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Why, or better yet, how Empire?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore > Spoilers
Why, or better yet, how Empire?

KelKrios's Avatar


KelKrios
02.07.2019 , 05:58 PM | #1
Ok all you lore buffs. I feel I need an explanation. How the heck did Empire get so powerful? I played through the story of SW and found myself very confused. It seems like the Empire is more busy killing off their own then they are troubling with the antics of the Republic. The capable generals are used as puppets in Sith games while capable spies get killed off because reasons while capable Sith get killed off because whims of other Sith. How, how, how does an army like this even function? How did they even grow as powerful as they are? How has this not blown up in their faces???

Allronix's Avatar


Allronix
02.08.2019 , 08:24 AM | #2
The Empire can only do one thing well, and that's wage war. Every resource their have is blown on the war machine. Every aspect of their training is meant to weed out all but the most dangerous warriors. That, and they had the Mando'ade in their back pockets for centuries (Sorry, Torian. Your dad was completely RIGHT). They also have a brutal cross of theocracy and military dictatorship that ensures that every resource is thrown at war, and an economic base made of slave labor that frees up the humans and Sith species from having to perform grunt work.

The Republic is very good at a lot of different things, but war really ins't their long suit. Much has been made of Republic sluggishness and corruption compared to Imperial "efficiency" (in reality, the Imps make decisions quicker, but it's often a stupid decision that leads to short term gains and long term headache). Their military and Force users are not offense-based. It takes the Republic longer to react to a threat, and they aren't usually the ones who strike first. That, and that $#@$%#@$#% IDIOT Revan charging in without so much as WARNING the Republic that the Empire still existed, meaning that the Pubs got caught with their pants down while the Imps had 300 years to prepare. The Republic is just STARTING to seriously fight back come Act 3 of the vanilla story while the Imps have been doing damage since 20 years before the opening scenes.

The average Imp versus the average Pub? Yeah, the Imperial will likely come out ahead because all those lunatics know how to do is fight. Imps are glass cannon DPS, Pubs are stone wall tanks. A DPS can take down a tank if they overwhelm that tank, but if the tank can stay up, they'll wear down the DPS. Strategy-wise, the Republic knows the Imps do more damage to themselves than they do to the Republic, so the Republic isn't necessarily fighting to win, it's fighting to stay alive long enough for the inevitable self-destruct. This probably explains why they were so frustratingly passive during the KOTFE and KOTET arcs; they recognized Zakuul was operating with the same playbook as the Imperials and figured the best option was to hunker down, make some popcorn, and wait for the self-destruct.
Alylia Terel, Satele Shan server

ceryxp's Avatar


ceryxp
02.08.2019 , 10:16 AM | #3
An important factor that must be considered when discussing the Empire's power is the fact that for most of the Empire's existence the Emperor was directly involved in the affairs of the Empire. Tenebrae lead the fleeing Sith to Dromund Kaas (or Ziost, I don't remember where they went to first). It wasn't until Revan's assault on the Emperor, now called Vitiate, that Vitiate faced their first real threat, began using Voices, and became less involved in the day-to-day of the Empire. It's about this point in time that Vitiate creates Valkorian and the Eternal Empire, too. Under Vitiate's direct oversight the Sith infighting was kept to a minimum. In Vitiate's absence the Empire devolved into the thing we see in the game, which is why Valkorian repeatedly says the Empire isn't worth your time. This was due, in large part, to the ideals that were established in Sith dogma. In Zakuul, Valkorian tried to create a different dogma, a different philosophy that, at least in Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorian's mind, would not devolve into what the Sith Empire became in their absence. Of course, this was either a lie or wishful thinking considering T/V/V's plan all along.

* I'm going based on memory so some details may be a little off.


