I was just wondering if anyone knew how these scaled with each other. For instance is 1wp greater than one power, or if its the other way around.

willpower > power

power gives more dmg than willpower but willpower also gives crit

power scales .23 and will scales .20 i believe for damage, but will adds crit% as well.

 

Once you are capped on crit% and hit DR power is more benefit than will.

 

General rules are cap crit around 35% unbuffed, surge around 75% and then boost power over will, since you will gain more overall damage and cant use the crit % any further due to diminished returns.

Once you are capped on crit% and hit DR power is more benefit than will.

My god this just won't die.

 

There is no crit percentage cap. Diminishing returns on Critical Rating and Willpower are entirely independent of one another. DR on Willpower is so low that Willpower remains better than Power for any conceivable gearing level.

My god this just won't die.

 

There is no crit percentage cap. Diminishing returns on Critical Rating and Willpower are entirely independent of one another. DR on Willpower is so low that Willpower remains better than Power for any conceivable gearing level.

 

While I agree that DR on CR and WP are independent, I stacked WP until i was 30% CR unbuffed then stack power simply for the sake of a harder hit. with smug buff my crit is 35%. honestly out of 100% this isnt much diff between 35 and 40. But this is a personal decision. I'm OK with 35% crit. If anyone feels they need higher crit, by all means stack wp. but for raw damage, power is where its at (even if its ever so slightly)

While I agree that DR on CR and WP are independent, I stacked WP until i was 30% CR unbuffed then stack power simply for the sake of a harder hit. with smug buff my crit is 35%. honestly out of 100% this isnt much diff between 35 and 40. But this is a personal decision. I'm OK with 35% crit. If anyone feels they need higher crit, by all means stack wp. but for raw damage, power is where its at (even if its ever so slightly)

Yes, it's a personal decision. In this case, your personal decision to do less damage.

 

Willpower will increase your DPS by more than Power, point for point. This is a mathematically quantifiable fact. It's not about how much crit you feel is 'enough', it's simply that more crit increases your DPS, just as more bonus damage increases your DPS. The crit added by Willpower outweighs the slightly higher bonus damage from Power in net terms.

Yes, it's a personal decision. In this case, your personal decision to do less damage.

 

Willpower will increase your DPS by more than Power, point for point. This is a mathematically quantifiable fact. It's not about how much crit you feel is 'enough', it's simply that more crit increases your DPS, just as more bonus damage increases your DPS. The crit added by Willpower outweighs the slightly higher bonus damage from Power in net terms.

 

per nish77

Here are some stats:

Willpower Breakdown: 1 Willpower =
0.214286 Melee Damage
0.2 Melee Damage Bonus
0.015% Melee Crit Chance
0.2 Force Damage Bonus
0.014286 Force Crit Chance

(Notice NO HEALING POWER)

Power Breakdown: 1 Power =
0.220779 Melee Damage
0.245455 Melee Damage Bonus
0.227273 Force Bonus Damage
0.17272 Force Healing Bonus

This does not take into account the crit DR from willpower. Although, it doesn't start to taper off for quite a while... getting the amount of crit from it to hit willpower's crit dr is very very large. Still, is it worth it to scale crit up to 40 percent or stack power for spellpower? A quick and easy dummy test showed stacking 'power' over 'crit' which gives much more 'crit percentage' gave higher damage when crit was around 30 percent.

*http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1081494-sage-sorceror-willpower-vs-power

 

Using that math, we take an Advanced Resolve Augment 22 vs Advanced Overkill Augment 22

+18 WP =

3.86 Melee Damage

3.6 Melee Bonus

.27 Crit

3.6 Force Bonus Damage

.257 Force Crit

 

+18 Power =

3.97 Melee Damage

4.42 Melee Damage Bonus

4.1 Force Damage Bonus

3.11 Force Healing Bonus

 

You wanted quantifiable facts? BAM! So, like I said earlier, for melee, stack wp until you're at a comfy crit level then stack power for harder hits. for healers, same thing! ZOMG MATH IS CrRrRrAaAAaAaAAAzZZZZZzzZZZZYYYyyyyYYYYYyy!!!!!!!!

Edited July 18, 2012 by leijae

2 things to consider.

 

1. You need to add in the damage .015 crit does.

2. Additionally those numbers are done without the benefit of the consular buff which adds 5% more WP per point.

 

If you take into acount both those statements WP provides more DPS than Power. I utlize simulationcraft to show me the scaling of each stat and so far with full campaign/BH gear fully optimized and augmented(WP) WP still has a gain over power even at those levels. Admittedtly its getting close since I am hitting WP crit DR but WP is still edging out power.

 

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/Thread-SWTOR-formula-list

This site has a breakdown of the stats and also hosts simulationcraft.

