POLL

PART: 3 (Over 2000 posts)

I want to create this poll to try and get a sensus on combat logs and the importance of real logs along with DPS meters, threat meters and the like. Please keep this discussion civil. Below is what I wrote in the UI thread from the guild summit.

Understand, currently the new logs are only accessable outside of the game and only display information that has happened to you. (ie the "what happened to me" button in WoW's combat log). DO NOT VOTE if you do not understand combat logs, what kind of combat logs they are implementing (only self, a lot of people do not understand this as I have read from answers to other threads), or if you intend to troll.

NOTE:

The main reason I want combat logs is because I am pro-encounters with more mechanics that require on-the-fly analyzing as opposed to encounters with less mechanics with trial and error being the method of progression.

BEFORE YOU POST ABOUT PERFORMANCE GAUGING AND FEAR OF PREREQUSITE GROUPING, understand that BioWare has confirmed that they will implement DPS and THREAT meters soon but not in 1.2. Community created interface applications (ie addons) will also be implemented further down the road. The debate for pro-comprehensive on-the-fly combat logs has NOTHING to do with allowing for performance gauge as those things will happen currently and/or based on the aforementioned. Story mode and permanent exclusion of combat macros are BioWare's stance on lowering the barrier for combat entry.

Please reevaluate your decision if it is solely based on that premise.

Combat logs serve important for the future of DPS meters, threat meters and all around important additions that will help improve the overall performance of players, knowledge of players and most importantly CONTROL of your character.

Also understand that it will be MORE DIFFICULT for BioWare to implement TRULY difficult content with more engaging mechanics without the use of combat logs and logging for improvement.

PLEASE KEEP IN MIND. Combat logs are used for a plethora of other things besides seeing what someone did wrong. People may misuse combat logs just like they may misuse any other feature a game may provide. This is not a valid argument against the use of combat logs as the benefits severely outweigh the disadvantages. BioWare has created a difficulty setting separate from progression, gearing up and the 'hard core'. It is called STORY MODE. With combat log implemented, no one in this mode will be using it to critique or criticize other playersdue to the demographic within. There is NO NEED for someone who takes the game seriously to do STORY MODE. Therefore, there is no need to take something away from the players of HARD MODE and NIGHTMARE MODE. You are asking BioWare to penalize a certain playstyle to support your own when there is an entirely separate model created just for you that will avoid everything you are afraid of.

BioWare, the changes to 1.2 have me very excited, but your stance on combat logs, threat meters and DPS meters are incredible skewed. A lot of people at the event seem to be in awe about the presence of developers and are not shooting it straight with you.

 

Meters and logs are INCREDIBLE important for leading. You state you do not want people to be judged by this statement, but it directly contradicts your whole philosophy on having separate difficulty levels. You created story mode for those who should not be judged by skills or numbers, but the other difficulties as you stated ARE FOR PROGRESSION. These tools are absolutely DETRIMENTAL to progressing at an incredibly competitive level. Not to mention, not only does logs help others judge another player, but it also allows us to deduce what went wrong. How do you expect a raid leader to try to advance his guild synergy and execution without being able to see what everyone is doing.

 

It is like asking a baseball captain to direct a team to the championship but only allowing him to see himself play ball. Other MMOs have been incredible successful and have these tools. There is absolutely not reason for you to exclude this. Unless you are aiming for casuals to be competing at end game (which is ridiculous), this game will be laughable at any serious competitive level. Any person I have spoken to (verbally) who is again traditional combat logs and meters is extremely arrogant, inexperienced and exaggerates his performance displaying lack of assumption about the genre and classes as a whole (ie thinking his class does most damage).

 

Please reevaluate your stance on combat logs, meters and addons for that matter.

Combat Logs are NOT equal to DPS meters or THREAT meters. If you are going to post in here disputing you do NOT want Combat Logs because you are afraid of being judged based on performance or DPS, reevaluate you argument and consider the fact that BioWare has CONFIRMED they will be implementing both DPS meters and THREAT meters in the near future. Posting this response will only allow us to assume you have NO IDEA what the true nature of combat logs are and/or your knowledge of Combat Logs has been skewed based on the views and posts of others.

