I am trying to understand the direction in PVP SWTOR is going? When DPS are capable of having sustained 14-20k DPS, while healers are capable of putting out 10-14k sustained HPS, how does this add up?

I am not a mathematician, but let's look at a simple 4v4. If i am a healer, and I am capable of 14k HPS, how does this match up against DPS that are pouring out 14-20k DPS EACH? How does a healer manage two DPS that are bursting for 100k-200k each during the time it takes for one stun to elapse?

Healers are getting smoked too easily now. When there's so many stuns, roots, mezzes, then you add on top of this bloat of CC, AND masive burst that simply is overwhelming and mathematically superior in numbers over what a healer can do, why would people play healers it makes no sense!

Basically I see these issues that need addressed:

1. DPS burst is too high now. PTs, Sins, and Operatives all are doing WAY too much sustained damage adding to that massive burst they also enjoy that healers are incapable of countering.

2. Heal specs need better gear sets! Come on BW! You got all these fancy awesome tacticals and gear sets that make some DPS specs unstoppable, yet the healer tacticals are GARBAGE! On top of that, the gear sets are GARBAGE for healers too! We got healers having to use DPS specific gear sets because healers HAVE NO GOOD GEAR SETS!!!!!!

Hello BW? Instead of nerfing THE DPS MERC GEAR SET Concentrated Fire that the healers use, why don't you devs adjust the healing spec so their heals are more appropriate when used WITH the gear set? Or, at least if you going to destroy the merc Concentrated Fire gear set, FIX the other gear sets so healers have an alternative set to use! (This nerf is ridiculous btw.)

I've only done PvP when my guild buddies dragged me into it, but each time, my healer got smoked. I was readily dispatched almost every time except for one time where I was on this bridge and somehow managed to be the last man standing just healing myself and my team won. That didn't happen the next time, the other team offed me handily.

That said, and I'm by no means an expert on PvP, but I don't believe a stat arms race is the answer.

Buff healers, and the damage types will simply crawl onto the forums screaming bloody murder to have healers nerfed or demanding yet more output of their own to overcome the healers.

It's a rancid, no-win situation.

I haven't played PvP since cross-faction came out, but from the numbers you're quoting it sounds to me like the PvP trauma debuff has finally outlived its usefulness. Without the inherent 30% healing received debuff, healers would be putting out 14k/0.7=20k HPS, making them as useful as a DD.

That would be the simple solution and would solve the immediate problem of having healers and DDs put out equal numbers. The real solution is to finally balance the game separately for PvP so that they can tweak numbers in PvP without breaking something in PvE like they do nearly every balance patch, but I've given up hope of them ever putting in that kind of effort at this point.

The real solution is to finally balance the game separately for PvP so that they can tweak numbers in PvP without breaking something in PvE like they do nearly every balance patch

So true. Many times I've called for the stat foundations between PvE and PvP to be separated. I don't think the willingness is there among the devs for it. I'm no mathematician, but how hard could such a scheme truly be?

I am trying to understand the direction in PVP SWTOR is going? When DPS are capable of having sustained 14-20k DPS, while healers are capable of putting out 10-14k sustained HPS, how does this add up?

 

I am not a mathematician, but let's look at a simple 4v4. If i am a healer, and I am capable of 14k HPS, how does this match up against DPS that are pouring out 14-20k DPS EACH? How does a healer manage two DPS that are bursting for 100k-200k each during the time it takes for one stun to elapse?

Your numbers are wrong. It is much easier for healers to reach 16-18k hps than it is for dps to do 16-18k dps. I've never seen anyone do more than 18k dps, but I've seen a bunch of healers eclipse it. The only classes that can do 14k+ consistently are pts and leth ops. Other classes can get there sometimes under the right conditions, but not all the time. 10-12k is much more common, and that's usually decent dps.

I don't play healers, so I have no comment on your overall point, but you should be operating on the actual facts, not hyperbole like you usually do.

Your numbers are wrong. It is much easier for healers to reach 16-18k hps than it is for dps to do 16-18k dps. I've never seen anyone do more than 18k dps, but I've seen a bunch of healers eclipse it. The only classes that can do 14k+ consistently are pts and leth ops. Other classes can get there sometimes under the right conditions, but not all the time. 10-12k is much more common, and that's usually decent dps.

 

I don't play healers, so I have no comment on your overall point, but you should be operating on the actual facts, not hyperbole like you usually do.

Well I assumed my numbers would be parsed for accuracy that’s fine too. Without any of us having exact detailed numbers to parse exactly by how much healers are overlapped by DPS, and with every situation being slightly different than the other let’s at least be honest here. Alex, I want to just cut through the side arguments and picking apart of words, let’s just get to the facts here.