Here is a Healing Sage build on AskMrRobot in Black Hole / Campaign gear with 14 Resolve Augments:

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/26039ede-747a-4008-8bd3-69c72e9693de

 

2202 willpower

946 bonus damage

720 bonus healing

37.94% crit

75.82% surge

 

Here is that same Healing Sage with 14 Overkill Augments instead

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/b3a47f2b-2b54-4d1a-8c97-0bd7a7501cdc

 

1922 willpower

948 bonus damage

724 bonus healing

36.64% crit

75.82% surge

 

Losing 1.3% critical for a measly +4 bonus healing? Nopers.

 

Willpower > Power

Same gear, same buffs, same skills. The only difference is the augment in each piece of gear.

 

Shadow with Overkill Augments

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/84608888-d448-45cd-bf45-67773af6a54b

 

Primary

Strength105.0

Presence225.0

Aim52.5

Cunning52.5

Endurance1757.0

Willpower1551.9

Secondary

Power596.0

Accuracy399.0

Alacrity0.0

Crit429.0

Surge171.0

Defense0.0

Shield0.0

Absorb0.0

Melee

Damage (Pri)857.5 - 1052.5

Bonus Damage468.5

Accuracy101.66%

Critical Chance30.43%

Critical Multiplier69.54%

Force

Bonus Damage746.0

Accuracy111.66%

Critical Chance29.59%

Critical Multiplier69.54%

Force Regen Rate8.0 / s

Activation Speed

 

Shadow with Resolve Augments

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/9429336e-5c3e-42a5-bc12-2795732bb3d4

 

Primary

Strength105.0

Presence225.0

Aim52.5

Cunning52.5

Endurance1757.0

Willpower1778.7

Secondary

Power380.0

Accuracy399.0

Alacrity0.0

Crit429.0

Surge171.0

Defense0.0

Shield0.0

Absorb0.0

Melee

Damage (Pri)853.1 - 1048.1

Bonus Damage464.1

Accuracy101.66%

Critical Chance31.61%

Critical Multiplier69.54%

Force

Bonus Damage741.7

Accuracy111.66%

Critical Chance30.76%

Critical Multiplier69.54%

Force Regen Rate8.0 / s

Activation Speed

 

Notice the difference in damage (melee and force) vs the difference in critical chance (barely over 1.1%, hell I'll even round it up to 1.2 for you) and you're trying to tell me that WP > P on the basis to "consider the damage crit puts out" I'm not concerned with 1%. Give me a break...

Edited July 18, 2012 by leijae

Do you believe that an additional 0.3% damage (1052 damage - 1048 damage / 1052 damage) is preferable to +1.2% crit? Edited July 18, 2012 by JeffKretz

I did the math on what that 1% gives you.

 

(1048.1 * .3161 * .695) + 1048.1 = 1278.25656495 WP augments(max damage range)

(1052.5 * .3043 * .695) +1052.5 = 1275.09164625 Power augments(max damage range)

 

(853.1 * .3161 * .695) + 853.1 =1040.51711245 WP augments(min damage range)

(857.5 *.3043 *.695) + 857.5 = 1038.85138875 Power augments(min damage range)

 

The numbers are close but WP gives more DPS than Power, and the diffrence gets bigger in lowered gear levels.

 

The numbers at these gear levels are basically the same but if you have to pick one over the other WP wins, 3 damage more is still 3 damage more.

 

Either way your not gimping yourself by picking one over the other, if your a fresh 50 with greens WP will give you a bit more edge if your in full 61 gear it doesn't really make a diffrence which one you pick. I personally like seeing my WP over 2100.

Edited July 18, 2012 by ICSWOR

I don't expect everyone to know the ins and outs of theorycrafting. But when someone else has done the math, looked at the game files, run simulations and parsed the numbers, you really should stop pretending you know more than they do. Daelia and Aurojiin have definitively shown that Willpower gives you more damage point for point than Power at least through gear levels that would give you willpower in the 9,000 range, which is about quadruple what you could achieve right now. This has been discussed in probably a dozen threads in the last month alone. Read up on it before you speak definitively.

 

If you want to ignore the numbers, fine. Stack power. It's not going to gimp you so that you can't run ops. You might not even notice much of a difference. But please stop pretending the numbers back your point. They don't.

^^

 

Exactly. The posts already made on the subject are very very clear.

Notice the difference in damage (melee and force) vs the difference in critical chance (barely over 1.1%, hell I'll even round it up to 1.2 for you) and you're trying to tell me that WP > P on the basis to "consider the damage crit puts out" I'm not concerned with 1%. Give me a break...

Absolutely and completely. I'm not going to grind over the math on this one; you've been proven wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt, both by elementary math and by extensive simulations, as others have pointed out.

 

What I do want to address is this strange mentality that crit chance becomes unimportant at some arbitrary point. We don't stop stacking crit because the value of crit chance's effects lessens, we stop because of the diminishing returns on the underlying stats that grant crit chance. By your logic, you shouldn't have any crit chance. If 1% isn't important, why aren't you at 29% instead of 30%? 28% instead of 29%? Ad infinitum. The reason you switch from Critical Rating to Power is because eventually Crit Rating no longer returns enough crit chance to outweigh the net effect on DPS from Power, not because crit chance has become less valuable at 30% for some magical reason.

