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Whats the point?


yobear's Avatar


yobear
01.23.2020 , 01:05 PM | #1
What is the point of hardmode OPs? Or anything passed VET FPs? You can accomplish BIS gear by grinding VET for tech frags. Why would you not have anything worth while to be gained clearing the hardest content in the game? Correct me if any of this is wrong, but what i've been told is the best gear for you is the tech frag gear and you don't get anything special from the hardest difficulty OP. Why have it in the game then? How else are you supposed to get 8+ people dedicated enough to spend hours wiping and progressing if not for the better gear that generally looks much better than the casual gear you get from farming easy instances...

This seems to be a really odd model to shape your game off of. How are you supposed to hold someones attention longer than a week when thats all the time you need to get completely BIS across the board?

DeannaVoyager's Avatar


DeannaVoyager
01.23.2020 , 01:24 PM | #2
I'm a progression raider. I don't raid to get gear, I raid because I enjoy it. My progression team is awesome, and beating something we haven't beaten before feels great, especially if it's something we've struggled with, and wiped on a lot. First kills are special, and the longer it takes to get it, the sweeter it tastes when the cheevo pops.

Unfortunately we are running out of new things to kill, cheevos to get. We've almost downed Apex Vanguard in HM, and then all "new" content we have left is Gods NiM. After that? I don't know. Probably some mount and title farming, getting survival cheevos, swapping roles and classes etc.
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yobear's Avatar


yobear
01.23.2020 , 02:43 PM | #3
Progression raiding is what I seek,however, when you have a system that doesn't reward you for your troubles, whereas you can just spam the VET FPs, its extraordinarily hard to attempt to find or start a group for the content. As well as the drive, I love progression raiding but I also enjoy being rewarded with items other players won't have available to them because they don't raid.

Terro_Fett's Avatar


Terro_Fett
01.23.2020 , 03:35 PM | #4
I too raid primarily for the achievement of a clear, however, once you've downed a boss there are no rewards for repeat clears.

We are 5/6 HM Dxun working on Apex Vanguard, and since the first 5 bosses offer us no reward for clearing anymore, this has made those fights feel more like a chore we just want to get through as quick as we can so we can get to Apex progression. There is a reason that many guilds progressing on Apex grab lockouts from players who cleared bosses 1-5 earlier in the week, because skipping those bosses is more beneficial than re-clearing them.

In the past, raid bosses had the value of top-end gear upgrades for players, so clearing farm bosses came with long term incentive and reward, now bosses are a one-and-done affair. Once Apex is down I see no real reason to step back in to HM Dxun.

So yes, progression raiders should raid for the challenge and the achievement and not just the gear, but the truth is that it is gear that keeps raiders going into content after that initial challenge has been overcome.
Dread Master Deloth Vyrr
<Reign> - Progression Ops Leader
I will not fail, I cannot die.

Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
01.23.2020 , 03:35 PM | #5
I've been in NiM raids for most of swtor, half of it in 16m which has different challenges to raiding 8m.

Many of the operations we ever did were about loot one way or another. Even if it came down to gearing someones 5th alt vanguard we'd do the operations for it.

Sure at the start of new content there would be a period of doing it for "first" or at least appearing on a list. After that it was something you did to max your gear, unavailable through lesser content.

Once people started completing their gear sets you'd see people not turning up anymore. People who stuck around after gear completion were obviously considered more valued guild members. At any rate this is usually where guild recruitment had to be stepped up to fill in people dropping out.

Loot reasons have been comprehensively murdered. You get BiS from doing the lowest level of content with zero organisation. You don't even get unique skinned gear anymore let alone the best stat gear from Master mode.

The material rewards of endgame operations have been chucked in the trash in favour of content accessible to the least organised and skilled player that can pay a sub.

There has never been such low rewards for organising groups for the hardest PVE content. You get a cheevo and a title for the first time and then you're expected to make up your own incentive to do it again because the game has nothing for you.