Alex and anyone else with experience as a healer versus the DPS meta right now, Answer this: Are healers capable of handling the incoming damage fairly now, or are DPS in general over performing when compared? Just answer that I want to hear your opinion on that.

Particularly sorc healers since I play that the most and can easily talk with personal experience on that class, and since the other class I am greatly familiar with is getting adjusted that being merc healer. I play sorc heals preferably now, though. Even before the nerf just fyi. So answer that. Answer my one question. Are healers fairly capable of managing the totality of DPS AND burst now, since 6.0?

Alex and anyone else with experience as a healer versus the DPS meta right now, Answer this: Are healers capable of handling the incoming damage fairly now, or are DPS in general over performing when compared? Just answer that I want to hear your opinion on that.

 

Particularly sorc healers since I play that the most and can easily talk with personal experience on that class, and since the other class I am greatly familiar with is getting adjusted that being merc healer. I play sorc heals preferably now, though. Even before the nerf just fyi. So answer that. Answer my one question. Are healers fairly capable of managing the totality of DPS AND burst now, since 6.0?

It's a difficult question to answer. In my opinion, healers were slightly overtuned in 5.0. Meaning they could survive too easily under pressure from multiple dps if they kited well (mainly sorc healers).

Now in 6.0, maybe they're slightly undertuned. In season 10 and 11, if one side of a ranked match got a healer and the other got a backfilled dps, the team with the healer would nearly always win. Now in 6.0 in similar situations, the team with the healer often loses. Usually both teams have a healer so it's still fair. Overall, it's definitely true that healers are worse off now than they were in 5.0.

But that being said, healers still do fine in tank/heal games. Because even if you think the raw numbers are in favor of dps vs hps, you're not taking into account guard and dcds, let alone cc.

Personally, I like healing better where it is now compared to 5.0, but I'm a biased dps main.

Healers are fine. You're not supposed to be able to keep people alive indefinitely.

They cycle their cooldowns/stuns/cc, you cycle your cooldowns.. and once those run out, its game over.

That's literally the way its supposed to work.

It's a difficult question to answer. In my opinion, healers were slightly overtuned in 5.0. Meaning they could survive too easily under pressure from multiple dps if they kited well (mainly sorc healers).

 

Now in 6.0, maybe they're slightly undertuned. In season 10 and 11, if one side of a ranked match got a healer and the other got a backfilled dps, the team with the healer would nearly always win. Now in 6.0 in similar situations, the team with the healer often loses. Usually both teams have a healer so it's still fair. Overall, it's definitely true that healers are worse off now than they were in 5.0.

 

But that being said, healers still do fine in tank/heal games. Because even if you think the raw numbers are in favor of dps vs hps, you're not taking into account guard and dcds, let alone cc.

 

Personally, I like healing better where it is now compared to 5.0, but I'm a biased dps main.

So we agree that healers are actually performing under DPS. Add subjective words like “slightly” or when we start debating my so-called hyperbole is counterproductive and really shows me you just want to argue with me, and invalidate my opinion. Oh well. At least you are honest enough to admit that you agree with the gist of my complaint. Thanks for that.

As for the prior meta and how healers were and DPS were, what does that have to do with the present situation in this meta? Alright, so maybe some people think healers were overtuned in the earlier meta before 6.0... well, I personally believe heals and DPS were fairly balanced except for merc healers who were still incapable of being solid healers in ranked whether it was solo or group, they simply couldn’t handle interrupts and lacked mobility. Point is, I believe the issue even in 5.0 wasn’t healers being overturned instead it’s more of a matter of guard and taunts playing a bigger part in the worsening issue of Not being able to kill in PVP.

I think good dps in the 5.0 meta could solo good healers whereas now, it’s more like an average DPS can solo a Good healer because of the ridiculous burst DPS now have along with the additional buff DPS got to their sustained DPS in PVP, whereas healers did not get these boosts in performance to match what the DPS got. Whether you agree with this opinion or not really doesn’t matter though, especially when we are in agreement that DPS are actually overturned and over performing versus healers.

Healers are fine. You're not supposed to be able to keep people alive indefinitely.

They cycle their cooldowns/stuns/cc, you cycle your cooldowns.. and once those run out, its game over.

 

That's literally the way its supposed to work.

Yeah, nowhere did I say healers should keep people alive forever. Thanks for reading though. I guess?

Yeah, nowhere did I say healers should keep people alive forever. Thanks for reading though. I guess?

