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Deserter Lockout, terrible new mechanic


Voriik

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I'm against it personally. Random WZ's ensures all maps get played. A less popular map that some people like would end up dead and that's unfair to those players. The closest thing to being fair imo would be a map vote system when the queue pops and the match loads into the map that was voted for.

 

No...tyranny of the majority. I'd almost never get the maps i like. Novare Coast was came up for me three times in a row and I was sick of it by the end. A fourth time and I would have gone insane. Getting a map that I hate several times in a row would be godawful. It would only prompt more deserters.

 

Incidentally, I have noticed a creeping increase in the frequency of deserters in matches. For the first few days, it seemed that you'd get your 8 and that was it. This deserter debuff is serving to potentially influence players to fight harder. Lately, however, those who have no interest in a map or a particular match are bailing anyway. Dunno if your experience varies.

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i go stealth and go afk in the matches. what are you gonna do ?? how is the system working out for ya :p

 

premades and same terrible wz maps is what kills pvp

 

Premades don't kill pvp, bad players kill pvp. Good players group up, teach bad players lesson. bang bang bang on head. ouch, hurt, cry. make post about premades, unfair they better.

All the while ignoring the fact that team play has proven successful and they still refuse to play like a team, therefore they lose.

not premades fault individuals are ignorant

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Premades don't kill pvp, bad players kill pvp. Good players group up, teach bad players lesson. bang bang bang on head. ouch, hurt, cry. make post about premades, unfair they better.

All the while ignoring the fact that team play has proven successful and they still refuse to play like a team, therefore they lose.

not premades fault individuals are ignorant

 

The problem you're ignoring is that "bad" (read normal) players make up most of the PvP population (myself included). Premades can discourage solo players when the solo players are kept from having any impact on a game other than stats for the opposing team.

 

Another problem you're overlooking is the time-honored "horse to water" proverb which does, I admit, reinforce your argument (people need to work as a team, but the opportunity is often dismissed). However, it also helps the point I want to make which is the following: a single player alone cannot do more than influence players to work as a team...and that only works if others believe in his/her leadership. Most people ignore instructions, or they give contradicting opinions as to what should be done resulting in no decisive action being taken by enough people to accomplish anything. Sometimes players sync, but that is rare.

 

Banning premades is not a solution. Creating a queue for premades only is not a solution because it would dilute an already thin PvP playerbase. Premade groups only teach solo players two things:

 

1) that it sucks to play against premade groups

2) join a group or die

 

What I am getting at here is that there is no action to take, no grand lesson to be learned. People need to vent and that's that.

Edited by Sappharan
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Premades don't kill pvp, bad players kill pvp. Good players group up, teach bad players lesson. bang bang bang on head. ouch, hurt, cry. make post about premades, unfair they better.

All the while ignoring the fact that team play has proven successful and they still refuse to play like a team, therefore they lose.

not premades fault individuals are ignorant

 

and yet your post is so ignorant.

 

Bad players do not kill pvp, toxicity does so bad design, bugs bla bla.

 

Don't balme it on bad players, you were one at some point.

 

I agree, premades are not the cancer.

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i go stealth and go afk in the matches. what are you gonna do ?? how is the system working out for ya :p

 

premades and same terrible wz maps is what kills pvp

 

Get reported enough and you'll be enjoying that ban. Trust me, I've seen it happen to a few people.

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The problem you're ignoring is that "bad" (read normal) players make up most of the PvP population (myself included). Premades can discourage solo players when the solo players are kept from having any impact on a game other than stats for the opposing team.

 

Another problem you're overlooking is the time-honored "horse to water" proverb which does, I admit, reinforce your argument (people need to work as a team, but the opportunity is often dismissed). However, it also helps the point I want to make which is the following: a single player alone cannot do more than influence players to work as a team...and that only works if others believe in his/her leadership. Most people ignore instructions, or they give contradicting opinions as to what should be done resulting in no decisive action being taken by enough people to accomplish anything. Sometimes players sync, but that is rare.