Story modes are another matter. Lots of those get done for conquest because that's all you need. But that's story mode, achievable by inexperienced players picked up on fleet.
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Darkchip's Avatar


Darkchip
01.23.2020 , 04:46 PM | #6
It mainly now just comes down to what you want to do and what your friends also want to do.

I used to do ops everyday back in shadow of revan because it was what my guild used to love doing as we got not only good gear but was also a way for us to bond and just have some fun and show newer members the older nightmares to see if they are up to snuff to do the newer ops in nightmare or hardmode since the raids in shadow of revan didn't have a nightmare mode at the time.

Nowadays their really isn't a whole lot of drive to do ops beyond storymode if it is gear that drives you unless you are after the sets in duxx which honestly is quite sad and i've actually been asking myself why i still play this game if i'm not even doing the content that was super important to me anymore but again that is me i don't know you so it might be differant.

6.0 they said was going to revive the group content drought we had with a drive for ops since we didn't have newer ones for ages but as it turns out they did the opisite of that supprise supprise and now even less players are doing them since again their is no drive to do them, their is still some older shells and mounts that can only be gotten in ops so their is still that but other then that and the duxx exclusive armor sets their is no drive to do them.

Terro_Fett's Avatar


Terro_Fett
01.23.2020 , 05:32 PM | #7
IMO Bioware could have made the current system work by simply putting ilvl caps on certain content, for example they could have done something roughly like this:

Veteran FPs provide gear up to ilvl 290
Master FPs/SM Ops provide gear up to ilvl 300
Legacy HM Ops provide gear up to 304
Legacy NiM/HM Dxun provide 306

The difference in gear between people who only run FPs or SM Ops and those who do top-tier content would still be small, only 6 ilvls at most, so it would still maintain the promise that everyone can get good gear playing their way. Honestly the difference between 300 and 306 gear is functionally pretty small, but it would at least provide endgame players some level of gear incentive.
Dread Master Deloth Vyrr
<Reign> - Progression Ops Leader
I will not fail, I cannot die.

phalczen's Avatar


phalczen
01.23.2020 , 08:00 PM | #8
Did they stop dropping their exclusive mounts and timed titles? For example Helix Hyperpod or Dread Rancor?
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Terro_Fett's Avatar


Terro_Fett
01.24.2020 , 12:19 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by phalczen View Post
Did they stop dropping their exclusive mounts and timed titles? For example Helix Hyperpod or Dread Rancor?
No but most of us have all that stuff already. Rerunning old content has a super short shelf life
Dread Master Deloth Vyrr
<Reign> - Progression Ops Leader
I will not fail, I cannot die.

Opiklo's Avatar


Opiklo
01.24.2020 , 05:25 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Terro_Fett View Post
IMO Bioware could have made the current system work by simply putting ilvl caps on certain content, for example they could have done something roughly like this:

Veteran FPs provide gear up to ilvl 290
Master FPs/SM Ops provide gear up to ilvl 300
Legacy HM Ops provide gear up to 304
Legacy NiM/HM Dxun provide 306

The difference in gear between people who only run FPs or SM Ops and those who do top-tier content would still be small, only 6 ilvls at most, so it would still maintain the promise that everyone can get good gear playing their way. Honestly the difference between 300 and 306 gear is functionally pretty small, but it would at least provide endgame players some level of gear incentive.
the difference between 300 and 306 is gigantic due to the veterans edge stacks.. in old content its round about 4k dps.. which is roughly 33%.....

and if they rework that, hey need to rebalance all ops.

and i dont get the point where someone said "nowadays people prefer lockouts".. it has always been like that.
only with specific guaranteed drops, there would be any reason to do certain bosses you already killed. and thats only when someone is missing something specific.. but lets be honest, if you decide to do dxun you are already BIS so there is actually little reason to do it for gear.

theres one thing they could do to make farmig the dxun exclusive sets less annoying and that would be, if they remove the rng set drops from veteran mode and give the bosses a chance to drop a "dxun gear token", which allows you to buy a piece of your choice from a special vendor at the fleet.
the chance to drop that token should increase with every boss and should end with the Apex having a guaranteed drop of said token.

but they wont change it anyway.
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