Ladies and Gentlemen,

Since the release of 5.0 I have tried many different talent set ups and strategies for PVP and all I can say is UGHHH!!

The devs have stated in the preview that 4.0 van/pts where in a good spot and very versatile, and they were right, however when you update classes and continually neglect/nerf others it does create a very wide gap that as of right now I will say can't be over come.

Going back to the beginning of the game van/pt was a 30 meter class our trade off was we had the defensives of a ranged class. Basically two, reactive shield and kolto overload. The devs have continuously moved us to a more melee class, which is fine however we only have the same cool downs we did when we were a 30 meter class. Which was again fine with the amount of damage and pressure we could put out. In 5.0 I currently have resorted to pillar humping and fringe fighting. The front line class we once were is gone my friends.

I find myself using hold the line trying to run for los instead of chasing people down, with all the movement that other classes have and other abilities I believe we are an antique relic that can safely be hung up on the wall. We are the only class left in the game outside of snipers, which are a ranged class with a class based cc immunity mechanic, that has no anti tunneling ability. If you have stepped foot in a 4v4 you have undoubtably recognized this. For the last two expansions Van/PT are the focus for any team, we get tunneled over any other class. And before anyone says it yes even over a sniper/slinger or a merc/commando.

My Vanguard was my first toon, my first Elite Warlord, and a ton of fun even through the fiasco of 2.0, but this is the worst I can ever remember the class being.

To those of you I have had the pleasure of pvping with and against on Ajunta Pall, Bastion, PoT5 and Ebon Hawk I salute you. I will be retiring from Vanguard/PT the class just holds no place for me anymore moved closer and closer to melee but keeping the current defenses is a direction I do not agree with or wish to see the class go.

To those of you sticking with the class I wish you nothing but success and prosperity.

Sojo

PT tanks are OK in 5.0, but tactics and pyro, man i dont know. Even our over-nerfed utility is still nerfed. I mean it is still 3% HP per missile... 3% HP...

I believe we are an antique relic that can safely be hung up on the wall.

The best description of 5.0 Powertechs and Vanguards

Looks a bit dire.

PT DPS has not much to offer currently.

EA took a big dump over PT/VGs, this patch. If they really want that ranged tank, give back the 30m range. Wasn't OP in the least, or hell even 15-20m would be nice.

Also they need to rebuff riot gas/oil slick since making it reduce accuracy by 15% instead of the original 30% is laughable when DPS and tank accuracy are at 110% which leave it at 95% which mean we're still getting hit. While Sniper / Slinger's version is untouched, in fact it got buffed with that legendary utility which increase armor penetration with each toon effected.

It seems like somebody really don't like this class because it gets weaker and weaker for no reason.

I know you guys are mostly talking about pvp, but i'm finding my vanguard tank to be very weak in pve as well. Comparing it to my guardian, I have half the defensive cd's and none of the offense. I have played various iterations of the vanguard, starting at launch to now, and can state that vanguard in 5.0 is easily the worst it's ever been.

On my guardian, I can jump into a group of difficult enemies and be reasonably confident i'm going to win. While it doesn't compare to a dps class, he can also deal out enough damage that even without a companion, things die in a reasonable amount of time. His cd's are useful in several situations, and when I use one or two, they actually make a difference.

Now for my vanguard.. his damage is horrible. I understand that he's a tank and shouldn't be as concerned with dps, but I am completely dependent on my companion for damage. It was fine in the lower levels, but at 70 it's just ridiculous. The only defensive cd's I have are riot gas, adrenaline rush and reactive shield, which don't make much of a difference when I actually need them. Battle Focus is now offensive based.

I enjoy the concept of vanguard. In a world full of jedi and sith, I liked being just another trooper. But try as I might, I can't get into it this time. It's too weak all around.

Meanwhile, Mercs in PvP are now tankier than my Immortal Jugg. I'm pretty new to PvP in swtor but even I can tell it's pretty lopsided at the moment.

Merc is fine, just feel immortal when your bad and you cant stop dps and wait theyr cd fade

About PT, theyr now like the merc in 4.0, no real CD, squishy like a sorc, main focus in every ranked even as tank... Merc and PT are based on same class, why add a defensive CD to one and let the other with nothing ? thats make no sense, PT with reflect would be great and not unfair, if ppl are bad they will keep hitting you and healing you, if theyr not, you'll die. fair enough for both side

Merc is fine, just feel immortal when your bad and you cant stop dps and wait theyr cd fade

75% heal on expire? LOL. Enjoy it until the inevitable nerf.