 

Banning premades is not a solution. Creating a queue for premades only is not a solution because it would dilute an already thin PvP playerbase. Premade groups only teach solo players two things:

 

1) that it sucks to play against premade groups

2) join a group or die

 

What I am getting at here is that there is no action to take, no grand lesson to be learned. People need to vent and that's that.

I'm glad to see someone is starting to address the elephant in the room

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i go stealth and go afk in the matches. what are you gonna do ?? how is the system working out for ya :p

 

premades and same terrible wz maps is what kills pvp

 

why do you even que regs if you're just going to afk troll? like what is the point? Wouldn't ur time just be better used... idk... taking a walk outside? riding a bike? playing a card game?

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Premades don't kill pvp, bad players kill pvp. Good players group up, teach bad players lesson. bang bang bang on head. ouch, hurt, cry. make post about premades, unfair they better.

All the while ignoring the fact that team play has proven successful and they still refuse to play like a team, therefore they lose.

not premades fault individuals are ignorant

 

premades should be matched with each other, but those cowards would cry about getting stomped by better premades. any pvp/multiplayer where you match pubs/regs with premades is a terrible design. it has never worked for any other game. no different story in swtor.

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premades should be matched with each other, but those cowards would cry about getting stomped by better premades. any pvp/multiplayer where you match pubs/regs with premades is a terrible design. it has never worked for any other game. no different story in swtor.

 

They are normally. I rarely run into premades until I'm in one myself then every match seems to have one.

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They are normally. I rarely run into premades until I'm in one myself then every match seems to have one.

 

I see quite a lot of premades on Star forge at the times I play. Both in lowbies, Mids and lvl 75. They really stand out because 75% of my games are arena.

It’s actually really sad because I know some of the names and they are often ranked players. The experience is like putting a solo queue team with an ELO of 1100 up against a grank team with an ELO 1500

Bioware don’t do that to ranked because it’s unfair and everyone would cry about it. But Bioware and many premaders thinks it’s ok to do it in Regs?

I can tell you before this lock out buff was added, I would just leave those matches. Now we can’t and you get stuck into a loop rotation where every other match is against them and they taunt you in chat. It’s actually worse than the toxicity I’ve seen in ranked. They kill any enjoyment you might be having and people stop queuing, which kills the queue faster than it used to.

What’s worse is it also keeps making matches 3v4 against these guys. So not only do you pop against a premade, you also have one less player. But if we decide to leave the match, we get slugged with a 15min deserter timer.

I can categorically say from my experiences in a low pop environment, that the debuff is actually hurting pvp pop times and numbers outside of primetime. It’s doing more harm than good.

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I can't account for lowbies because I don't play lowbies given that the queue for under 75 pvp is all but dead, especially in the early morning hours you play in. I play during prime time east coast US and I solo 98% of the time and I honestly rarely come across any premades.

 

I'm always up and down on the conversation of premades, but my general opinion of them in the current state of the game is just whatever. If I come across one, so what. Play the match and move on. Most of them are garbage number farmers anyways and they are not even good at that.

Edited by Raansu
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I can't account for lowbies because I don't play lowbies given that the queue for under 75 pvp is all but dead, especially in the early morning hours you play in. I play during prime time east coast US and I solo 98% of the time and I honestly rarely come across any premades.

 

I'm always up and down on the conversation of premades, but my general opinion of them in the current state of the game is just whatever. If I come across one, so what. Play the match and move on. Most of them are garbage number farmers anyways and they are not even good at that.

 

Try playing when 75% of your pops are arena and you get ranked quality premade’s vs reg quality pugs. I’m sure you wouldn’t play solo during those matches or you’d stop queuing.

 

Sadly, the new lock out means we can’t even leave now. And with losses not counting towards the missions or conquest anymore, there is a lot of reasons to stop pvping altogether under those circumstances.

 

The whole situation is perfect storm to kill pvp outside of primetime.

 

1. Lock outs mean less players in the queue “if” they decide to leave

2. Losses don’t count towards mission completion or conquest. So totally unbalanced teams and matches are a waste of time.