Here is the DPS meter and THREAT meter confirmation from the Guild Summit:

: Threat meters, dps meters – are they coming? what is bioware’s stance? A: we want reliance on in-game visual cues but that is not we say we won’t give you dps and threat meters. We will have them in but just not in 1.2. We you to have control over what other see about your character – we went for the middle ground – in 1.2 you will be able to use a simple input in the chat system to see what defeated you. we also have a very detailed combat log you can write to your disk – someone enterprising can use it for their guild to see their performance but it will be out of game (3rd party).

Source: http://dulfy.net/2012/03/05/swtor-guild-summitlive-blogging/

HONORABLE MENTIONS:

FOR COMBAT LOGS:

This is so obvious, it's painful at this point. I'm just going to have to lay it down for that vocal majority who are against combat logs because you guys are too much.

 

First off, it's very disappointing to see that in this age of information and analysis, a majority of people are against combat logs which scientifically quantify every action you perform in the game. This is invaluable on so many levels, I shouldn't even have to explain the benefits gained from such knowledge.

 

But that resistance to change, that negativity, that fear of numbers has to come from somewhere. The vocal majority who are advocating against the implementation of a public combat log are keeping this stance because of the likelihood of a negative personal (or anecdotal) experience directly related to the combat log. Whether it'd be being called out for performing poorly during an encounter or being called out due to dishing out low DPS or crappy heals across the board, that seems to be the only logical conclusion. For that vocal majority, the combat log is an impediment to their progress within the game; since they see a game as a medium simply to be used for entertainment, more complex analyses simply have no place in this game. Okay, valid argument: you want to keep the game simple and do not care about the historical, quantifiable data behind every single one of your encounters. But that, my friends, is called ignorance.

 

Now, let's investigate the opposite end of the spectrum.

 

Currently, http://www.sithwarrior.com -- all you combat log haters should head there, you might learn a thing or two about your class -- is the only website with any kind of theorycrafting and given the abysmal amount of data available to players, the folks over at SithWarrior have done an incredible job in figuring out all of the mathematical formulas behind each ability; how threat is generated beyond the vague words of Stephen Reid that "taunting automatically puts you on top of the threat table;" and created a complex and complete Excel sheet which lets you theorycraft potential builds given different sets of gear. This is amazing. You see, some people like to discover thing; they like to analyze and understand the consequences behind their actions whether it'd be in a virtual world or the real world. By vocally rallying against the implementation of a standard, public combat log, you are essentially giving the middle finger to statistical and mathematical concepts which developers use every-fricking-day to keep this game running. The irony doesn't get better than that.

 

A good example of what the community over at SithWarrior has done was to debunk the general understanding behind the Taunt mechanic. The process was excruciatingly manual and simply laughable given all of the automation available to us: a few good members of this community actively spent hours hitting Champion mobs in Tatooine and manually recorded every single ability and its related damage; every single parry/dodge/resist; and every attack and damage done by the mob. This was not done in an hour. It took days. And they still discovered the mathematical equation behind Taunting. Now imagine if those folks had a combat log, they could provide us with 100% accurate data that is not reliant on manual human entry that is prone to error. So even though they were able to come up with an equation regarding threat, it is still hypothetical, or in essence theoretical, and cannot be proven with 100% certainty. It's speculation but solid speculation.

 

Anyways, the folks advocating against a combat log fall in the same category of folks who wanted Galileo to be burned alive at the stake for claiming that the earth was round and that it revolved around the sun and not the other way around.

AGAINST COMBAT LOGS:

I read it and my point stands.

 

They don't have logs and they have found other ways to analyze the data and by their own admission 'figure stuff out'. That's how all of these games used to be before people started requiring the Devs to tell them exactly what is happening in painful detail.

 

Back in the early days of these games (I remember EQ1 specifically) they didn't give you jack for numbers AND the Devs stood firm telling the player community that supplying that information would just turn it into a math game. They eventually broke down and provided that information.. and guess what? They were 100 percent correct on what would happen.

 

You don't NEED to know everything that is happening to effectively play the game. You aren't a better player because you know it than anyone else that doesn't know it - you are better informed but you aren't really 'playing' the game anymore anyway... you are playing the numbers.

DEVELOPER RESPONSES:

None

Because the previous thread has exceeded our threshold for thread length, we've started this new thread for the community to continue discussing the topic.

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Thank you!

I support the method BioWare has put forth. Combat logs should remain private and out-of-game.

