Hello,

Let me say this from the start so there is no confusion here , the post is more oriented twards PVE , not PVP , it may influence that area as well , but , at the moment i feel that assassins aren't pulling their weight as DPS in operations.

My spec has been deception since game release , i lvled as deception , and i played , and still do , deception in both pve and pvp , unfortunately i don't play madness , played a little pre 2.0 ( with the new changes to the AC i stopped completely , since they took the uniqueness of the specc away and it feels like the "special" brother of the Sorc version ) , so i am no expert on that spec , and i believe that so many threads already exist on the matter that 1 more would be pointles.

Pre 2.0 deception was pretty decent , i mean i did what was suposed to do in my eyes , since target burst and relatively decent sustained damage. I was always able to be a good option for any grup from my guild , still am , but , with the changes to the DPS specs that were brought in with 2.0 , i feel that it has become really hard , and some of the devs choices left me scratching my head , i mean Nerve Wrecking talent so high up there and so extraordinarily pointles for this spec , not mention gimping Voltaic Slash and Shock in one fell swoop.

Also , these changes were accentuated even more by the crit nerf that all classes suffered , but left some specs unaffected ( Smash comes to mind ) or even in a better place than before. Now don't get me wrong i do not mind Smash at all , its actually quite fun to play against them since , i love seeing a smasher being a bit confused when his hit is completely negated by Force Shroud

Anyway , back to DPS assassins , I read an interview with one of the devs ( can't remeber the guy's name ) in which he sais that in a raid environment assassins are fantastic , since they benefit so much from other classes debuffs , and he started to put a list of all the skills that help us increase our DPS.

The problem i see here , is that other ACs get the benefit of those debuffs as well , and that means that the gap between our DPS and their DPS is not diminished at all , at least that is how i see it

My suggested changes are as follow :

-Nerve Wracking , move this thing back into the darkness tree , used only 1 time and only from stealth is completely pointles in any environment , PVE and PVP , no matter how you look at it

-Charge Mastery - Surging Charge - now this ability has not been changed from release , now with 2.0 it gives 3% accuracy to all specs , but for deception the specific boost is insignificant. My proposal is increase the armor penetration to 20% , this way we are not dependent on Juggernauts , Mercs and Snipers

-Voltaic Slash - give it back the boost to shock , besides the surging charge trigger , if you feel that a 30% increase is too much of that skill , which IMHO is not since it would put it closer to Discharge , make it 20% on 2 stacks instead

-Since Deception ( just like Operative Concealment ) is more crit dependent that the rest of the classes , i would have to say that we would need a Crit increase talent ( maybe 6% ?! ) , and if you want to make sure that no other AC gets the benefit from it , you can tie it to surging charge , that way it only activates only when Surging charge is selected.

Apologies for the wall of text and if someone can bear to read the info above , please port your thoughts , and feedback on the changes i propose. I am really hoping that someone from the dev. team will get some of the details listed either in here or in other posts like this and will turn things around , since at the moment Depetion certainly does not feel like within 5% of pure DPS classes AKA Marauders and Snipers , like they said a veeeerrryyy long time ago.

The reason is here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=615432

The numbers people got and a dev interview which explains why assassins are meant to be like that.

The reason is here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=615432

 

The numbers people got and a dev interview which explains why assassins are meant to be like that.

Aka nerf sins? Someone must be a sniper.

That went over your head.

That's my dps comparison thread and a dev interview.

The reason is here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=615432

 

The numbers people got and a dev interview which explains why assassins are meant to be like that.

In there it showed the Shadow/Assassin Hybrid to yield the least dps, what hybrid are they talking about. During ptr with the gimmie gear I was putting up 100-200 more dps with 0-18-28 (Mad Maul) than full Deception or Madness. Trading Creeping Terror for Induction/Duplicity is so much more damage with how well Maul scales in 2.0.

All parses were from volunteers.

The spec isn't important, what is is that the parse collecting showed all assassins to parse lower on a dummy.

The developer reply to the pts testing was yes, they are meant to parse lower on a dummy.

Read the whole interview fully to understand their logic.