Yeah? It includes yourself, being the healer.

I am trying to understand the direction in PVP SWTOR is going? When DPS are capable of having sustained 14-20k DPS, while healers are capable of putting out 10-14k sustained HPS, how does this add up?

uhhhhh....

Where do you get you numbers from?

Good DPS are capable of having 10-14k sustained dps.

Good healers are capable of having 16-22k sustained hps.

Healers are fine. You're not supposed to be able to keep people alive indefinitely.

They cycle their cooldowns/stuns/cc, you cycle your cooldowns.. and once those run out, its game over.

 

That's literally the way its supposed to work.

Pretty much this.

So we agree that healers are actually performing under DPS. Add subjective words like “slightly” or when we start debating my so-called hyperbole is counterproductive and really shows me you just want to argue with me, and invalidate my opinion. Oh well. At least you are honest enough to admit that you agree with the gist of my complaint. Thanks for that.

Right, I forgot you live in a world of black and white, devoid of nuance, where lying and using hyperbole are justified to prove your point at all costs. You literally pull numbers out of your ***, make **** up, and then get mad at people for correcting you lmao.

Whether you agree with this opinion or not really doesn’t matter though, especially when we are in agreement that DPS are actually overturned and over performing versus healers.

I never said anything about dps being overtuned. I simply said healers in 6.0 are underperforming compared to healers in 5.0. And I think it's a more fun playing experience the way it is now, as a dps player at least.

From a Regs pov I feel heals are in a decent spot in all honesty.

A good healer can keep up a team as would be expected; two good healers on a team can become nigh unstoppable against a subpar team (especially if you add a tank into the mix).

As has been said a healer is not meant to easily survive when under focus whilst also keeping their teams health topped up (even if this is not what you where implying); they’re meant to support their team but crumble if heavily focused without proper support from their teammates.

I’ve seen healers pull absolutely insane heals in a single warzone, and even if they are exceptions it’s still proof enough in my eyes that a good healer can easily keep up with the big bad dps.

Most games you probably see today are being saved by force bound and dps dropping greatly due to force bound. Remove that from the situation and you'll see the numbers go back up like before people had force bound.

I do not think force bound is the solution at all, it's rather a BS thing to bandaid an already bad situation.

It is a difficult topic. On the one hand I feel bad for healers as most can not keep up with damage, but at the same time I don't think people should be able to survive as long as the 5.x era.

In low and midbies healers are (mostly) an outright disadvantage for your team - only the rare level +70 with 258 set bonus can really make an impact, and yes who cares about low/midbies, but I suspect this deters many aspiring healers from sticking with the class.

The real problem is ranked with no tank. Even the best healer can not keep a single DPS alive for long with 3-4 people whaling on him. Again, maybe that is actually fine, but it will discourage most healers from trying.

It's a catch-22.

For tanks I think guard is extremely strong and OP atm. A healer with a guard becomes un-killable.

14k HPS is average nos IMO. I have done it with all my heals (all three classes and I play them very little nowadays) and all have level 70 augments and still no BiS. I played with Sage couple weeks ago no augments no BiS I did 16k HPS.

A good healer does 15k plus, while DPS who do those numbers are little. Usually it is PT, Juggs, and Sorcs. PT is a bit problem because apart having a high sustained DPS it is also bursty.

In PvP more then DPS alone the focus should be about the burst. So if max heal is 50k and max Damage hit is 70k, and they can put a couple 50k hits in between there lies the problem. This was the problem with Sins before nerf for example, and now is a problem with PTs. So if healer is not guarded and many hardly use taunts healer has not much life to live.

As someone who just returned to 6.0 from 3.0 era where having more than 3 healers in regs sometimes meant no one was capping mid for the entirety of the match and more often than not reg arenas ended with poison... Yeah. Current state does feel much more healthy.

The big issue, already highlighted here, is heals' reliance on tanks. If you queue solo for regs, don't get a tank and it's the arena, odds are you'll lose miserably. If it's something like VS you're lucky and quite impactful. Probably less impactful overall than needed to justify NOT going to WZ to kill people for some but I digress...

The question you ask is not wrong per se but it hardly determines viability of healers overall. What does is whether the team with a healer has better chance of winning (or having better K/D ratio if we're talking farmers) than without. Most likely - still yes unless it's a tankless arena. I'd even say regs are in a relatively good state now - from a low-mid casual perspective, anyway. The only really big issue I've ran into so far was PT survivability; it would seem only Canadian is fine with it

The rest suffers from usual balancing issues SWTOR always had plenty but again, IMO it's far better now than it was when heals were sustainable until someone slips really hard or until the wz ends.

