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ლ(ಠ益ಠლ y u no fix jugg/guardian dps survivability?!


vaelphor

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So awhile back, I remember reading a post where Goerg Zoeller had this to say about the Juggernaut and Guardian advanced classes: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1435443#edit1435443

 

Mobility/Anti Kiting (PvP) – We agree with the sentiment voiced by the community that some Guardians and Juggernauts have to work harder than other classes to stay within effective combat range, putting them at a disadvantage. We intend to address this in an upcoming patch where, as a first step, Force Push will clear the cooldown of Force Leap, granting for more reliable in combat pursuit capabilities to the Advanced Class. Further changes will be made if necessary.

 

Their solution was to have Force Push reset the CD on Force Charge/Force Leap in patch 1.1.0 which was 3 patches ago (9 with small patches and hotfixes).

 

This was definitely a welcomed change and helped with some mobility issues, however it's still possible and rather easy for enemies to stun & run, kite, or out-range the Force Push, especially if nothing is around to burn it on just to reset the Force Charge/Force Leap cooldown. Properly timing defensive CD's and using Chilling Scream/Freezing Force helps a bit if used right though.

 

Since then, the upcoming patch notes have yet to address the second half of Goerg Zoeller's post regarding Jugg/Guardian DPS survivability:

 

DPS spec survivability (PvP and PvE) – The DPS specs on Guardian and Juggernaut are performing to our expectations when it comes to the ability to create damage, especially of the burst variety. However their survivability is lagging behind our expectations, especially in the later game, and we are going to start addressing that particular issue in an upcoming patch.

 

For those who are unaware, if a Jugg/Guardian specs and gears their character properly, they can actually do some decent damage, and yet it still feels lackluster compared to many other classes.

 

My guild has even tested this during the Infernal Council fight in Eternity vault.

My guild, <Mouretsu>, is known for having some of the best PvPer's on Ajunta Pall, and we destroy PvE content without breaking a sweat. Now, we have the same people DPSing the same healthed targets each week, and then we note how many seconds it takes to kill their target, crunching their numbers (doin' math!), and yet both of our Juggs numbers come about 100-380 DPS short of several of our other DPS.

100-380 might not seem like a lot, but it's huge when the average DPS is only ~1,300 (this average includes our Jugg DPS as well). So comparatively to other classes, we still don't do as much DPS as other classes.

 

Now, the problem is that our survivability isn't great... it's good if you spec into the tanking tree for Invincible/Warding Call, but then you'll have to skip key damaging abilities/talents in the DPS trees.

 

So with damage being slightly behind many other classes, and with survivability being poor unless specced 11-14 points into the tanking tree which also lowers our damage, this issue still needs to be addressed.

 

In the Jugg/Guardian class forums, there are already several suggestion threads made by the community regarding this issue, so I won't get into suggested fixes in this post.

 

TLDR: Either buff our damage and leave survivability in it's current state, or give DPS specs the survivability they need to be able to last long enough with our current damage.

Edited by vaelphor
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hmm not talking about tank survivability and how powerful they are because, yes, they are in a good place.

 

...the issue is regarding DPS survivability.

 

our marauders tear through people like paper in PvP, and I always have trouble against great marauders even being a decked out battlemaster with rakata mods in all of my gear. this is because their high dps can support their current survivability; how novel for them!

 

as for kiting, I'm not saying it should be impossible for Sith Warrior/Jedi Knights to be kited. It definitely should be possible because if we stick on someone like glue, they'll probably end up dying. Ranged classes need a good 4-8 seconds of being able to kite a melee because once you're on them, you can mess 'em up!

 

in the case of marauders, you have a snare, slows, and stealth that you can take advantage of to avoid being kited, but it's still going to happen. I get kited often on my Jugg, but once force charge CD is back up, I'm usually fine which is why my complaints are mostly regarding survivability in relation to current dps (something your advanced class shouldn't have issues with).