Hello,

I already read the interview about 3 times and no matter how many times i read it i am still not satified , as i mentioned in my original post , yes , Assassinate; armor debuff and Sith Executioner are all missing , but then again , on a parser all classes are missing some of the execution talents and the armor debuff and so on an so forth , and with all that , they are still pulling ahead of us, and here is where i fail to see how is the Deception build better now , than it was before 2.0.

Also , in a thread from the test servers , they admitted that sin dps is lower than they expected it to be , so my proposed changes are meant to give them an idea of what some of the players ( in this case me ) want for their class , and maybe a confirmation on something that is already in the pipes but they are still unsure if it would be welcomed , i mean come on , our sorc counterparts are pulling more , and again if you take a look at the numbers all the classes are pulling around 100 more DPS than us , a melee class , and again , all of them are missing some details that we are missing as well , someone said that i need to understand their logic behind it , but honestly i can't . Long story short , all classes have one of the handicaps mentioned in the list , but they are still pulling ahead , and i am hoping that will change.

Please try to post some ideas on how this could be done , if you agree or if not , please help me understand their "Logic"

 

Read the whole interview fully to understand their logic.

Ive known about this interview since the day it was released, trust me I understand their logic. I just don't buy it. The claim that Assassin dps suffers more on a dummy than all other classes because the dummy wont enter an execute phase is ridiculous. Just about every other dps class doesn't parse their execute phase or their armor debuffs, so we should all still be relatively close. To say that they will not take low parses from a dummy to reflect the potential of a dps class is lazy. I cant believe you bought their excuses and line of crap to try and shut us up.

Yeah we need more sustainable DPS, I think the burst is in a good spot right now. I've read that interview at least a dozen times and it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth - so EAware's "lone wolf" has to be in a group to be effective at it's job?? That's so lame, and what does the group get from it? Oh wow, my dps is now not AS far under every other AC than before I joined the group? Pfffft... fail.

Yes I'd like the shock buff from VS restored, my lesser-geared healing sorc regularly shocks for more damage - is assassin's training still broken? Armor penetration should be a given for this tree - what do you think we're looking at while we're stealthed?? A crit % in the tree? Oh yeah, it'd be nice but won't be holding my breath on that one given the across-the board NERF on crit chance.

What I think we'll get? A buff on phase walk. All I can hope for is that it's useful and not an utter joke - something that will make us competitive with marauders for a melee dps spot in Ops because right now a marauder is 1st choice and 2nd choice is another marauder.

Ive known about this interview since the day it was released, trust me I understand their logic. I just don't buy it. The claim that Assassin dps suffers more on a dummy than all other classes because the dummy wont enter an execute phase is ridiculous. Just about every other dps class doesn't parse their execute phase or their armor debuffs, so we should all still be relatively close. To say that they will not take low parses from a dummy to reflect the potential of a dps class is lazy. I cant believe you bought their excuses and line of crap to try and shut us up.

I'll make it clear and say I don't like being balanced by "potential maximum" dps should the stars align and all bonuses to dps are possible.

And again, that is not my view of why but a developers view, what I did was collect parses to prove who was doing what on a dummy.

I'll make it clear and say I don't like being balanced by "potential maximum" dps should the stars align and all bonuses to dps are possible.

 

And again, that is not my view of why but a developers view, what I did was collect parses to prove who was doing what on a dummy.

You've got sustained dps, burst dps, survivability, healing, utility and cc to play with when balancing classes. Right now I don't think a sin wins in any of those categories save - possibly - survivability. Of course survivability is the absolute worst of the 5 dimensions for balancing so it needs to be a HUGE difference to mean squat. Unfortunately I'd say healers - just by virtue of healing themselves - have more effective survivability anyway.

Thx for all the replies guys , i am still hoping that someone from the dev team will get to see some of the issues posted on threads like mine , regarding sin dps

As for the utility , id have to say , we coult use a bit of that as well , but i am kind of hesitant to mention my proposal on that department , but what the hell , here goes nothing :

- remove Force Pull from tank spec and make a skill obtainable by all assassins , good for both PVP and PVE i think . For pvp , i don't need to mention why this would be fantastic , and with this DPS specced sin would actually have a chance of getting into rated teams and for PVE , its a nice utility for pulling patrols , off their path and thinning the heard of mobs that may cause some problems ( i'm thinking of the exploding mercs in S&V ,and that would be just 1 example )

@Hugo , i can understand that you are frustrated , that the Madness tree has suffered some major remodelling , and i agree it looks bad , i mean really bad , but i would like to ask you to refrain from venting your anger in a way that not only diminishes the value of your statements but also , places the thread in the rank and file complaints threads that they go through every day .

