your full health without your healer doing anything, if you have dots on u and your defensive CDs DR working against everything instead of a cheesy shield mechanic. And lets see what happens to a Shadow, pop %25 DR for 15s, Resilience, ohh dots re-applied, I 6K HP I restored is already gone, ohh they tab dotted everything I am getitng tone of damage guard damage, can't defend, can't shield anything. If you're going to tell someone they're wrong, then you at least need to know how the abilities you're talking about work. Yes, Warding Call is a little stronger against dots than Battle Readiness, but Shadows have much more passive DR against them, and more overall DR with Battle Readiness up, not to mention the fact that Battle Readiness lasts longer. In addition to this, Focused Defense may heal you for 20k health as a tank if you're lucky (and after the dot damage is taken out of that, it doesn't come out to as much as you seem to think), but it doesn't get rid of those dots, nor does it rob them of any additional tim to dot you as Resilience does, and that's one thing it still has on Saber Reflect. Resilience not only robs them of all the damage they'd do with their original application, it delays the reapplication for 5 seconds, which, when you consider damage lost on the purge, comes out to more than 20k damage from any sane usage of Resilience as a purge. After that, both tanks are out of cooldowns to use against dots (unless you'd really waste Saber Ward on dots), and the Shadow's natural defenses against it will win out. If you're going to use an anecdote as evidence as to why Guardians are better than Shadows, pick one where they actually are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
floriwie Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 (edited) I see on my Guardian that heal ticks for 3.7K HP 10 charges in a lucky day if 5 of them crit its 20K + normal ticks we are speaking 30K HP, so you should check your facts also. And yes BR DR for 15s is better then Guardian one but how many Guardian has lets look that Saber Ward 12 s (%50 def %25 DR - 180s CD), Warding Call 10s (%40 DR 150s CD), Enure 15s - %5 DR talented (nice buffer for the healer - 60s CD), Focused Defende h2f nough said (120s CD ), Guardian Slash 20s %3DR (20s CD), Reflect. As you see in most critical 60s of a fight a Guardian tank will have some sort of a DR and some other useful CDs and godly AOE mez which will neutralize every hard switch (I hate playing against teams with 3 Knights/Warriors). What Shadow has 15s BR %25 DR on 120s CD, Deflection 12s %50 Def (120s CD which fails more often it defend something) and Resilience 5s immunity (38s ish CD) and don't tell me Shadow Protection first of all nobody in competive arenas spec to it (Arena spec is 23/21/2 for low slash which is much better 4s stun on 15s CD then crapy spike 2s 20s CD then AOE damage reduction and Maul to burst) and every time other team hard switch you will be stunned so forget about refreshing Shadow Protection. Bioware statistics says who is the better Arena tank and you are objective enough you can find the reasons above. Edited August 27, 2014 by floriwie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelanis Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 (edited) I see on my Guardian that heal ticks for 3.7K HP 10 charges in a lucky day if 5 of them crit its 20K + normal ticks we are speaking 30K HP, so you should check your facts also. And yes BR DR for 15s is better then Guardian one but how many Guardian has lets look that Saber Ward 12 s (%50 def %25 DR - 180s CD), Warding Call 10s (%40 DR 150s CD), Enure 15s - %5 DR talented (nice buffer for the healer - 60s CD), Focused Defende h2f nough said (120s CD ), Guardian Slash 20s %3DR (20s CD), Reflect. As you see in most critical 60s of a fight a Guardian tank will have some sort of a DR and some other useful CDs and godly AOE mez which will neutralize every hard switch (I hate playing against teams with 3 Knights/Warriors). What Shadow has 15s BR %25 DR on 120s CD, Deflection 12s %50 Def (120s CD which fails more often it defend something) and Resilience 5s immunity (38s ish CD) and don't tell me Shadow Protection first of all nobody in competive arenas spec to it (Arena spec is 23/21/2 for low slash which is much better 4s stun on 15s CD then crapy spike 2s 20s CD then AOE damage reduction and Maul to burst) and every time other team hard switch you will be stunned so forget about refreshing Shadow Protection. Bioware statistics says who is the better Arena tank and you are objective enough you can find the reasons above. Your 3.7k ticks sound like a Guardian dps, not a tank. Looking at my Guardian (rough mix of 180 and Underworld gear, which means even more healing than in PvP), I get 1728 ticks according to my tool tip. This jumps up to only 2609 on a crit, (with only an 18.35% chance of that). After the loss of Strength and Power switching to PvP gear, 1500 ticks aren't so uncommon. Guardian tanks do not get the DR on Enure. That's a Vigilance talent. If 26k healing (if all 10 hits crit) can heal you to full, you're really lacking on the HP as a tank. You're looking at an average of ~19k healing anyway, as a tank, and even less than that in PvP gear. Guardian Slash isn't a defensive cooldown at all. It's an ability that gives a passive survivability bonus. I'm not sure how you think Deflection fails more or less often than Saber Ward, they're both a 50% chance. You seem to know a bit about PvP, but you really don't seem to understand how some abilities work. If I recall, the difference in win percentages were around a static 3% (~47% vs ~50%) A 5% difference between the two isn't a massive red light saying: "this class is bad." And when did I even say that Shadows had better PvP cooldowns or that they were the better tank in PvP? I only said they were better at taking dot damage. Which they are. Edited August 27, 2014 by Aelanis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts