IMPORTANT ANNOUCEMENT: THIS DEBATE IS CLOSED

 

Victor: Darth Traya

 

Second Place: Prince Xizor

 

Prince Xizor: 39

 

Darth Traya: 49

 

Exar Kun: 28

 

May I turn your attention to Bonus Round: Darth Revan vs Prince Xizor which will determine who takes 3rd place.

 

Thanks for debating! That is all.

Here are the results, as you can see the reason I could call it without attempting a tally was because it wasn't actually that close. If you're still confused I'd ask you to look over the thread again, you'll find that few attempts were successfully made to counter arguments against Traya, and I did raise the question on multiple occasions of what would happen between Traya and Xizor, specifically if Xizor believed Traya to be dead. No arguments were forthcoming. Admittedly I should have raised it again, that was a mistake on my part (there goes my streak of happy Kaggath endings. )

 

Concerning the debate, yes Revan is outclassed (although not by that much considering Interdictors were compared to Victory-class Star Destroyers and the Centurion was one of the most powerful vessels of its time) but he is not outnumbered. Unlike Xizor, he can has a vast fleet ready and waiting, while Xizor has to procure one.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Beniboybling

Here are the results, as you can see the reason I could call it without attempting a tally was because it wasn't actually that close. If you're still confused I'd ask you to look over the thread again, you'll find that few attempts were successfully made to counter arguments against Traya, and I did raise the question on multiple occasions of what would happen between Traya and Xizor, specifically if Xizor believed Traya to be dead. No arguments were forthcoming. Admittedly I should have raised it again, that was a mistake on my part (there goes my streak of happy Kaggath endings. )

 

Concerning the debate, yes Revan is outclassed (although not by that much considering Interdictors were compared to Victory-class Star Destroyers and the Centurion was one of the most powerful vessels of its time) but he is not outnumbered. Unlike Xizor, he can has a vast fleet ready and waiting, while Xizor has to procure one.

 

I still doubt that bit, looking at the specs the Interdictors doesn't look anywhere near comparable to a Victory-Class Star Destroyer. Though Xizor could just use MC80 Liberty Type Star Cruisers to counter, their shielding makes them able to survive against heavy enemy combat ships. Right the Centurion was one of the most powerful vessels of its time....of its time being the keywords here, compared to what Xizor has it really just seems to be light an escort ship now.

 

Xizor still has a fleet waiting, he has one at Courscant.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

I'm sorry but if what Aurbere is saying is correct (which i have no doubt as he is very good at lore and such) then he should have noticed one of the terms of the Kaggath.

"Technology level is universal (unless considered archaic or advanced at the time): blaster fire, armouring, lightsabers etc. are all the same regardless of period, all that matters is size, quantity and power."

So from Aurbere's argument we can see that some of Revans fleet are archaic (Being around since Naga Sadow's time) and so their inferior tech does not matter. All that matters is the fact Revan has them at his disposal. Just wanted to clarify that. Not that anyone really cares but for me i go with Revan. (Not a fanboy!)

I'm sorry but if what Aurbere is saying is correct (which i have no doubt as he is very good at lore and such) then he should have noticed one of the terms of the Kaggath.

"Technology level is universal (unless considered archaic or advanced at the time): blaster fire, armouring, lightsabers etc. are all the same regardless of period, all that matters is size, quantity and power."

So from Aurbere's argument we can see that some of Revans fleet are archaic (Being around since Naga Sadow's time) and so their inferior tech does not matter. All that matters is the fact Revan has them at his disposal. Just wanted to clarify that. Not that anyone really cares but for me i go with Revan. (Not a fanboy!)

 

Your right, however...that doesn't change the armament, it doesn't change their hyperdrives or their speed. Which Xizor's ships still outclass Revan's ships. Even equalized those Derriphan ships are still piss poor, cause their autoblasters are not accurate.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

Your right, however...that doesn't change the armament, it doesn't change their hyperdrives or their speed. Which Xizor's ships still outclass Revan's ships.

 

I guess speed and hyperdrive is also considered universal.

Your right, however...that doesn't change the armament, it doesn't change their hyperdrives or their speed. Which Xizor's ships still outclass Revan's ships. Even equalized those Derriphan ships are still piss poor, cause their autoblasters are not accurate.

 

Well it kind of does change that. Armament comes under "blaster fire" and hyperdrive and speed are universal. Also autoblasters come under the rule as well. Otherwise this Kaggath would be a total whitewash with all the modern people decimating the older aged ones. Not a true test at all.

I guess speed and hyperdrive is also considered universal.

 

That can't really work, the sith fighters are already stated as going only so fast which is only 1, 250 km/h(in atmosphere conditions, I don't see them going so fast in space flight.) The hyperdrives are staying as they are, cause no matter what they are all the same being able to go from point A to point B in such and such time, though in this case Xizor's ships are faster in getting there.

 

Going back to the fighters, they all vary in speeds so I dunno how they can be equalized if it all varies from fighter to fighter.

 

Well it kind of does change that. Armament comes under "blaster fire" and hyperdrive and speed are universal. Also autoblasters come under the rule as well. Otherwise this Kaggath would be a total whitewash with all the modern people decimating the older aged ones. Not a true test at all.

 

I was speaking in terms of armament numbers, probably should have added the number bit.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

OK I think I should put down some K-Canon on this. According to Wookieepedia:

By modern galactic standards they were fairly small, slow, and ungainly, but the Sith battleships were among the most powerful and fearsome warships of their time, despite sporting no shields. One vessel was said to succumb only to the firepower of six main Republic warships, thanks to its heavy armor, and even then was able to cripple or destroy at least one of the opposing ships.

At the time they were considering technologically advanced, so the bold half of the above quote still stands. They can therefore take on six Republic warships of any period, have heavy armor, a Class 2 hyperdrive and their autoblasters are equivalent to turbolasers or whatever current era equivalent. They do not however have shields (Revan feasibly outfit them with shields however). If you want an in-Kaggath reason for this, lets say Revan gave them an upgrade.

 

And concerning Interdictors, they are the equivalent to Victory-class Star Destroyers and the Centurion is the equivalent to a Imperial I-class Star Destroyer - being a capital ship.

 

The reasons for the above being that Revan would be at a disadvantage in such a Kaggath as this purely because of the era his powerbase existed in.

 

NOTE: Concerning hyperdrives, attribute the Class based on the class of the ship. A fighter with hyperdrive capablities would therefore have Class I, a personal fighter likely 0.5, and battlecruisers 2.0.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Beniboybling

Edit: Wait hold on a sec...so what about the speeds of fighters? The autoblasters are still gonna be inaccurate. Now are you adding armaments onto the ships or keeping as what is stated?

 

Now wait a minute, why are you changing their hyperdrives? Before they weren't changed, I don't really see the point in changing the hyperdrive given they all do the same thing to varying degrees.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

Edit: Wait hold on a sec...so what about the speeds of fighters? The autoblasters are still gonna be inaccurate. Now are you adding armaments onto the ships or keeping as what is stated?

 

Now wait a minute, why are you changing their hyperdrives? Before they weren't changed.

No, same number, different level of power. Still inaccurate (although more powerful) just not weak because they are autoblasters.

 

And I'm only making changes now because it is necessary, before this was never really a problem. In this case it only really applies to the Derriphan though.

No, same number, different level of power. Still inaccurate (although more powerful) just not weak because they are autoblasters.

 

And I'm only making changes now because it is necessary, before this was never really a problem. In this case it only really applies to the Derriphan though.

 

Oh ok, well then Xizor's ships will still do more damage(or least the Venator) being Revan's ships just seem to be outfitted with medium turbolasers for the most part. Not to say Revan's ships won't do damage, it'll just be less then what Xizor's ships can dish out. Throw in the MC80 liberty cruisers, then its gonna take a lot of firepower cause them shields can withstand a lot.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

Oh ok, well then Xizor's ships will still do more damage(or least the Venator) being Revan's ships just seem to be outfitted with medium turbolasers for the most part. Not to say Revan's ships won't do damage, it'll just be less then what Xizor's ships can dish out. Throw in the MC80 liberty cruisers, then its gonna take a lot of firepower cause them shields can withstand a lot.

 

I agree on that point. Revan's cruisers may have been 'upped' in firepower, but they don't have the same number of batteries and weapons systems as their new equivalents. So in actuality, they are still inferior to Xizor's vessels.

 

@Beni But before we talk about battles, let's talk about speed. Where is Revan's fleet originating from? I would assume Korriban, Malachor, or Lehon. The reason I ask is that the time it takes for Revan to get to Coruscant is time for Xizor to prepare. And let's face it, the more time Xizor has, the worse it gets for Revan.

 

Edit: And what era of the galaxy is this taking place? Xizor's era? Revan's era? Or when the galaxy is at its strongest (Probably NJO era or Legacy era)?

Edited February 4, 2013 by Aurbere

I agree on that point. Revan's cruisers may have been 'upped' in firepower, but they don't have the same number of batteries and weapons systems as their new equivalents. So in actuality, they are still inferior to Xizor's vessels.

