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Stasie's Galactic Starfighter Guide (Ships, Components, Crew, Tips)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
Stasie's Galactic Starfighter Guide (Ships, Components, Crew, Tips)
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Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
04.11.2014 , 02:06 PM | #141
Quote: Originally Posted by TrinityLyre View Post
I'm going to run with this on a few ships for a while to see how it feels. I haven't really ever felt the need for Range Capacitor but I'm willing to give it a run on a few of my ships to see if it introduces anything new (and useful) to gameplay.
Actually, I did a bit of maths, and at 3 000m without accounting enemy evasion (neither pinpointing) and without any tracking penalty (I know there are many conditions), BLC's improvement is worth 9.4% by adding both raw power gain and accuracy gain (+5.4% guaranteed).

Open spoiler for the math
Spoiler

But it has to be noted that this is true for BLC only, and I used this cannon because I knew it was the one who would get the biggest damage improvement from Range Capacitor. Every other laser cannon will have a lower improvement at 3000m.
(Won't post the math but for HLC, which is the one with the least improvment at 3000m, it is only +1.2%)

Kuciwalker's Avatar


Kuciwalker
04.11.2014 , 02:41 PM | #142
Quote: Originally Posted by Altheran View Post
Actually, I did a bit of maths, and at 3 000m without accounting enemy evasion (neither pinpointing) and without any tracking penalty (I know there are many conditions), BLC's improvement is worth 9.4% by adding both raw power gain and accuracy gain (+5.4% guaranteed).

Open spoiler for the math
Spoiler

But it has to be noted that this is true for BLC only, and I used this cannon because I knew it was the one who would get the biggest damage improvement from Range Capacitor. Every other laser cannon will have a lower improvement at 3000m.
(Won't post the math but for HLC, which is the one with the least improvment at 3000m, it is only +1.2%)
Note that this is also highly sensitive to the range you perform the comparison at. For BLC under your conditions at 3000m you get a 5.4% damage increase; at 2000m, the damage increase is only 3%; at 1000m, 1.3%.

thespis's Avatar


thespis
04.11.2014 , 03:00 PM | #143
Quote: Originally Posted by Kuciwalker View Post
Note that this is also highly sensitive to the range you perform the comparison at. For BLC under your conditions at 3000m you get a 5.4% damage increase; at 2000m, the damage increase is only 3%; at 1000m, 1.3%.
So, for those of us with severe discalculia (people that can do math at all AMAZE me!), are you saying that the Burst + Range Capacitor gives the most bang for the buck?
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Kuciwalker's Avatar


Kuciwalker
04.11.2014 , 03:05 PM | #144
Quote: Originally Posted by thespis View Post
So, for those of us with severe discalculia (y'all that can do math at all AMAZE me!), are you saying that the Burst + Range Capacitor gives the most bang for the buck?
I personally run Burst + Range. However, the damage increase is highly variable and in almost all circumstances you will get less of a boost than from Damage Capacitor. However, in many circumstances the damage increase is still pretty good. That "pretty good" combined with having an extra 400m of maximum range is, IMO, a little bit better than the "very good" of Damage Capacitor.

IOW YMMV

Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
04.11.2014 , 03:27 PM | #145
Quote: Originally Posted by Kuciwalker View Post
Note that this is also highly sensitive to the range you perform the comparison at. For BLC under your conditions at 3000m you get a 5.4% damage increase; at 2000m, the damage increase is only 3%; at 1000m, 1.3%.
Yeah, there are so many conditions that going for its raw damage effect is a bit foolish. (And that's actually a BLC thing, as other weapons' damage increase much less dramatically)

Where it will usually have the most effect, is on accuracy, especially on short range cannons which tend to suffer from rather terrible base accuracy (and tend to have more issues to keep one target dead center of the firing arc).
That may not be huge, but noticable enough to be worth a shot... and it may actually debunk the idea that Range Capacitor is only for weapons that already have a long range.

thespis's Avatar


thespis
04.11.2014 , 03:29 PM | #146
I just tried it out and WOW I came in 2nd place with 12 kills! Thanks!

Quote: Originally Posted by Kuciwalker View Post
I personally run Burst + Range. However, the damage increase is highly variable and in almost all circumstances you will get less of a boost than from Damage Capacitor. However, in many circumstances the damage increase is still pretty good. That "pretty good" combined with having an extra 400m of maximum range is, IMO, a little bit better than the "very good" of Damage Capacitor.

IOW YMMV
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TrinityLyre's Avatar


TrinityLyre
04.12.2014 , 02:46 PM | #147
Quote: Originally Posted by Altheran View Post
Actually, I did a bit of maths, and at 3 000m without accounting enemy evasion (neither pinpointing) and without any tracking penalty (I know there are many conditions), BLC's improvement is worth 9.4% by adding both raw power gain and accuracy gain (+5.4% guaranteed).


So, for BLC at 3000m, there's a guaranteed +5.4% improvement when comparing hits' power, and +9.43% in average on a target dead center without evasion.

(Won't post the math but for HLC, which is the one with the least improvment at 3000m, it is only +1.2%)
Quote: Originally Posted by Kuciwalker View Post
Note that this is also highly sensitive to the range you perform the comparison at. For BLC under your conditions at 3000m you get a 5.4% damage increase; at 2000m, the damage increase is only 3%; at 1000m, 1.3%.
This is actually really useful info! I'll have to watch more often to see what kind of distance I regularly fall into with BLC.

Quote: Originally Posted by Altheran View Post
That may not be huge, but noticable enough to be worth a shot... and it may actually debunk the idea that Range Capacitor is only for weapons that already have a long range.
If the damage increase is so low with HLC I'm not likely to use it, despite the sizable increase in range. I just don't feel like I need that kind of range. Adding to that, I'd be trading frequency capacitor which definitely makes Heavies more fun to use and gives them a better "feel" (IMO).
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Verain's Avatar


Verain
04.12.2014 , 07:20 PM | #148
I am getting a bit cross about the variable claims regarding ranged capacitor. The devs have told us that the damage is extrapolated linearly, and so is the accuracy, between the three given points. We know that each range increment is extended by 10% with ranged capacitor.

So here's for burst laser. This will be a long post, and I'll go through the math. You can skip to the bottom to see the results at many ranges, or read along and we'll go through the average case, and then my reasoning for why that isn't really the picture you need as a pilot.

Ready? Here we go!

Baseline, you begin at 500 with 933 dps and 115 accuracy, 117 with the talent (the other talents don't matter in the compare- accuracy has to be counted though, as it actually isn't just a multiplier like the others). These values are technically accurate BELOW 500m though- but I think we all agree such ranges can be funky. In any event, from 0-500m, you have:
dps = 933
accu = 115
(117 with talent).

From 500 to 3000m, you use these lines:
dps = 994.6 - 0.1232 * R
That is valid from 500 to 3000, a line from 933 to 625. Over this period, your accuracy reduces:
Accu = 121 -0.012 * R
(add +2 to this if you have the talent)
From 115 to 85.

Then, you drop off to max range. From 3000m to 4000m, you use these lines:
dps = 1072 - 0.149 * R
That is valid from 3000 to 4000, a line from 625 to 476. Over this period, your accuracy reduces:
Accu = 130 -0.015 * R
(add +2 to this if you have the talent)
From 85 to 70.


So, what's the average dps of burst laser cannon? And is that a good metric? You obviously don't spend much time at 150m, or even 520m. Your dps at 10,000km is 0. Should we say that the average dps is 0 because most ranges are too far to shoot?

We can calculate it, of course. But what it MEANS is a bit different.

Over the 4000m that BLC is effective at, we simply need to average as follows (the average of a line over an interval is the point it has in the center of that interval).
500/4000 * [933]
2500/4000 * [779]
1000/4000 * [550.5]

This gives an average damage value of burst laser cannon over 0 to 4000m of 741.125. If we also include values up to 4400m (for the last 400m we have 0 damage, of course), then we get 673.75.


Frequency capacitor multiplies the dps by 1.15. Damage capacitor multiplies it by 1.1. The difference between these two is quickly figured out, and not just by using dps. But what does range do?
Ranged capacitor changes short range from 0-500m to 0-550m. It changes medium range from 500m to 3000m to 550m to 3300m. It changes long range from 3000m to 4000m to 3300m to 4400m. This changes the formulas too.

You have 933 from 0-550m. You have dps = 994.6 - 0.112 * R from 550-3300m. You have dps = 1072 - 0.1354 * R from 3300m to 4400m. Your accuracy formulas change to 123-0.01091*R and 132-0.013636*R.

So over the ORIGINAL value- from 0 to 4000m- we calculate as follows:
550/4000 * [933]
2750/4000 * [779]
700/4000 * [550.5]

This gives us on average dps of 760- around 2.5% more than no capacitor, not counting the accuracy boost. If we instead look at it over the actual range it shoots (4400) versus the original one at that range (which did 0 from 4000-4400), we have an average of 741, right about 10% average dps gained (remember this assumes you are in both cases equally likely to shoot a shot at any range up to and including 4400m).

So this is why we see such strange numbers over many posters, I'm betting- if you look at your gain over the range that the no-cap shoots at (0-4000), you see a pre-accuracy gain of 2.5%. If you look at your gain over the range that BOTH can fire (0-4400), you see a pre-accuracy gain of 10%! That difference is large.







What does all this mean? Unlike the math, the in game meaning is not as clear. You aren't equally likely to shoot at 600m as 2000m as 4200m. If you only ever made shots at 800m, you could figure this out pretty easily, but this average value assumes you are just as likely to make a shot at 510 as 2000 as 3900. I'm pretty sure that most of my shots are not at 500 or 4000m. Also, accuracy dorks this up quite a bit- a small accuracy boost can be worth quite a bit, depending- I mean, if your chance to hit is 5%, an extra 5% to hit is a 100% damage boost. The problem is, if your chance to hit is 5%, you aren't doing much damage at all.