3. Low pop environment means lots of arena matches.

4. Then add premaders to the mix and it ruins matches and the queue. You will lose 99% of the time.

 

Which means it quickly becomes a complete waste of time queuing when you can’t even complete a daily. So less people queue and you have a self perpetuating situation of low pops. Hence my perfect storm analogy.

 

Eventually this is going to encroach on primetime pops too (these things always do). It will start to snow ball and it will kill pvp if Bioware don’t make changes before it hits critical mass.

 

Bioware would never consider getting rid of the ranked solo queue and letting “ranked” be a mix of puggers and premades because we know how unfair that would be. So if Bioware are going to continue having a deserter lockout and make losses not count towards the missions, then same consideration should be given to regs as they do to ranked.

 

So if they are determined to keep the same conditions in place, they need either :

1. Totally remove premades from the pug queue and give it a seperate queue (which I know will never happen because we don’t have a large enough population)

Or

2. They need to reduce premade sizes to two man (not perfect, but it is a compromise)

Or

3. They need to make it so losses still count (use the old point system)

Or

4. They need to remove the lock out timer for leaving reg matches (or they need to at least reduce the lock out time by half during low pop times)

 

If they are determined to keep a lock out timer and make it so wins are everything, then would set it up like this :

1. Premades are reduced to maximum of two man.

2. A win gives 3 points and a loss gives 1 point and you need 3 points complete the daily mission and 30 points to complete the weekly.

3. Reduce the lock out timer to 10 mins in high pop environment and 5 mins in a low pop environment. They also need to add a debuff symbol to your character so you can mouse over it and actually “see” how much time is left on it.

4. Remove lock outs completely from lowbies and Mids.

 

None of what I’m suggesting is perfect and it won’t make everyone happy. It’s mostly a compromise to make a bad system more tolerable and slow down the pvp killing snow ball that is Bioware.

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All that whining about the time penalty. :rolleyes: Its brilliant

 

It's not whining when we are outlining our issues with the issues we have with the debuff. The debuff on its own is not the crux of the problem as such...it's that people are dissatisfied with it in CONJUNCTION with there being no ability to choose maps, there being no method of determining who is dropping voluntarily versus being affected by circumstances beyond a player's control, and the ongoing debate on the merits of allowing or disallowing premades and the havoc those premades can wreak on solo queue players. ;)

 

Bioware do not listen to these wimps, finally a good Mechanic in the game. Keep it up!

 

But, of course, we accept ad-hominem comments in place of cogent arguments in opposition to ours. :rolleyes:

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Try playing when 75% of your pops are arena and you get ranked quality premade’s vs reg quality pugs. I’m sure you wouldn’t play solo during those matches or you’d stop queuing.

 

Sadly, the new lock out means we can’t even leave now. And with losses not counting towards the missions or conquest anymore, there is a lot of reasons to stop pvping altogether under those circumstances.

 

The whole situation is perfect storm to kill pvp outside of primetime.

 

1. Lock outs mean less players in the queue “if” they decide to leave

2. Losses don’t count towards mission completion or conquest. So totally unbalanced teams and matches are a waste of time.

3. Low pop environment means lots of arena matches.

4. Then add premaders to the mix and it ruins matches and the queue. You will lose 99% of the time.

 

This has been my experience. I enjoy PvP for the sake of PvP, but the sting of a loss is ameliorated by advancing a quest, even if only a little bit. So, it's not just wasting time for me, but it *IS* an exercise in frustration much of the time.

 

Being not particularly skilled, I am finding my win percentage tanking even from what it was before. I am not godawful...at least, not in the context of doing my job. I am a dps player. My damage, when compared to others in the same warzones is usually respectable, even decent much of the time. I pay attention to the objectives (even in buttball, though I loathe that map) and I do my best to stymie or kill healers, capture nodes/or prevent opponents from stopping us capturing them, and to chase opponents from capture points so we can claim them. I try not to chase kills where unnecessary. All of this, and I STILL find that I have to play five or six games before I get my daily completed. Is it luck? Poor play on my part? My team's poor play? No healers? I managed about a 40% to 50% win rate before...now it is less than half that. It may be premades...it may not be, but I do not think it is ONLY me and my skill (or lack thereof).