 

Which brings us to Willpower. As a very elementary analysis, with a 75% multiplier, going from 30% to 31% crit chance raises the expected value of base damage from 1.225 to 1.2325. It doesn't take much to realise that with any attacks hitting for non-trivial amounts, this is going to outweigh the 4-5 extra bonus damage.

Yes, it's a personal decision. In this case, your personal decision to do less damage.

 

Willpower will increase your DPS by more than Power, point for point. This is a mathematically quantifiable fact. It's not about how much crit you feel is 'enough', it's simply that more crit increases your DPS, just as more bonus damage increases your DPS. The crit added by Willpower outweighs the slightly higher bonus damage from Power in net terms.

 

Look, there isn't really a right or a wrong to it. Yes, willpower will give you more crit, but there are advantages to the greater power. If you need to burst something down reliably with a few casts then +power is better than the extra crit. Longer term the more +crit from Willpower works out better, but unfortunately in PVE or PvP you don't just spam a target dummy for 5 mins, so the +Power can be an advantage when you have to nuke something quick.

The pvp aspect of dps damage demands for shadows to have a high and fast burst. A 1v1 battle doesn't last longer than a min unless you're 2 tanks or 2 healers going at it. So, I consistently hit for about 4700k-5200 in pvp with 3 different attacks. I get those numbers from stacking power. They may not be the highest in the game, but they're not that bad. I HAVE stacked willpower and did not get the same results (4500-5000). You're theory is great. But in all practicality it's worthless in PvP. However, I will give you this. in PvE, where battles last much longer, you're probably right to stack willpower as overtime you'll get the higher dps. So, I do concede in that sense. But, you won't win me over concerning PvP.

Do you believe that an additional 0.3% damage (1052 damage - 1048 damage / 1052 damage) is preferable to +1.2% crit?

leijae, you still didn't answer my question.

The pvp aspect of dps damage demands for shadows to have a high and fast burst. A 1v1 battle doesn't last longer than a min unless you're 2 tanks or 2 healers going at it. So, I consistently hit for about 4700k-5200 in pvp with 3 different attacks. I get those numbers from stacking power. They may not be the highest in the game, but they're not that bad. I HAVE stacked willpower and did not get the same results (4500-5000). You're theory is great. But in all practicality it's worthless in PvP. However, I will give you this. in PvE, where battles last much longer, you're probably right to stack willpower as overtime you'll get the higher dps. So, I do concede in that sense. But, you won't win me over concerning PvP.

 

The problem is you're overestimating the difference damage. Your crits don't hit 200 damage harder just from switching willpower augments to power augments.

 

You saw the math earlier on the change in melee damage and force damage on the character sheets and how small it is. Look up your abilities and find the coefficient to multiply that difference by. Even pre-mitigation, the difference isn't anywhere near 200 damage.

The pvp aspect of dps damage demands for shadows to have a high and fast burst. A 1v1 battle doesn't last longer than a min unless you're 2 tanks or 2 healers going at it. So, I consistently hit for about 4700k-5200 in pvp with 3 different attacks. I get those numbers from stacking power. They may not be the highest in the game, but they're not that bad. I HAVE stacked willpower and did not get the same results (4500-5000). You're theory is great. But in all practicality it's worthless in PvP. However, I will give you this. in PvE, where battles last much longer, you're probably right to stack willpower as overtime you'll get the higher dps. So, I do concede in that sense. But, you won't win me over concerning PvP.

 

Even on a 1 min fight the WP will net you more damage, throwing out random numbers does not constitute proof. Test it out on a dummy, do a 20 second run then a min run. Do this multple times and post those numbers. You will see that WP will win the majority of the time. Sure there will be some runs where power will win but there will be other cases where WP will just utterly dominate, all do to rng, but WP will win out in the end over many fights even short duration fights.

 

To win consistently fight after fight, wz to wz the crit from WP will win out. Its not theory its hard data with parses to back it up that has demonstrated WP is better than power.

 

Its not about winning someone over, everyone can decide what they want. Its about presenting facts, not feelings or intuition. Show the facts and each individual can make thier own decision. Are their scenarios where power is better? Could be. Show the data, we are constantly learning and adapting, by presenting the data we learn and adjust. Just so far all the examples presented have shown WP wins.

Edited July 19, 2012 by ICSWOR
misspelling

But, you won't win me over concerning PvP.

M'kay. You enjoy that 4 additional bonus damage that's massively improving your burst and changing the outcome of all your PVP engagements.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Aurojiin

Aurojiin > Chuck Norris

I just wish I could roundhouse kick people through the internet.

after running a couple of tests through MOX, I did a couple of training dummy exercises in power augments and a few in wp augments. I can upload the combat log when i get home this afternoon, and i can upload the video to youtube. my results showed that the power augments gave me a slightly higher dps, when i ran the same tests on a pve dummy for the exact same about of time (45 seconds each) the willpower came out on top. i know you're all a bunch of nei saying ninnies so, I WILL upload the log sometime after dinner.