If possible , i would like this thread to be one where people come and post constructive feedback on the improvement ideas that are exchanged in it so that the Devs can see that the community can be mature and can respond to the different changes with rational thoughs and constructive criticism.

With that said , i would like to encourage all of you to post changes that you think would be beneficial for the DPS specs for assassin.

P.S. : Initially i intended this thread to be oriented towards the Deception Spec , but lets hear about madness as well , since people had time to see what the spec is all about now , and had time to get some gear as well . So please post your thoughts ( in a civil manner ) ; your improvement ideas ; and your feedback on the ideas posted so far .

Ok, i hear you sentiment and will try again:

I actually think that deception, is probably the most fun assassin spec to play right now ( i play OffTandk /buhuu). I really like what they did to it. Replacing the steady cooldown discharge with 3x induction. recklessness is a really fun skill to play with and i love the way you build up stacks and control your dischagre that way.

The "secret" to this spec i feel, is using overcharge saber after you use recklessness. But i feel it to be unnatural. recklessness CD is 1min30seconds, overcharge saber is 2 minutes. It's and awesome combination to use:

1st: recklessness for free discharge,

then overload saber for the additional inductions to get the 2nd discharge built up fast.

And here's the discreptancy:

They dont share cooldowns, so you cant use them together and have a nice and timed attack. I think the cooldown of overload saber should be reduced to 1 mins30secs. That means more discharges and a better way to manage your boost buttons in an organized fashion.

When we raid, im 2-400dps below the marauders constantly. Assassination could get a boost to 10-15% instead of 6. In that way we could be finshiers: an arguement to bring assassin DPS to the raid: they finsish the last 30% fast. ATM the mechanic doesnt have the DPS to bring us on par with other classes, as previously stated by AP in the interview. It's just a fact by now: assassination and the talent below 30% doesnt have enough dps to make up for what we lose the first 70%

I think our DPS problems could be more than solved if you implemented ´various degress of the above.

On madness ..lets just not, it's broken, intentionally.

Thank you for your understanding and for your feedback , interesting ideas about Overcharge Saber , i can see how that would streamline the Deception DPS a bit , but i still think that we have some useless talents ( Nerve Wrecking and Deceptive Power comes to mind - i mean really 10 force for 1 talent point ?! come on... ) that could be either redesigned , moved to different trees that could actually have use for them or removed completely from the game.

Also , i still think that a crit chance increase to this tree , tied to Surging charge so that only deception can benefit from it , would be a way to go . This coupled with them bringing back the shock boost on VS , would pus us on par with the rest of the classes.

As for Madness..., like i previously said i haven't played it much , since i feel that Deception suits assassins better than any other tree ( high damage done fast , then move into the shadows again play-style type of deal ) , but i did mess around with the spec for a bit , and at the moment , i feed that byoware improved the dot style of the class , but took away the uniqueness of the spec and by that i mean that they took away the melee from a meele class , so i think that if they put a skill similar to Duplicity in the Madness tree , so that the sins that use the spec can actually feel like an assassin and use melee atack that is class specific and honestly the trademark of our class , it would go along way twards what madness should be like . I never played the spec after 2.0 , since , i feel like now its the "special" brother of a sorc version of the tree , since it does the same thing , but sins actually have to be in the 4 meter area for procs. But prior to 2.0 , the spec was very interesting to play , it did not have the burst that deception did , but it had a very nice setup , and was not complex at all once you get used to it , and that took about 1 week tops ( played it pvp and pve , although i don't have much time per day to play the game ) to actually comprehend how to play it at a decent level. It was a change of pace and a welcome one , and i feel that Bioware took that away for no reason at all , i mean this is not chess , where you actually need to use ur mind to think 3 moves ahead , so... yeah... it would be very nice if they would find a way to make mad sin the melee DPS they used to be .