 

Which means it quickly becomes a complete waste of time queuing when you can’t even complete a daily.

 

Not a complete waste of time. We still earn those white boxes which contain an adrenal or two and a medpac or two, and sometimes a piece of gear, valor, and alignment points. Still, that's not enough. We need MORE participation in PvP, not less. When players view PvP as a gauntlet of frustration with no payout (more on that in a bit), they're not going to be inclined to participate. Here I completely agree with you. We need to be able to advance daily quests even during losses.

 

Those who hate "participation trophies" will mock us for advocating such a thing as it only encourages people to give minimum effort. Normally I agree on that score. However, we're getting that and *LESS* currently. And I predict, along with others, that it is only going to become even more prevalent. Trixxie has some nice compromises in mind:

 

So less people queue and you have a self perpetuating situation of low pops. Hence my perfect storm analogy.

 

Eventually this is going to encroach on primetime pops too (these things always do). It will start to snow ball and it will kill pvp if Bioware don’t make changes before it hits critical mass.

 

Bioware would never consider getting rid of the ranked solo queue and letting “ranked” be a mix of puggers and premades because we know how unfair that would be. So if Bioware are going to continue having a deserter lockout and make losses not count towards the missions, then same consideration should be given to regs as they do to ranked.

 

So if they are determined to keep the same conditions in place, they need either :

1. Totally remove premades from the pug queue and give it a seperate queue (which I know will never happen because we don’t have a large enough population)

Or

2. They need to reduce premade sizes to two man (not perfect, but it is a compromise)

Or

3. They need to make it so losses still count (use the old point system)

Or

4. They need to remove the lock out timer for leaving reg matches (or they need to at least reduce the lock out time by half during low pop times)

 

If they are determined to keep a lock out timer and make it so wins are everything, then would set it up like this :

1. Premades are reduced to maximum of two man.

2. A win gives 3 points and a loss gives 1 point and you need 3 points complete the daily mission and 30 points to complete the weekly.

3. Reduce the lock out timer to 10 mins in high pop environment and 5 mins in a low pop environment. They also need to add a debuff symbol to your character so you can mouse over it and actually “see” how much time is left on it.

4. Remove lock outs completely from lowbies and Mids.

 

To some, your recommendation of allowing players to advance quests even during losses might be considered "participation trophies", but not to me. Some credit for effort should be accorded, I agree. Sports teams don't get the championship trophy for losing, (whatever the sport) but they still get paid. Professional sports leagues would die out if their athletes were not paid, even during losing seasons. They're given BONUSES for winning, but they still have contracts for just participating. Advancing our quests is that payment in my view.

 

I would like to add something to your suggestions: perhaps rewarding players BIG for winning games (the boxes that have gear and so forth) and rewarding the completion of daily quests to a considerably lesser extent. By rewarding players big for winning, the pool of players will increases. Paying them by allowing them to complete the daily and weekly quests, even for lost games, will retain them.

 

None of what I’m suggesting is perfect and it won’t make everyone happy. It’s mostly a compromise to make a bad system more tolerable and slow down the pvp killing snow ball that is Bioware.

 

You have put thought into some solutions, and it shows. I can only hope that Bioware reads your post and gives it due consideration.

 

[The above is a bit confusing...I am tired...have not slept in 24 hours. Bouts of insomnia hit me occasionally. Part of the post I was responding one person, and some parts I was responding to general readers. Too tired to sort it out. Hopefully something of it makes sense to someone.]

Edited by Sappharan
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I see quite a lot of premades on Star forge at the times I play. Both in lowbies, Mids and lvl 75. They really stand out because 75% of my games are arena.

It’s actually really sad because I know some of the names and they are often ranked players. The experience is like putting a solo queue team with an ELO of 1100 up against a grank team with an ELO 1500

Bioware don’t do that to ranked because it’s unfair and everyone would cry about it. But Bioware and many premaders thinks it’s ok to do it in Regs?