It would be nice if they made it a little more convenient than giving me an out of game text file.

That is the whole topic in a nutshell, "it would be nice if they made it more convenient". The extra combat log functionality and convenience is not needed, "it would be nice". A majority of the players and the developers realize that making it easier to access realtime would increase behavior they have a problem with and would like to see avoided. No "need". Just preference v. preference and they picked their philosophy alongside the majority of their players with an opinion on it over the minority opinion of "it would be nice if they made it more convenient".

real-time combat logs and combat metrics wouldn't change anything for people that wouldn't be bothered to use them.

By their simple inclusion, some players would take such logs as an endorsement to play the game by the numbers and cause others to do so as well. "Why did they give them to us, if we weren't supposed to worry about DPS?" Likely, they'd feel entitled to judge others and demand statistically optimized play of all. To some extent, having the game embrace parsing and sharing everyones data lends an air of authority to those who would do the judging. In all honesty, I think such an endorsement and authority supporting metrics-driven play is as much what some players wanted as the data. I can't say for certain, but it seems this is alot of the reason BioWare chose to give us logs they way they have.

"PLEASE VOTE: Give us Real Combat Logs" should not use the word REAL. You clearly define combat logs in a very specific way that meets your strict definition.

Combat logs cover much more than what you want them to be such that the logs comming out with 1.2 are also REAL. And using that definition of combat logs I support it.

I support the method BioWare has put forth. Combat logs should remain private and out-of-game.

 

 

 

That is the whole topic in a nutshell, "it would be nice if they made it more convenient". The extra combat log functionality and convenience is not needed, "it would be nice". A majority of the players and the developers realize that making it easier to access realtime would increase behavior they have a problem with and would like to see avoided. No "need". Just preference v. preference and they picked their philosophy alongside the majority of their players with an opinion on it over the minority opinion of "it would be nice if they made it more convenient".

When Bioware gives us parsable combat logs, will you be using them?

Boo down with combat logs! Hate the things, it's just a tool to measure people's e-peen and satisfy their egos giving them a sense of self-righteousness.

Next thing you know, "Oh the log says you DPS like a blind person. Sorry, not pro/elite enough for us. *kick*"

When Bioware gives us parsable combat logs, will you be using them?

I will, my guild will and I have no issue with the way Bioware is doing it.

I would prefer there to be a public/private toggle but it is not a big deal.

I want them. don't think we'll get them.

Bioware isn't interested in advanced gaming. They don't want to turn off the casual playerbase, so anything that could be misused to mistreat the bulk of their paying customers is a no-no.

Boo down with combat logs! Hate the things, it's just a tool to measure people's e-peen and satisfy their egos giving them a sense of self-righteousness.

 

Next thing you know, "Oh the log says you DPS like a blind person. Sorry, not pro/elite enough for us. *kick*"

You say that like it's a bad thing. If you are a terrible player and we are trying to defeat difficult content why on earth should you be allowed to drag us down?

I want them. don't think we'll get them.

 

Bioware isn't interested in advanced gaming. They don't want to turn off the casual playerbase, so anything that could be misused to mistreat the bulk of their paying customers is a no-no.

Sounds like a good business philosophy.

Sounds like a good business philosophy.

What, protecting people from themselves?

I kid.

I never said it wasn't.

You say that like it's a bad thing. If you are a terrible player and we are trying to defeat difficult content why on earth should you be allowed to drag us down?

Drag us down? I've met casual players and people brand new to MMO's getting kicked from groups with such ferocity over what a virtual log says, that it literally depresses. "You tard l2play! Go play another game! Why do you suck so bad?!" This elitism is getting way too far in MMO's. To bring down others over their skills of handling a keyboard and mouse compared to your skills.

If they implement combat logs, cool, but I hope it's toggled because it's a ridiculous tool. Just because another player doesn't spend hours out of his day to research websites on his class, play in game hours on end "honing his skills", shouldn't mean that he or she should be deprived of a gaming experience over what someone with an e-peen 8 inches long says over a log.

Bioware isn't interested in advanced gaming. They don't want to turn off the casual playerbase, so anything that could be misused to mistreat the bulk of their paying customers is a no-no.

No matter our individual preferences, this is the reality of the situation.

You say that like it's a bad thing. If you are a terrible player and we are trying to defeat difficult content why on earth should you be allowed to drag us down?