Edited by vaelphor
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Your out of your mind,

 

to be honest screw jugg needing a buff they are already powerfully over powered for a tank how about mara having those same fixes to help with the damn kiting issue

 

We won't even go into TPS, as a BH put it, "you want TPS, rerole." on average my NON-CRIT attacks are only 600-800 most of his are for 800-1000. You do the math.

 

Juggs are a TANK, DPS is sec. IMO that is, but as far as survivability we have nothing. Our t2 gear has surge rating,.... really. that helps a tank survive, right. By far Jaggs have the lowest amount of HP and survivability. We (if you even play a Jugg) have to rely on a proc, to get 2, THAT IS TWO of our abilities to keep us alive.

 

JUGGS need all the help we can get.

Edited by Xirrok
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Somewhat related:

 

It would great if the devs would BUFF MASTER STRIKE/RAVAGE so that we can actually use it in our rotation as Vigilance/Vengeance. Right now it's weaker than Blade Storm, Plasma Brand, AND Overhead Slash (+ Sith counterparts), and since we generate a full bar of Focus/Rage just as those 3 focus/rage consumers come off CD, Master Strike/Ravage rarely ever gets used. *Maybe* like once every minute, when we use Combat Focus/Sith equivalent.

 

I'm sorry, but that seems really stupid to me considering the talents in the tree would have us believe Master Strike and Ravage should be our cornerstone abilities. It's so bad that we aren't even supposed to put points in the talents related to MS/Rav.

 

If they made Master Strike/Ravage stronger via talents or whatever for Vigilance and Vengeance, it would kill 2 birds with one stone.

Edited by blacksarevok
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There are a few things to increase jugg dps and/or survivability:

 

1. increase the damage of the dots applied through talented Force Scream (Draining Scream) and/or Impale (Eviscerate).

 

2. remove the deadzone for Saber Throw allowing it to be from 0-30 meter range instead of 10-30. this would allow it to be another 30s CD filler while sitting on someone.

 

3. remove the channel on force choke entirely for all specs, but remove the damage & rage generation done by force choke since you'll be able to beat on them while they are choked for 3 seconds.

 

4. increase damage reduction through talents:

- Vengeance tree (Deafening Defense: Reduces all damage taken by [4 / 8]%. Additionally reduces the cooldown of Intimidating Roar by [7.5 seconds / 15 seconds].

- Rage tree (Dark Resonance: Increases the critical strike damage of all Force attacks by [10 / 20 / 30]%, and reduces all damage taken by [2 / 4 / 6 ]%). (the damage reduction difference between the trees would be due to the increased damage that rage can put out)

 

5. increase damage reduction through forms/stances (6% reduced damage while in shien/shi-cho form)

 

there are several little helpful suggestions, and these were honestly just some ideas i pulled out of my butt over the past 10 minutes.

Edited by vaelphor
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Sith Warrior/Jedi Knights are realy easy to kite get out of 5 ft range,but not over 14ft,no charge,slow em as much as you can,if they ever reach you,kb or stun or root etc,they never get you.

 

yeah, an operative guildy i was dueling did exactly what you mentioned, and i honestly couldn't do much to him whatsoever because he was just out of my range for everything as vengeance spec. maybe with obliterate it wouldn't be so bad, but even with the hop, you still land where the person was when you hit it, so if they were in motion, it wouldn't matter cuz you'd get nowhere... i don't see a reason why force charge or saber throw have deadzones in the first place.

 

i was able to catch him a few times when i juked the opposite direction he was kiting to get 10 meters on him to charge, choke, and slow which helped until he stunned/rooted me with something that basically reset my efforts.

Edited by vaelphor
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obliterate will not work since you jump on the enemy pos you use it,so you are again 5+ ft away.

Edit as jugg: aoe slow(hope he does not slow),kb+charge,purge his cc instant,but chances to get kited are high,without cds you will not get a decent player

 

Edit2: Ravage does not helps at all,a self root style(even if enemy dies etc it roots you still 2sec),why can we not use it on the run....