They should totally strip this from merc and give it to PT. Unlike merc, PT needs it now. I'd play my PT if they did that.

I really do not like vanguards/powertechs being "melee" class now. As a lot of people already mentioned many abilities does not make sense.

Calling artillery support (vanguard) within 10m of myself does not make sense. Using fragmentation projectile at less than 10m does not make any sense (unless you want to commit suicide). "Projectile" from rifle (HIB) having <10m does not make sense. Hand thrown assault plastique having more range than a rifle shot does not make sense. Bashing someone with a rifle doing more damage than the most powerful shot coming from that rifle does not make sense. At least minimum logic should be used when designing class abilities.

It may be balanced, but it is not logical and it is not fun. I am certain it is possible to keep vanguard as a semi-ranged class as it was before and find other means than reducing its range to balance it with other classes.

I also do not understand why vanguard/PT must be a melee class. Why not have a semi-ranged class in the game, which would be able to do reasonable dps at 30m, but would need to come close to reach max dps? There is already a plenty of pure melee classes and pure ranged classes. Semi-ranged would be something unique and add to game diversity. And I do not think such semi-ranged class would be impossible to balance with other classes.

its only a heal on expire if you are an idiot and keep attacking the merc. Stop dps wait a few seconds and kill him.

You're right that that is the strategy you have to do but that doesn't imply that the skills are balanced for the class.

Additionally, that's only true for one of the two utilities (Trauma Stabilizers on a mando, not sure of the name on a merc.) The other (Adrenal Surge on a 'mando) lasts for up to 60 seconds and heals to 70% when triggered any time in that window.

So you have one that lasts up to a minute and takes the merc back to 70% when it fires, and another that stacks up to 15 5% self-heals. On a ranged DPS class.

Cool story. I like it on my 'mando too. It's still clearly going to get nerfed at some point.

Instead of a nerf they should really move one of those to PT, who needs it now. But they won't.

I'm not calling for a nerf here (like I said, I am having fun with it too), just pointing out that it's pretty clearly going to get whacked by the nerfbat at some point.

It may be balanced, but it is not logical and it is not fun. I am certain it is possible to keep vanguard as a semi-ranged class as it was before and find other means than reducing its range to balance it with other classes.

BioWare made countless of illogical skills, names and decisions since the beginning.

The latest changes in 5.0 are more about how to define a role in a role-based MMO. They try to design a heavily armored close-quarter combatant (no force user).

BTW: Their focus on roles also resulted in the removal of Phase Walk for Assassins.

So IMO, BioWare made the initial 'mistake' to give Vanguards a rifle and not some sort of shotgun or wrist-cannon (see Handsome Jack). But that's something they can't simply change with a patch.

I also do not understand why vanguard/PT must be a melee class. Why not have a semi-ranged class in the game, which would be able to do reasonable dps at 30m, but would need to come close to reach max dps? There is already a plenty of pure melee classes and pure ranged classes. Semi-ranged would be something unique and add to game diversity. And I do not think such semi-ranged class would be impossible to balance with other classes.

It's a common mistake here on this forum that players often think in two only categories: melee or ranged.

But in fact. there have been three different range categories all along: melee (4m), mid-range (10m) & high-range (30m+). In other words, PTs were never a melee class and BioWare haven't changed them into one.

What BioWare did was to reduce the high-range abilities to mid-range abilities in order to emphasize the differences towards Commandos // Mercenaries and to support the player decision to favor a charge attack (Jet Charge), a taunt (Neural Dart), a Grapple, a Carbonize and a few other things over high-range attacks.

So if you ask PTs to have a decent DPS at 30m range, you're actually requesting an all-around class and therefore a bypass to the typical over-stereotyping in RPGs. (f.e. why aren't Wizards allowed to wear heavy armor). And due to the fact that every other class could ask for similar or unique bypasses as well, the RPG game will end without distinct class roles.

... At least minimum logic should be used...

THAT is in very short supply there lately.....

BioWare made countless of illogical skills, names and decisions since the beginning.

 

The latest changes in 5.0 are more about how to define a role in a role-based MMO. They try to design a heavily armored close-quarter combatant (no force user).

 

BTW: Their focus on roles also resulted in the removal of Phase Walk for Assassins.

 

So IMO, BioWare made the initial 'mistake' to give Vanguards a rifle and not some sort of shotgun or wrist-cannon (see Handsome Jack). But that's something they can't simply change with a patch.