Because fair or not, Bioware has decided that his 15 dollars a month is more important then yours.

You say that like it's a bad thing. If you are a terrible player and we are trying to defeat difficult content why on earth should you be allowed to drag us down?

If a player is that bad, it should not take a live log for you to figure it out.

So you have two choices:

1) Try to help them

2) Replace them

You can do both without a live log.

Because fair or not, Bioware has decided that his 15 dollars a month is more important then yours.

Seriously dude, you're a little kid throwing a tantrum. The last 3 things you've posted are just whiny statements.

"I don't get what I want so I must be their least favorite because their not listening to me or doing what I want! UGH!"

So what if they did what YOUR $15 a month wants? Then others will think that Bioware your $15 a month is more important than everyone else's. It goes to show that you will never be satisfied. You complain just to complain.

Drag us down? I've met casual players and people brand new to MMO's getting kicked from groups with such ferocity over what a virtual log says, that it literally depresses. "You tard l2play! Go play another game! Why do you suck so bad?!" This elitism is getting way too far in MMO's. To bring down others over their skills of handling a keyboard and mouse compared to your skills.

 

If they implement combat logs, cool, but I hope it's toggled because it's a ridiculous tool. Just because another player doesn't spend hours out of his day to research websites on his class, play in game hours on end "honing his skills", shouldn't mean that he or she should be deprived of a gaming experience over what someone with an e-peen 8 inches long says over a log.

This. ^

Seriously dude, you're a little kid throwing a tantrum. The last 3 things you've posted are just whiny statements.

 

"I don't get what I want so I must be their least favorite because their not listening to me or doing what I want! UGH!"

 

So what if they did what YOUR $15 a month wants? Then others will think that Bioware your $15 a month is more important than everyone else's. It goes to show that you will never be satisfied. You complain just to complain.

I'm really not mad about it, it just is what it is. I was mildly annoyed, but now I've moved on from it. The sooner people accept this game for what it is and stop trying to change it to what it will never will be, the better for everyone.

You know as well as I do that they don't care if they lose the 10% of their playerbase that wants real combat logs and advanced metrics if it means they keep the 30% or more of their playerbase that would leave because of it.

If a player is that bad, it should not take a live log for you to figure it out.

 

So you have two choices:

 

1) Try to help them

2) Replace them

 

You can do both without a live log.

Though with a log you can analize what they are doing wrong to give them correct advice instead of just guessing and saying "be better".

When Bioware gives us parsable combat logs, will you be using them?

On a few very rare occasions, I'll probably just use my data in whatever form to look into suspected deficiencies of my build, gearing and etc.. If someone asks me for help on improving their performance, I'll use the data they have and are willing to share. I'll consider that against general standards of performance which should be pretty easy to find in these forums and other places. The proposed combat logs in testing would seem to make all I need available.

Because fair or not, Bioware has decided that his 15 dollars a month is more important then yours.

Aye. And Bioware is no longer getting my $15

Though with a log you can analize what they are doing wrong to give them correct advice instead of just guessing and saying "be better".

If that the best advice you can give, perhaps you should not be leading a group....

I'm really not mad about it, it just is what it is. I was mildely annoyed, but now I've moved on from it. The sooner people accept this game for what it is and stop trying to change it to what it will never will be, the better for everyone.

 

You know as well as I do that they don't care if they lose the 10% of their playerbase that wants real combat logs and advanced metrics if it means they keep the 30% or more of their playerbase that would leave because of it.

You speak the truth. That I can't deny. Majority rules in terms of business practices even if it means implementing insane ideas.

On a few very rare occasions, I'll probably just use my data in whatever form to look into suspected deficiencies of my build, gearing and etc.. If someone asks me for help on improving their performance, I'll use the data they have and are willing to share. I'll consider that against general standards of performance which should be pretty easy to find in these forums and other places. The proposed combat logs in testing would seem to make all I need available.

see. this is the difference. I would be using them all the time.

New Mod? is it better than the old one? Do i get more currently from +crit or +power? I dunno lets try my rotation a few times and check out my combat log.

So yes, it is very inconvenient. I don't think it's fair for someone, who doesn't really plan on using it that much, to tell me, someone who wants to use it all the time, the significance of a degree of inconvenience.