I can tell you before this lock out buff was added, I would just leave those matches. Now we can’t and you get stuck into a loop rotation where every other match is against them and they taunt you in chat. It’s actually worse than the toxicity I’ve seen in ranked. They kill any enjoyment you might be having and people stop queuing, which kills the queue faster than it used to.

What’s worse is it also keeps making matches 3v4 against these guys. So not only do you pop against a premade, you also have one less player. But if we decide to leave the match, we get slugged with a 15min deserter timer.

I can categorically say from my experiences in a low pop environment, that the debuff is actually hurting pvp pop times and numbers outside of primetime. It’s doing more harm than good.

 

Good post I agree. Now that every reg is a sweat fest they mine as well do away with ranked and just make every reg warzones have a ranking. The fact that ranked pvpers are forming groups on discord and sweating in regs just shows that they are scared of facing players of equal skill and just want Easy stomps against inexperienced pvpers new to the game and honestly solo queuers In general. You basically just hope that you get a quality premade on your side or your ****ed. I’m an average pvper, I do 10k dps In certain arena matches but the change needs to go.

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Try playing when 75% of your pops are arena and you get ranked quality premade’s vs reg quality pugs. I’m sure you wouldn’t play solo during those matches or you’d stop queuing.

 

Sadly, the new lock out means we can’t even leave now. And with losses not counting towards the missions or conquest anymore, there is a lot of reasons to stop pvping altogether under those circumstances.

 

The whole situation is perfect storm to kill pvp outside of primetime.

 

1. Lock outs mean less players in the queue “if” they decide to leave

2. Losses don’t count towards mission completion or conquest. So totally unbalanced teams and matches are a waste of time.

3. Low pop environment means lots of arena matches.

4. Then add premaders to the mix and it ruins matches and the queue. You will lose 99% of the time.

 

Which means it quickly becomes a complete waste of time queuing when you can’t even complete a daily. So less people queue and you have a self perpetuating situation of low pops. Hence my perfect storm analogy.

 

Eventually this is going to encroach on primetime pops too (these things always do). It will start to snow ball and it will kill pvp if Bioware don’t make changes before it hits critical mass.

 

Bioware would never consider getting rid of the ranked solo queue and letting “ranked” be a mix of puggers and premades because we know how unfair that would be. So if Bioware are going to continue having a deserter lockout and make losses not count towards the missions, then same consideration should be given to regs as they do to ranked.

 

So if they are determined to keep the same conditions in place, they need either :

1. Totally remove premades from the pug queue and give it a seperate queue (which I know will never happen because we don’t have a large enough population)

Or

2. They need to reduce premade sizes to two man (not perfect, but it is a compromise)

Or

3. They need to make it so losses still count (use the old point system)

Or

4. They need to remove the lock out timer for leaving reg matches (or they need to at least reduce the lock out time by half during low pop times)

 

If they are determined to keep a lock out timer and make it so wins are everything, then would set it up like this :

1. Premades are reduced to maximum of two man.

2. A win gives 3 points and a loss gives 1 point and you need 3 points complete the daily mission and 30 points to complete the weekly.

3. Reduce the lock out timer to 10 mins in high pop environment and 5 mins in a low pop environment. They also need to add a debuff symbol to your character so you can mouse over it and actually “see” how much time is left on it.

4. Remove lock outs completely from lowbies and Mids.

 

None of what I’m suggesting is perfect and it won’t make everyone happy. It’s mostly a compromise to make a bad system more tolerable and slow down the pvp killing snow ball that is Bioware.

 

 

 

I don't know what to tell you here. My experience is the complete opposite, but I also play during the servers actual prime time. If I recall you have said you play during the early morning hours because I'm guessing your from Australia. The experience is gonna be different because its not the servers prime time. I know it sucks, but you can't just completely change the game to accomodate low pop hours.

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I don't know what to tell you here. My experience is the complete opposite, but I also play during the servers actual prime time. If I recall you have said you play during the early morning hours because I'm guessing your from Australia. The experience is gonna be different because its not the servers prime time. I know it sucks, but you can't just completely change the game to accomodate low pop hours.

 

Yes, I’m in a Australia.