 

 

It's a common mistake here on this forum that players often think in two only categories: melee or ranged.

 

But in fact. there have been three different range categories all along: melee (4m), mid-range (10m) & high-range (30m+). In other words, PTs were never a melee class and BioWare haven't changed them into one.

 

What BioWare did was to reduce the high-range abilities to mid-range abilities in order to emphasize the differences towards Commandos // Mercenaries and to support the player decision to favor a charge attack (Jet Charge), a taunt (Neural Dart), a Grapple, a Carbonize and a few other things over high-range attacks.

 

So if you ask PTs to have a decent DPS at 30m range, you're actually requesting an all-around class and therefore a bypass to the typical over-stereotyping in RPGs. (f.e. why aren't Wizards allowed to wear heavy armor). And due to the fact that every other class could ask for similar or unique bypasses as well, the RPG game will end without distinct class roles.

Than they should make 10m abilities visually suit the range requirements at least, I guess. New mortar and slug shot look stupid for CQC. Could made another pulse wave or smth that is common for mid range combat.

A small update to this post.

While gearing up other toons, I have taken a few excess coms and put some gear on my pt/van. With the current imbalance with certain characters dps it has made little difference. Running with a tank/heals I have found that I can work my butt off in a warzone for maybe third place on the boards. On the bright side the tank and heals I run with have had some excellent numbers 6.1 mil prot, and 10k hps lol. I'll let you all guess who the tank was guarding and who the dps were tunneling while the healer did their job.......

The update here is gear doesn't help our situation, our lack of dcd's for a "10 meter" class, which really fury mara and rage jug are in that category, it isn't even close. The "numbers pass" the developers are doing right now will make no difference in "class balance", our only hope here is that when they finally get around to utilities, we actually get something decent, besides something in just about every tier that we have to take for hydraulic overrides which they nerfed the cool down on........ I am eyeing that heal on shield... they can keep the 70 percent kolto, that's a 3 minute cooldown, that heal on shield would be juicy, but it would still only leave us with the shield and "snicker" kolto as dcds. The defense on aoe taunt is useless and should be made back to resist like it was before mara's got it on obfuscate........

I just wanted to come back and update what I had found with the class, which is not much has changed. Hopefully it will get better, or maybe that's just wishful thinking.

Anyone else decided to play dps van/pt? What's your thoughts?

I think the dps of Tactics is fine. The survivability seems decent in a 1v1 against most classes, but against a group it's rough: "Kolto overload and run away with hydraulic overrides."

exactly.

burst phase is good for AP spec (even if you can't repeat a high burst rotation often enough because of shoulder canon's cooldown) but the survivability state is the worst.

you're obliged to keep hydraulic and active kolto overload to run away and kite (if you can survive..)

------

hopefully pyrotech will be improved, in damage but surely in suvivability too, i am waiting the dev's post to see this.

I think the dps of Tactics is fine. The survivability seems decent in a 1v1 against most classes, but against a group it's rough: "Kolto overload and run away with hydraulic overrides."

Not really. Just about every class and spec simply has more tools to use to stay up. A good sniper/mara/jug/op/Sin/ and especially merc should have absolutely no issues bringing a PT down handily, provided both players are similarly skilled. There's just not much a PT can do to protect themselves.

source 5.3 patchnote :

"Increased the damage dealt by Deadly Onslaught by roughly 61%, lowered its cooldown to 20 seconds, and fixed its tooltip."

from AP spec :

Prototype Missile Silos : Reduces the cooldown of Deadly Onslaught by 15 seconds and increases the damage it deals by 10%.(...)

---> i can't believe AP/PT will have a 5sec cooldown aoe at +71% damage O_O

Powertech Adv Prototype:

Can't comment on numbers/viability, i've been outside of the game for a while, but just for style or flavor:

-give back range on rail shot. i know i'm mid ranged, but geez... (i can throw my grenade three times further)

-give us another animation with the jetpack for deadly onslaught (i have a jetpack, don't want that awful new thing on my back)

-and still for onslaught, a wider aoe, that circle is ridiculous compared to other classes' aoes.

-great, now i lost my flamethrower. i know i'm not a pyro, but still...

Tl,dr: my class icon is a flamethrower but i'll never see it, i have a jetpack for ONE attack only, and my wrist canon is weak sauce.

Do you devs think Mandalore approves of this?

Thanks, Eric. (or thanks Donald, maybe ^^)