Edited by gwrtheyn
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2. remove the deadzone for Saber Throw allowing it to be from 0-30 meter range instead of 10-30. this would allow it to be another 30s CD filler while sitting on someone.

 

This is the four-piece PvE set bonus, but the four-piece PvP set bonus is way better. The one thing I notice about Rage spec is it is the worst for generating rage (go figure). An extra rage generating ability like Saber Throw from point-blank (with the talent that stacks two sunders as well) would be nice, but I'm not sure it's necessary and may be too powerful when it comes to bursting down an enemy after a Smash (as Rage).

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This is the four-piece PvE set bonus.

 

that's what gave me the idea for it... i have my 4 piece rakata for pve, and i found myself using saber throw a ton in operations which made playing a jugg feel less clunky at times (especially when rage starved).

Edited by vaelphor
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Their solution was to have Force Push reset the CD on Force Charge/Force Leap in patch 1.1.0 which was 3 patches ago (9 with small patches and hotfixes).

 

Not to say that they can't be kited easily... he never did say it was patch 1.1.0. His exact quote was a later patch. Later patch could be months away.

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my concern is that it was brought up awhile ago, and since then, there have been patches that included buffs and mostly nerfs to other classes, and yet we still have no clue how the jugg issues are being addressed if they are at all.

 

if they've identified an issue, and they address it's a concern they want to fix, yet there is little to no information it in the meantime regarding how or when they'll get it to a good place, then the issue is still persisting with them knowing it's not where it should be.

 

also, when classes are OP, they get nerfed in a timely manner (sometimes too much of a nerf though), but when a class is lacking, they say they are aware of it, but do nothing to fix it in a timely manner? that's my gripe.

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my concern is that it was brought up awhile ago, and since then, there have been patches that included buffs and mostly nerfs to other classes, and yet we still have no clue how the jugg issues are being addressed if they are at all.

 

if they've identified an issue, and they address it's a concern they want to fix, yet there is little to no information it in the meantime regarding how or when they'll get it to a good place, then the issue is still persisting with them knowing it's not where it should be.

 

also, when classes are OP, they get nerfed in a timely manner (sometimes too much of a nerf though), but when a class is lacking, they say they are aware of it, but do nothing to fix it in a timely manner? that's my gripe.

 

They've explained a few times on the forums and via Q&A blogs the following things:

 

1) They are in post-launch bug fixing mode. Major balance changes and content updates will be reserved for major content patches. Wait until 1.2 to see more drastic changes to all of the classes.

 

2) They will prioritize changing any abusive mechanics that break gameplay and make the game unfun for other players, yes, but everything else will have to wait. For instance, being 4 shotted by an Operative/Scrapper? Not fun, so they got nerfed with no compensation (yet).

 

However, healer ACs having a crazy easy PvE leveling experience thanks to healing + 60 sec CC? Doesn't really break the game for other players so nothing will change until 1.2 earliest. Most likely the other classes will be given tools to perform equally in the same situations but it's not a pressing matter by any means.

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The concept of kitting is not to get out of certain range, it's to get out of their melee range period, even if they closed you down with force charge, a smart pvper will always be able to exploit a guardians dependency on melee attacks and lack of mobility, and to add to the fact that the tanking tree is virtually useless in PVP, apart from the second shield you get, even so overall a pure tank is weak for it's slightly above average survivability but abysmal DPS, IMO the tanking tree should be upgraded period to give the guardian more survivability especially in pvp situations but leave the dps alone for now. The Guardian properly spec should be the best tank in the game period, bar none, given their Dps liability, their range vulnerability and such. A few simple fix would be to provide a tanking guardian an ability that makes enure not reduce your minimum HP upon retirement, and have a spec that gives both shields reduced cooldown, and making shield generators actually useful in pvp. That way a tank can be a tank, and people will actually start speccing in tanks instead of getting fake guardian tankers for ops, Hm etc, pretending they are able to tank just because they can taunt.
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