 

@Beni But before we talk about battles, let's talk about speed. Where is Revan's fleet originating from? I would assume Korriban, Malachor, or Lehon. The reason I ask is that the time it takes for Revan to get to Coruscant is time for Xizor to prepare. And let's face it, the more time Xizor has, the worse it gets for Revan.

Well this Kaggath is a little different from the previous battle. Namely because Kun led crusades while Revan led a war. Observe. Yellow is Revan, and Revan controlled much of the the Mid and Outer Rim, and had shipyards in the Colonies and the Core Worlds. And if we refer to our Hyperspace Travel Times Table, that means that Revan could likely mobilise a sizable fleet to attack Coruscant in roughly 4 days. Unless he sends a smaller fleet from one of his shipyards which would cut the time down to less than a day. But I think he'd attack with a larger force.

 

Thought: the positioning of Revan's shipyards in the Core and the Colonies means Xizor can attack them quickly, which could give him an edge in several respects...

Granted, Xisor's fleet may have higher firepower. But im assuming his tactical skill isnt as good as Revan's. Revan did win a war afterall. History has proven time and time again that firepower and better equipment means nothing if you can use good tactical strategies. I reckon Revan would most definitely examine the possibilities and pick the best one for him. Maybe a trap of some sort or force Xizor into an area where his firepower could mean nothing...? Just a thought!

Granted, Xisor's fleet may have higher firepower. But im assuming his tactical skill isnt as good as Revan's. Revan did win a war afterall. History has proven time and time again that firepower and better equipment means nothing if you can use good tactical strategies. I reckon Revan would most definitely examine the possibilities and pick the best one for him. Maybe a trap of some sort or force Xizor into an area where his firepower could mean nothing...? Just a thought!

 

In order for that to happen, several things have to occur.

 

1. Xizor has to be a complete dunce

2. Xizor's intelligence network is gone

3. Xizor has to play aggressive

 

Basically, Xizor and the Black Sun have to turn into a petty small-time crime syndicate in order for that to happen. Not exactly plausible.

I actually think Xizor has the advantage from a starfighter standpoint, we can compare Revan's starfighters to TIE fighters, which also lacked shields (seems to be a running theme with Sith).

 

The starfighters Xizor can yield would be superior to Revan's starfighters in every aspect, because Xizor didn't just go for quantity, he went for quality (and he had the credits to get both).

 

If we go with Revan's capital ships being comparable to Xizor's capital ships (let's face it if Revan had shielding technology his capital ships would have shields, just like an ISD does), then Revan has at the very least an equal footing with Xizor when it comes to capital ship combat.

 

However, when the capital ships are about evenly matched (and if Xizor has Mon Cal cruisers then it doesn't matter if Revan's ships had more guns, Mon Cal cruisers had so many shield generator systems that they could replace a shield generator in the middle of combat without losing shield integrity in areas), we have to look at the Starfighters.

 

Xizor's forces would be using starfighters that are on a whole different level from the starfighters Revan would be using. While a dogfight is determined by the skill of a pilot, having the better aircraft is always a plus.

The Mon Cal cruisers has shields for their shields! Shieldception!

 

"Here have some shields for your shields, so you can shield while you shield."

Edited February 4, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

So there's been a lot of arguments like "Oh, Xizor has to gather his fleet." But this logic makes no sense. If you argue that Xizor has to gather his fleet, so does Revan.

 

Who's to say that Revan's fleets are ready to go while Xizor's are not?

 

If this is to be a legit argument considered, the same will have to be said for Revan. Revan won't be able to mobalize his forces anywhere near as fast as Xizor. Giant fleets such as Revan's are hard to move. It's not as if from "GO" he can start sending out fleets. And if he can, so can Xizor.

 

Basically, it's unfair to assume that Revan's forces will all be in ready-to-go fleets while Xizor's are spread out. If Xizor has to prepare his forces, so does Revan. Which puts the Darth at a disadvantage.

So there's been a lot of arguments like "Oh, Xizor has to gather his fleet." But this logic makes no sense. If you argue that Xizor has to gather his fleet, so does Revan.

 

Who's to say that Revan's fleets are ready to go while Xizor's are not?

 

If this is to be a legit argument considered, the same will have to be said for Revan. Revan won't be able to mobalize his forces anywhere near as fast as Xizor. Giant fleets such as Revan's are hard to move. It's not as if from "GO" he can start sending out fleets. And if he can, so can Xizor.