 

I do understand and agree you shouldn’t change the game for a small percentage of players, But it’s bigger than that if you step back and look at the whole picture and the history of the game. I’m fond of saying that pvp is an eco system and what affects one part affects the rest eventually. This is another example of that.

 

As someone whose been shafted left and right by Bioware’s server closures, Ive been on the front line of watching how outlying problems I experience, have ended up being problems for the whole of the game months down the line. Think of my experiences as the canary in the coal mine.

 

I’ve found after playing this game since launch, that what starts to affect low pop times will eventually make its self known to prime time players.

 

A good example of this was before the last merger. As someone who played the fringes of primetime, I was on a front row seat to see it shrink to an ever small bracket. People who played right in the middle of prime time told me I was lying or imagining it, but 18 months later, those same people were screaming at Bioware for mergers because they couldn’t get as fast pops when they logged in because prime time had shrunk.

 

The thing is, the problems that were affecting the shrinking of primetime back then were generated by Bioware (just like this time) and were mostly fixable if they had listened to the feed back to what some of us were saying. But Bioware either weren’t interested or didn’t get the feed back delivered to the Devs (bad community management). On top of that there was a concerted effort by some to deride or attack people on the forums who were trying to point out what was happening and where it would lead.

 

I get that you aren’t experiencing what I am, I know when I play in prime time (which I do get to do more now since covid), it can be a markedly dIfferent experience. But what affects low pop times, will gradually encroach on prime time and prime time will get shorter. Once that starts to snow ball, it’s very hard to stop it without some artificial means to prop up the population numbers for the queues, aka, server mergers. Which is what they did last time and we all saw how well that worked out for the quality of pvp. More pop, but worse quality because good pvpers ended up leaving.

 

In the past I’ve made certain observations and predictions when it comes to things like this and I’ve mostly been right. Of course, I’ve been wrong a few times too and I not shy to admit if I’m wrong. But if my experience this last week is anything to go on, then I think we will start to see a massive reduction in pvp participation over the next few months if Bioware hold this course without making some tweaks.

 

As for my ideas. They aren’t really that radical because most are just versions of the way things have been before. The only new thing I’ve suggested is a reduce size in the premades to a limit of 2 persons.

 

The other things are just tweaks to the system that Bioware have only recently adopted. I’m personally not a fan of giving stuff for losing. But I don’t think mission completion should be tied to only winning.

By making the losses count towards the missions again, they can still adjust it so that you have to work for the wins (which is what I think Bioware are going for) is what’s needed. Under the old system you got 2 points for a win and 1 point for a loss. What I’m proposing is give 3 points for a win and 1 point for a loss.

 

Then with the lock out timer, reduce it down from 15mins to 10mins during primetime and 5 mins when the queue reverts to popping arena because you already have less people in the queue. Because the last thing you want to do is prevent those people from requeuing for 15 mins or 10 mins. That is a sure fire way to kill the queue fast because when the pops slow, people naturally stop queuing on their own, they don’t need more of an incentive.

There should also not be a lock out timer in lowbies and Mids. It’s already a ghost town most of the time.

 

See the lockout timer is essentially affecting all those other legitimate players in the queue when you get down to 8 players and 1 player leaves. That means for the next 15 mins, the queue will pop 3v4 or 2v3. And you can’t leave or you get a lock out timer yourself. Now you can say stay, but if you are 3 pugs vs 4 man premade, you have no hope of winning 99% of those matches and you won’t get any rewards for staying (ie mission completion).

 

Which brings me to another point I wanted to make a thread about, but will start here. The queue needs to stop back filling 2v2, 3v3 matches once they start unless someone leaves. If you play the first round and it’s 3v3, then it should lock the back fills so the next round is 3v3. It should not give one team a back file and hope the other team gets one too. I’ve played way too many matches this week where you win the first round, but lose the match because the system gives the other team a 4th player after the first round has been completed.

 

There is no magic bullet here to make everyone 100% happy. All Bioware can do is try and tweak what they are doing fast enough so that their policies don’t negatively affect pvp participation and kill it (Which is what’s going to happen if they aren’t careful).

Edited by TrixxieTriss
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