The fix:
Lets assume the existence of an "evasive target". This target has a 30% net evasion versus you. We'll also assume the existence of a "dumb target" where we neglect the accuracy. Further, we'll talk about a "highly evasive target", likely one off center, with 50% net evasion versus you. If your target has much more than that net evasion, you probably have some other things going on. I'll also assume you have the 2% accuracy talent, because anyone who matters does for almost all their games. The net value includes, for instance, your crew passive, their crew passive, whatever- this is the value after the subtraction of all that. If you don't have the crew passive you are already immune to math, and I suggest you take rapid fire laser because more shots are better.

I'm still using 933 as the base, of course. If you want to take damage talents or whatever into account, simply plug in your number- the percentage increase over base is what we want, as we can easily compare that to damage cap or frequency cap.


At 400m, your default is 933 dps versus a dumb target with either capacitor. It's .87 * 933 = 812 versus an evasive target, and .67 * 933 = 625 versus a highly evasive target. Ranged capacitor boosts your damage by 0% at 400m versus all targets.

At 800m, your default is 896 dps versus a dumb target with no cap. It's .834 * 896 = 747 versus an evasive target with no cap, and 568 versus a highly evasive target with no cap. Your default with a ranged cap is 905 dps versus a dumb target. It's .843 * 905 = 763 dps versus an evasive target, and .643 * 905 = 582 versus a highly evasive target. Ranged capacitor boosts your damage at 800m by 1% versus a dumb target, 2% versus an evasive target, and 2.5% versus a highly evasive target.

I'm not going to type out all those words. But I will give you this table of increases:

Range: Percent increases versus net evasion: 0% 30% 50%
400m: 0 / 0 / 0
800m: 1 / 2 / 2.4
1200m: 1.6 / 3.3 / 3.9
1600m: 2.2 / 4.7 / 5.6
2000m: 4.0 / 6.3 / 7.6
2400m: 6.7 / 8.1 / 10
2800m: 8.4 / 10 / 13
3200m: 12 / 15 / 20
3400m: 14 / 18 / 24
3600m: 16 / 20 / 28
4000m: 20 / 26 / 40
4400m: INFINITEH

It takes awhile, but once the accuracy falls below 100% versus a dumb target (one with no net evasion versus you), the range starts helping a bit in that direction too.

You can see from this that ranged absolutely DOMINATES the 10% and 15% options from the other caps at many values of ranged and evasion. Do you spend more of your time at those ranges, and versus those targets? And this is also not counting the extra boost you get when it comes to shooting mines and other strategic targets that Armonddd brought up, many of which have a 3500 trigger radius- the capacitor about doubles the ranges from which you can actually shoot it down (3510 to 3990 to 3510 to 4390).

But of course, when you are close, the boosts are trivial, even versus evasive targets. You don't beat damage cap until around 3000m versus targets with no evasion, and even the high evasion scout type build is around 2800m as a tie. Off target shots gain value at around 2400.

Verain's Avatar


Verain
04.12.2014 , 07:47 PM | #149
Actually, looking at this table leads me to believe we might get people going range cap who might not be the optimal target group for that. Here's the table:


Range: Percent increases versus net evasion: 0% 30% 50%
400m: 0 / 0 / 0
800m: 1 / 2 / 2.4
1200m: 1.6 / 3.3 / 3.9
1600m: 2.2 / 4.7 / 5.6
2000m: 4.0 / 6.3 / 7.6
2400m: 6.7 / 8.1 / 10
2800m: 8.4 / 10 / 13
3200m: 12 / 15 / 20
3400m: 14 / 18 / 24
3600m: 16 / 20 / 28
4000m: 20 / 26 / 40
4400m: INFINITEH


But what was left out is the actual damages involved here to get these percents.

Here's for the "evasive target" one (the middle column above). On the left will be the dps with no cap, on the right, the dps with the ranged cap.

800m 747 / 762 (2% increase)
1600m 588 / 615 (4.7% increase)
2000m 516 / 548 (6.3% increase)
2400m 448 / 485 (8% increase)
2800m 385 / 425 (10% increase)
3200m 321 / 369 (15% increase)
4000m 200 / 251 (26% increase)

See how the GOOD numbers- the ones that top the damage capacitor- are happening when the total dps you are doing is totally crap compared to what you were hoping for? For instance, the 10% mark is 2800 here with the 30% net evade target. At that point, you are already dealing HALF DAMAGE! Taking that to 55% of the damage you would do at closer ranges is nice, but you are still not really rocking the charts at that range.



This isn't to say it's a bad call- simply don't be deceived by the large percentages, as they all kick into effect when your damage is generally poor, and don't help as much as the other options when you are in a good position- but they really blow the other options away if you are having to take some of the inopportune shots- that is to say, shots versus targets not quite dead center with a moderate amount of evasion and at ranges that are more like 2k and less like 1k.

Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
04.13.2014 , 08:09 AM | #150
Yeah it seems like big numbers, but they're mostly improved chances, and not much improved potential like Damage or Frequency capacitors.

And those big numbers are true only for BLC because of its incredible variation of damage and accuracy...

Ah, if only the damage profiles of weapons were a bit more normalized, and if the base accuracy couldn't fall this low...
Sorry, I'm going off-topic.

Basically, Range Capacitor remains a QoL capacitor, unlike others which are buffing capacitors, and so it will never allow to do the biggest "oomph"