Thank you for your understanding and for your feedback , interesting ideas about Overcharge Saber , i can see how that would streamline the Deception DPS a bit , but i still think that we have some useless talents ( Nerve Wrecking and Deceptive Power comes to mind - i mean really 10 force for 1 talent point ?! come on... ) that could be either redesigned , moved to different trees that could actually have use for them or removed completely from the game.

Also , i still think that a crit chance increase to this tree , tied to Surging charge so that only deception can benefit from it , would be a way to go . This coupled with them bringing back the shock boost on VS , would pus us on par with the rest of the classes.

Honestly, if shock is boosted, all the pvp'ers will whine about the imroved crits

I ike the finisher argument better ...get assassination up to 10%. They are used to getting ****ed by it and if it crits, there's a good chance someone will die anyway in pvp.

Guess they wont notice the Overload saber CD either.

The reason why i like inducation mechanic from VS better is, that im focused on the buffarea when i dps, so it fits the overall monitoring situation. another thing is freeing up space on the "important CD's bar area". I'm not so sure we need crit that bad. I just started getting 72 gear and my torparse says near 40 overall. U have to count in they corrigated for statinflation that will have a bigger impact sooner or later.

I think the 10 force frmo deceptive power is awesome to have. It gives me a bigger pool to regenerate in. And that's another sweet thing about deception, the force management is way better. I only rarely sabrestrike if i use my regen CD's correctly. Nevre wracking is for pvp and utter **** for pve, but amazingly, i always go for it.

As for Madness..., like i previously said i haven't played it much , since i feel that Deception suits assassins better than any other tree ( high damage done fast , then move into the shadows again play-style type of deal ) , but i did mess around with the spec for a bit , and at the moment , i feed that byoware improved the dot style of the class , but took away the uniqueness of the spec and by that i mean that they took away the melee from a meele class , so i think that if they put a skill similar to Duplicity in the Madness tree , so that the sins that use the spec can actually feel like an assassin and use melee atack that is class specific and honestly the trademark of our class , it would go along way twards what madness should be like . I never played the spec after 2.0 , since , i feel like now its the "special" brother of a sorc version of the tree , since it does the same thing , but sins actually have to be in the 4 meter area for procs. But prior to 2.0 , the spec was very interesting to play , it did not have the burst that deception did , but it had a very nice setup , and was not complex at all once you get used to it , and that took about 1 week tops ( played it pvp and pve , although i don't have much time per day to play the game ) to actually comprehend how to play it at a decent level. It was a change of pace and a welcome one , and i feel that Bioware took that away for no reason at all , i mean this is not chess , where you actually need to use ur mind to think 3 moves ahead , so... yeah... it would be very nice if they would find a way to make mad sin the melee DPS they used to be .

It would be so easy. There's a million ways of giving it back to us, but they moved it to the tank spec. I'm tanking atm and tbh, i find it kind of annoying to frontal maul. It doesnt do any dmg and it seems like thrash clears the CD of shock better xD

On madness ..lets just not, it's broken, intentionally.

I hope they get rid of this AOE DOT Idea

that in my opinion works for PVE only if you are alone (even without companion) and over geared (and even there Darkness will pull ahead with ease)

and for PVP if the enemy healers are completely Brainless (although that's true for madness single target dmg as well)

we don't have the top DPS, so why make it so easy for a role that's a must have anyway for any group to make Madness completely useless?

madness/balance needs

• it's damage more focused (leave the AOE to Darkness, Assassins don't need two AOE Specialisations)
  
• perhaps add more complexity like a Proc that increases the damage of our abilities (not necessarily maul that's overused by Infi/Decep already) and reduces it's Force cost to keep Madness from becoming a FOTOMFaceroll spec (more effort->more Reward)
  
• DOT Protection
  
• it's utility restored (or rather upped, sincel 2.0 screwed around with CC and Anti-CC for almost all classes)
  
• a Trauma Debuff perhaps tied to the 36pt talent (it's so weak ALL the classes have snare breakers and it's so short even if they wait it out)
  

there are a lot of points concerning PVP in the end tough I don't give a damn about PVP if a Spec/AC/Class/Role isn't working for me there I play another one.

so I don't care all that much about these points

point one and two would satisfy me 100%

While I agree with the OP, that deception sins in general stand last in PvE dps, because of sustained damage, but some of the suggestions are simply not possible, because the burst will go from strong (if not strongest) to killing enemies in 4-5 GCDs in PvP, and most of your suggestions are in the burst department, like increased armor penetration, increased critic.