Quote: Originally Posted by Allronix View Post
That, and that $#@$%#@$#% IDIOT Revan charging in without so much as WARNING the Republic that the Empire still existed, meaning that the Pubs got caught with their pants down while the Imps had 300 years to prepare.
This isn't accurate. Following Revan's defeat of the Mandalorians, the forces that remained following the battle at Malachor V went into the outer rim to find the force that had spurred the Mandalorians into attacking and starting the Mandalorian Wars. It was there that Revan and Malak discovered the Sith Empire and the Emperor. Revan and Malak were dominated by the Emperor, in much the same was as the Knight, and sent back to pave the way for the Empire's invasion, but their knowledge of the Empire was either blocked or wiped. When Revan and Malak attacked the Republic they did not know they were acting as agents for the Empire. Following Revan's redemption they had a sense that there was something out there but didn't know what it was. When Revan left they did so to find this threat and in so doing rediscovered the Sith Empire. A few years later Meetra Surik shows up having followed Revan's trail and we get the events with Revan, Meetra, and Scourge. Revan couldn't warn the Republic about the Sith Empire because for Revan each encounter was a discovery.
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KelKrios's Avatar


KelKrios
02.08.2019 , 04:16 PM | #4
Ok. This is making a bit more sense now. Thank you!

FlameYOL's Avatar


FlameYOL
02.08.2019 , 04:50 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by ceryxp View Post
An important factor that must be considered when discussing the Empire's power is the fact that for most of the Empire's existence the Emperor was directly involved in the affairs of the Empire. Tenebrae lead the fleeing Sith to Dromund Kaas (or Ziost, I don't remember where they went to first). It wasn't until Revan's assault on the Emperor, now called Vitiate, that Vitiate faced their first real threat, began using Voices, and became less involved in the day-to-day of the Empire. It's about this point in time that Vitiate creates Valkorian and the Eternal Empire, too. Under Vitiate's direct oversight the Sith infighting was kept to a minimum. In Vitiate's absence the Empire devolved into the thing we see in the game, which is why Valkorian repeatedly says the Empire isn't worth your time. This was due, in large part, to the ideals that were established in Sith dogma. In Zakuul, Valkorian tried to create a different dogma, a different philosophy that, at least in Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorian's mind, would not devolve into what the Sith Empire became in their absence. Of course, this was either a lie or wishful thinking considering T/V/V's plan all along.

* I'm going based on memory so some details may be a little off.
It was Dromund Kaas. Another minor correction is that Vitiate had been crowned as "Lord" by Marka Ragnos around 5100 BBY, by the time Revan had his first assault on him he was already known as "The Emperor".

Quote: Originally Posted by ceryxp View Post
This isn't accurate. Following Revan's defeat of the Mandalorians, the forces that remained following the battle at Malachor V went into the outer rim to find the force that had spurred the Mandalorians into attacking and starting the Mandalorian Wars. It was there that Revan and Malak discovered the Sith Empire and the Emperor. Revan and Malak were dominated by the Emperor, in much the same was as the Knight, and sent back to pave the way for the Empire's invasion, but their knowledge of the Empire was either blocked or wiped. When Revan and Malak attacked the Republic they did not know they were acting as agents for the Empire. Following Revan's redemption they had a sense that there was something out there but didn't know what it was. When Revan left they did so to find this threat and in so doing rediscovered the Sith Empire. A few years later Meetra Surik shows up having followed Revan's trail and we get the events with Revan, Meetra, and Scourge. Revan couldn't warn the Republic about the Sith Empire because for Revan each encounter was a discovery.
Revan and Malak broke free, they weren't acting as agents. As told by the novel.
A man can have anything...If he's willing to sacrifice everything

ceryxp's Avatar


ceryxp
02.10.2019 , 06:43 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by FlameYOL View Post
It was Dromund Kaas. Another minor correction is that Vitiate had been crowned as "Lord" by Marka Ragnos around 5100 BBY, by the time Revan had his first assault on him he was already known as "The Emperor".
I thought it was DK but couldn't remember exactly. I was sitting in a doctor's office when I wrote this and my phone has a habit of wiping out posts if I open a lot of tabs trying to research something, so I just went off of memory. I should have been more clear, every reference to the "Emperor" in my post is to Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorian. I know they weren't the Emperor when they lead the Sith to DK, but I forgot about Marka Ragnos renaming Tenebrae to Vitiate.