As someone who just returned to 6.0 from 3.0 era where having more than 3 healers in regs sometimes meant no one was capping mid for the entirety of the match and more often than not reg arenas ended with poison... Yeah. Current state does feel much more healthy.

 

The big issue, already highlighted here, is heals' reliance on tanks. If you queue solo for regs, don't get a tank and it's the arena, odds are you'll lose miserably. If it's something like VS you're lucky and quite impactful. Probably less impactful overall than needed to justify NOT going to WZ to kill people for some but I digress...

 

The question you ask is not wrong per se but it hardly determines viability of healers overall. What does is whether the team with a healer has better chance of winning (or having better K/D ratio if we're talking farmers) than without. Most likely - still yes unless it's a tankless arena. I'd even say regs are in a relatively good state now - from a low-mid casual perspective, anyway. The only really big issue I've ran into so far was PT survivability; it would seem only Canadian is fine with it

The rest suffers from usual balancing issues SWTOR always had plenty but again, IMO it's far better now than it was when heals were sustainable until someone slips really hard or until the wz ends.

I find sorc more fun to play healing now than I have in a long time. It's a tad more complex (still easy) with the resurgence mechanic added and I like the gameplay of sorc, it's faster placed than merc imo and I like the mobility and style of healing with sorc. It's closer to how it was in 2.0-3.0 than it has been in a long time.

That being said, I still have eyes and understand/know DPS are working with a much improved amount of burst in 6.0, and overall damage has been pushed higher. That's fine too. However, a slight bump up on sorc heals to better deal with the immense increase in overall damage to all the DPS classes wouldn't break anything. That's all I really want.

I don't like playing OP'd classes personally. Since mercs got buffed as healers, it took me less than a month to find I did not enjoy the style or gameplay of merc heals now! Yes, they are much improved. But they bore me, and frankly I don't like the "feel" of their gameplay now, not as much as I did before 6.0. So, even though merc heals is strong, I personally don't enjoy it.

I do enjoy sorc heals, and I do see where the sorc healer could use some slight tweaks to their performance in PVP without making them OP, and that is the point of this post. I don't want sorcs to be made impossible to kill, I just want them to have adequate tools to perform at the same level as these apex DPS do.

In any mmo pvp....

What do you do when a dps does too much damage?

You kill him first.

What do you do when a healer heals too much?

You....find someone else to kill.

More healing isn't the answer to too much burst. It's apples and oranges, and throws everything else out of balance when you try to fix it as a single problem.

The biggest cancer in mmo pvp is over-healing. Doesn't matter what game it is. It makes it a miserable slugfest where individual skill is eclipsed by the fact no one dies. Newer players who try pvp usually quit in that situation, and it drives away the existing player base. At least in 6.X people are dying. It sucks, but with Bioware's track record for balancing, it's better for the game when healers under perform.

SWTOR was a step backwards in many ways from Warhammer Online. There were healing classes in WAR which had their healing abilities proc on or fuel their damage abilities, and vise versa. Instead of healers prolonging fights indefinitely, (which is boring and frustrating) these classes acted much more like hybrid dps/healers. It was way more fun for everyone involved. Healers weren't invincible distant gods, they were enemies who could kill and be killed. It wouldn't even be hard to apply those mechanics in SWTOR, just some adjustments on operation boss dps.

It's too bad the "Fungineers" at Bioware can't think outside the box like that. They're still in the mindset of "priest in the back healing people" rather than the "cleric in platemail bashing in goblin heads" mentality.

To be honest with you vs 3 or 4 good DPS.... i wanna see one HPS who can survive one minute against them.

Maybe the merc is capable of that.

With an Tank or another DPS with you, it isnt that hard.

I actually can hit my 20k hps in Arenas and even in 25 min Novare Coast games.

HPS just feel a bit weird because u cant use ur full mobility potential, because u need to use ur gcd's more efficient than ever.

No offense intended but maybe youre just bad healers, because the really good ones can have 3 or 4 people focusing them and it can take minutes to finally kill them.

i think you're actually just bad at dps if 3-4 players take minutes to kill a healer

I think we are asking the wrong question.

Shouldn't the real question be how to make each healer viable while also maintaining a unique play style. I think we have come to a point where they are so close to each other that only the HPS Target matters.

Where we really should be at a point that I choose x healer because its better in x situation like it was more 3.0-4.0.

Example:

Mandos- Better single target

Sorc- Better AOE

Operative- HOTS.

Right now they all feel very sameish.