I would simply tackle the sustained damage builder. You know how marauders do great in PvE dps? Slash. Low cost spammable high damage skill. If voltaic slash gets boosted by say 10-15%, that will probably increase the class sustained damage by 5%, without significantly impacting PvP. Also, you probably want to reduce the costs of some skills like voltaic slash and shock, which also does not impact PvP much, but will help PvE significantly.

If these changes get implementing, deception sin should be within 5% of snipers marauders, while maintaining lead in short parses, like attacking adds.

@ Ottoattack , i do not think that Deception would become OP in pvp if they would actually give us about 6% crit chance , were we OP when we had around 30% crit chance in 1.7 ?! , i don't think so , i mean Smash spec was accepted in rated PVP and it had and still has a much easier setup than us , without fear of filling the resolve of an oponent , besides , a deception assassin is dangerous only if all the attacks crit and with the nerf in that department ive had dischard and shock dealing normal damage with recklesness up , for 3 attacks in a row. On the other hand ive never seen a deception sin being necesarry for Rated PvP , not now , not pre 2.0 . Yes , i agree if we crit we have some great burst , but then again , i think almost all the clases have that at the moment , the only difference i see is that we have stealth and can start a fight when we choose to

Also the armor penetration would not be OP either , with it , instead of a 4,3k Shock , i hit for 4,5k ( talking about crits here ) , same mob type at the same lvl , asked a juggernaut friend to come and use Sundering assault on the mobs so i tested it a bit

Giving the crit boost along with armor penetration would help streamline our damage , in the way that it would make it more constant and more reliable IMHO , both in pvp and in pve

And again , all classes have been buffed , so doing 1,9 regular shocks , and 2,7k discharges ( this is regular , non-crit damage that i get from these skill at the moment ) is kind of loughable , compared to a vengeace juggernaut's shatter that hits for about 3k when non crit , hell i can compare the damage of shock to a juggernauts Vicious Slash damage , it hits for about the same in the non crit department ( less than shock when it crits ) but its spamable.

@underpantsgnomes , Unfortunately DOTs for Deception would not work , since the spec, we can all agree , that is meant for burst and a part of the burst comes from Maul , which is triggered by Spike from stealth and low slash , if we had DOTs it would breack the CC , and that would kind of defeat the purpose of having Mail triggering from Low Slash Voltaic Slash on the other hand could be buffed , but i am not sure if what Ottoattack said would be wise on the damage side , at the moment with the pve bonus set i hit for about 4k with that skill if both attacks crit , and they crit pretty often since we get a 15% crit chance increase for that skill ( it almost hits as hard as Shock )

Honestly i would gladly give up the 6% damage boost from Maul , if they would find it in their heart to give us back the old VS skill , i mean add to the existing effect the damage boost to shock , besides what it does now , and if 30% was too much , make it 20%.

At the moment people , are coming up with hybrids of Madess/Deception for pvp , because VS is not that great , we need to have a skill that is a must have ( well it kind of is for a burst spec but with a bit of forethought the hybrid can do that as well ) but people find it more useful to go into Deception until Crackling Blasts , then putting the rest into madness , i know a sin that runs with a spec like that in pvp and hits like a truck .

Thanks for the feedback and the ideas so far , very interesting , hope more people will post their thoughts and ideas

Please Bioware, do something for PVE players!

I start the game at the begining, two years ago. I started with the Assassin Deception, and I never changed. I don't have any Reroll, cause I LOVE playing with my Assassin.

The fact is, I can't play on high level. Nobody accept me in Nightmare Operations anymore, because they saw a famous test ( never saw it myself ) that shows that the Deception Assassin has a pityfull DPS than a Warrior Marauder or other classes.

Is it possible to do something? I just want to play equally than other players.

Thanks