Quote:
Revan and Malak broke free, they weren't acting as agents. As told by the novel.
True, but in attacking the Republic the two inadvertently worked in the Emperor's favor by weakening the Republic in much the same way that the Mandalorian invasion was meant to test the Republic and find their weaknesses as a precursor to the Sith invasion. It was only due to Revan's influence after their [third?] capture that the Emperor waited 300 years to fully invade. If Vitiate had gone forward with their plans and invaded the Republic following Revan, Meetra, and Scourge's failed assault the Empire would have wiped out the Republic. The Republic was still recovering from the Jedi Civil War and the Jedi were all but wiped out following the events of the civil war and the First Jedi Purge. Events that occurred as a direct result of Revan's assault. Thus why I said they were unknowingly acting as agents for the Emperor.
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FlameYOL's Avatar


FlameYOL
02.10.2019 , 12:25 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by ceryxp View Post
I thought it was DK but couldn't remember exactly. I was sitting in a doctor's office when I wrote this and my phone has a habit of wiping out posts if I open a lot of tabs trying to research something, so I just went off of memory. I should have been more clear, every reference to the "Emperor" in my post is to Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorian. I know they weren't the Emperor when they lead the Sith to DK, but I forgot about Marka Ragnos renaming Tenebrae to Vitiate.
No worries. Glad I could remind you about it.

Quote: Originally Posted by ceryxp View Post
True, but in attacking the Republic the two inadvertently worked in the Emperor's favor by weakening the Republic in much the same way that the Mandalorian invasion was meant to test the Republic and find their weaknesses as a precursor to the Sith invasion. It was only due to Revan's influence after their [third?] capture that the Emperor waited 300 years to fully invade. If Vitiate had gone forward with their plans and invaded the Republic following Revan, Meetra, and Scourge's failed assault the Empire would have wiped out the Republic. The Republic was still recovering from the Jedi Civil War and the Jedi were all but wiped out following the events of the civil war and the First Jedi Purge. Events that occurred as a direct result of Revan's assault. Thus why I said they were unknowingly acting as agents for the Emperor.
Oh, I see. I misunderstood your point then, and yes. They likely helped Tenebrae as if the Galactic Republic hadn't gone through the Jedi Civil war it would've been able to recover a little bit sooner. Yes, Revan's second attempt was when Tenebrae captured him and from what Charles has spoken it seems Revan did influenced the Emperor in some way. Makes me wonder if it was during these 3 centuries that he went and founded the Eternal Empire, but that's another can of worms we shouldn't open in this thread.
A man can have anything...If he's willing to sacrifice everything

krakadyla's Avatar


krakadyla
02.11.2019 , 10:24 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by KelKrios View Post
It seems like the Empire is more busy killing off their own then they are troubling with the antics of the Republic. The capable generals are used as puppets in Sith games while capable spies get killed off because reasons while capable Sith get killed off because whims of other Sith. How, how, how does an army like this even function? How did they even grow as powerful as they are? How has this not blown up in their faces???
Yeah, I don't get it either and the only possible answer I can muster is "Because Emperor aka Darth Cthulhu''s will holds everything together".

By the way, you can also play Imperial Agent's story -- it asks the same question and even gives a little more grounded answer.

Ymris's Avatar


Ymris
02.11.2019 , 10:52 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by krakadyla View Post
"Because Emperor aka Darth Cthulhu''s will holds everything together".
I'm no expert on Star Wars, but I am quite familiar with Lovecraft's writing. I've yet to encounter anything in Star Wars that is comparable.... in other words, nothing I've been exposed to in SW could be called weird fiction or cosmic horror.

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Edited for typos.
Tensoring straight to hell!

Ardrossan's Avatar


Ardrossan
02.11.2019 , 03:04 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Ymris View Post
I'm no expert on Star Wars, but I am quite familiar with Lovecraft's writing. I've yet to encounter anything in Star Wars that is comparable.... in other words, nothing I've been exposed to in SW could be called weird fiction or cosmic horror.

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Edited for typos.
Abeloth is sort of comparable, but let's not get into that.

Did you ever read Joe Schreiber's Death Troopers? Red Harvest? It was basically Star Wars + Zombies, but the virus that turned people into zombies supposedly came from Mnggal-Mnggal, which is Lovecraftian enough for me.

As far as this game goes, the only real contender is the Terror from Beyond. That whole operation qualifies imo.