 

Basically, it's unfair to assume that Revan's forces will all be in ready-to-go fleets while Xizor's are spread out. If Xizor has to prepare his forces, so does Revan. Which puts the Darth at a disadvantage.

You make a good point, but I think the logic there was that Xizor would have to buy up a navy first, while Revan already has one to hand. However its likely that Xizor had several fleets available across the Outer Rim. But then again I doubt Xizor has a large enough force at hand to take Revan head on...

 

Oh and concerning the Mon Calamari Star Cruisers, the Black Sun didn't actually use them (and even then only one) until 137 ABY when Xizor was no longer in power - however it is feasible to say he could buy some.

Edit: And what era of the galaxy is this taking place? Xizor's era? Revan's era? Or when the galaxy is at its strongest (Probably NJO era or Legacy era)?

Doesn't really matter TBH as all other organisations are not present.

You make a good point, but I think the logic there was that Xizor would have to buy up a navy first, while Revan already has one to hand. However its likely that Xizor had several fleets available across the Outer Rim. But then again I doubt Xizor has a large enough force at hand to take Revan head on...

 

Oh and concerning the Mon Calamari Star Cruisers, the Black Sun didn't actually use them (and even then only one) until 137 ABY when Xizor was no longer in power - however it is feasible to say he could buy some.

 

Doesn't really matter TBH as all other organisations are not present.

 

He can buy anything! Credits make the galaxy go.....uh round? Oooo idea! He builds huge cannons on his ships, that literally fire credits at his enemies. Talk about taking the "throwing money at all your problems until they go away" literally. Ok yes, I am being a rascal right now sorry.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

Am i the only one thinking that these Kaggath's are slowly becoming a bit too unfair in a sense? Don't get me wrong, i love seeing how people's opinions turn out. But it's getting to the point where all i'm seeing is things such as:

"Xizor was a crime lord and rich. He buys anything he wants! So he'll buy a fleet of Mon Cal cruisers bigger than any fleet in history then he'll crush so and so"

Now i know nobody has kinda said that yet! But i wouldn't put it past some people. Surely there has to be a limit to what credits can do?

Am i the only one thinking that these Kaggath's are slowly becoming a bit too unfair in a sense? Don't get me wrong, i love seeing how people's opinions turn out. But it's getting to the point where all i'm seeing is things such as:

"Xizor was a crime lord and rich. He buys anything he wants! So he'll buy a fleet of Mon Cal cruisers bigger than any fleet in history then he'll crush so and so"

Now i know nobody has kinda said that yet! But i wouldn't put it past some people. Surely there has to be a limit to what credits can do?

Of course, and that limit is time. Xizor has loads of credits but he has to convert that cash into a fleet, whereas Revan has a fleet on hand.

Am i the only one thinking that these Kaggath's are slowly becoming a bit too unfair in a sense? Don't get me wrong, i love seeing how people's opinions turn out. But it's getting to the point where all i'm seeing is things such as:

"Xizor was a crime lord and rich. He buys anything he wants! So he'll buy a fleet of Mon Cal cruisers bigger than any fleet in history then he'll crush so and so"

Now i know nobody has kinda said that yet! But i wouldn't put it past some people. Surely there has to be a limit to what credits can do?

 

Not really, if you have the money, you can pretty much do whatever you want, the only thing you have to worry about is time. It'll take time to get things organized and sent to Xizor's troops and the like, though he does have a standing fleet already he can make it bigger with time.

 

"He who controls the money, controls the market and in turn controls the galaxy." So to speak.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

Am i the only one thinking that these Kaggath's are slowly becoming a bit too unfair in a sense? Don't get me wrong, i love seeing how people's opinions turn out. But it's getting to the point where all i'm seeing is things such as:

"Xizor was a crime lord and rich. He buys anything he wants! So he'll buy a fleet of Mon Cal cruisers bigger than any fleet in history then he'll crush so and so"

Now i know nobody has kinda said that yet! But i wouldn't put it past some people. Surely there has to be a limit to what credits can do?

 

Xizor's main advantage is that he has a large amount of credits. But he's more than just bottomless pockets.

Black Sun's influence was tremendous. They had a practically limitless amount of credits; more than enough to finance any operation they wished to complete. They ruled the underworld and few individuals or organizations dared to cross them or pose a threat to them

Edited February 5, 2013 by Warren-Stride

Xizor's main advantage is that he has a large amount of credits. But he's more than just bottomless pockets.

 

He is also patient and calculating, not letting his emotions get the better of him so he doesn't make rash choices. He could wait years, before acting out the plans that he made.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi