Thoughts?

Ok so I just had some time to do some math.

 

Can an actual theory crafter convince me that the 45% increase to burning blade and overall 6% increase to burnmaster and an increase from 3% to 5% additional damage on all melee attacks actually outweighs the 60% nerf to freezing force? Because if vigi is supposed to be 5% OVER the average/target dps I don't see why we are getting what is a net decrease in dps.

I wouldn't assume it's a net decrease in dps. Calculating what these changes will do with dps exactly is quite tricky due to the uptime of Bloodmaster and Chilling Scream completely moving out of the rotation, making room for another filler.

Properly calculating the impact of these changes will probably require some modelling like Bant's stuff. I wouldn't expect anyone to do so considering we'll actually be able to play around with these changes on October 10th.

I suppose in the meantime all we can do is hope that Bioware actually properly tested these changes and it does indeed lead to a dps increase.

Can an actual theory crafter convince me that the 45% increase to burning blade and overall 6% increase to burnmaster actually outweighs the 60% nerf to freezing force?

It occurs to me I should have engaged in a simple thought exercise yesterday. Case A is that they're nerfing base damage by 60%. Case B is that they're nerfing scaling damage by 60%. Case C is that they're nerfing both base and scaling damage by 60%. Using Adje Yo's NIM raiding value of 10k, the post-nerf values would be 9k, 5k, and 4k respectively.

I was tempted not to even post anything on this, as the proposed compensatory buffs are quite generous if Case A is true. Needless to say, I'm still worried that we're going to get Case C, but I already have an even more obnoxious build in mind if they go that route. That said, I think the following is something Keith should be considering, assuming he isn't already.

Don't outright nerf an ability. Normalize its damage range across weak and strong gear. Buff the base damage value and nerf the scaling component to achieve the desired target result at the high end. This achieves the desired result, while being far more considerate of newer players, less skilled players, poorly geared players, and players who don't stack dps stats (ie true tanks).

Using Adje Yo's 10k NIM value, and the base damage on the utility of ~1750 (which isn't even its true base, but it is the damage value on a naked character), I would argue for a buff of 60% to that base value, with a nerf of ~15% to its scaling coefficient. This would give a new base value of ~2500 damage, while Adje Yo's NIM build would see a nerf of 10% to 9k damage. Builds falling in between would see a damage increase on the low end, and a less impactful damage decrease when falling short of full 248s min-maxed for mastery/power (seems to be Adje Yo's build).

I'm pretty sure the scaling component from Chilling Scream is getting hit by this nerf, not just its base damage.

If it's just the base damage, Chilling Scream would still be used in a single rotation, while Musco's post made it quite clear they don't want it to be used in single target rotations

Is this the first aoe dot you've come across in SWTOR? They're pretty much all like this, but most of the rest are better because they're ranged and more easily applied/maintained.

Death Field can't be spammed, Chilling Scream can. What other "fire and forget" AOE dots are there?

Well if they was smart like I am I would change the utility to multiple Force Choke and be done...

You gotta love Force Choke and it would give more incentive to take the 15 seconds reduction utility like they do with every other class for instance (Predation).

But I'd honestly love to see Rage Force Crush spread via Smash (elemental/kinetic damage). But I'd want it for my Fury Marauder too!

Awesome. Now my Jugg can get off a harder hitting force scream before getting globalled in ranked. Really, really what the class desperately needed...

Lol this is what I'm worried about...

I'm hoping the nerfs at least equalize the buffs but not holding my breath.

Lowering the damage of an AoE ability so it is used as an AoE ability instead of being part of the standard single target rotation makes sense at least to me, I struggle to comprehend how you are unable to understand that simple readjustment. Regardless if the adjustment is by 60% or 6%, an AoE ability shouldn't deal more damage to one target than a single target ability, lol.

What world are you on where you think an 8k dot over the course of 8 seconds deals more damage to a single target than a single target ability does? Excuse me but my impale(single target) tooltip shows 12923-14337, it does more damage to a single target than chilling scream will ever do non crit or crit. The actual problem with chilling scream is it's AOE potential, not it's single target potential lmao.

What world are you on where you think an 8k dot over the course of 8 seconds deals more damage to a single target than a single target ability does? Excuse me but my impale(single target) tooltip shows 12923-14337, it does more damage to a single target than chilling scream will ever do non crit or crit. The actual problem with chilling scream is it's AOE potential, not it's single target potential lmao.

Impale deals energy damage which is reduced by armor while chilling scream is elemental damage which is not reduced by armor. In the top vengeance parse, the average damage per activation for chilling scream was around 14.6k while impale had an average damage per activation of 13.9k.

Alright,

Vengeance DPS was not affected negatively. At least for me.

10106.14 DPS

So at least with Veng, the change is good. Gj BW

Alright,

 

Vengeance DPS was not affected negatively. At least for me.

 

10106.14 DPS

 

So at least with Veng, the change is good. Gj BW

Based on my dummy parsing it doesn't get me much either. Still not sure how bad aoe nerf it is.

Regarding AOE nerf, which I did not try yet (for that measure I'm using last group before Revan HM 8M), my guess it's from 27-30k DPS to ~ 22k, which should still keep it above most, if not all classes.

Now for proper AOE you will have to take the utility for armor reduction on slam (which was mostly taken anyway), and with rotation: sunder -> shatter -> slam -> sweeping slash (untill shatter dot is about to run out)

Alright,

 

Vengeance DPS was not affected negatively. At least for me.

 

10106.14 DPS

 

So at least with Veng, the change is good. Gj BW

So basically the same dps but without Chilling Scream?

So basically the same dps but without Chilling Scream?

Actually, at least for me and my "rotation", yes!

Actually, at least for me and my "rotation", yes!

what about your stats? mastery/crit/alacrity

what about your stats? mastery/crit/alacrity

7296 Mastery

3964 Power

1891 Crit

1077 Alacrity

759 Accuracy

I was running ~1500 alac, but changed 4 augs to mastery for increased DPS.

Atm 43.89% Crit and 71.45% Multiplier

7296 Mastery

3964 Power

1891 Crit

1077 Alacrity

759 Accuracy

 

I was running ~1500 alac, but changed 4 augs to mastery for increased DPS.

Atm 43.89% Crit and 71.45% Multiplier

thanks mate very useful. I'll try it.

Personal notes for anyone interested:

Was finding alacrity wasn't pushing as hard anymore. I can't seem to get above 44 apm for the life of me. Anyone else having this issue?. I dropped my alacrity to about 8-9% and crit to 43%. Filled the rest with mastery augs and I'm maintaining 9.9-10.1 on average. Also I don't use the crit/accu stim. I use a mastery/power stim with 2E 3A of accu.

I've basically replaced FF with slash and FP in single target. You get pretty much the same results. I didn't previously use CS in AOE rotation, so I'VE seen an increase in AOE dps now that I'm taking the CS utility. IDK how many peeps were still using it before.

Parse

Was finding alacrity wasn't pushing as hard anymore. I can't seem to get above 44 apm for the life of me. Anyone else having this issue?.

Parse

Definitely noticed as well. That's why i lowered my alacrity to ~1100, might even go a bit more down.

It might be something with GCD lowering only if you move it by 0.1 sec. Because of rounding. - from what I saw on other threads. So unless you have something like 1900, it's not very useful above 1000. Bud need to find the exact spot. Anyway, having a bit more power/mastery helps with initial burst, which can be useful on many fights.

If you weren't using cyclone/sweeping Slash in AoE you're doing it wrong.

Shatter/Plasma one target, spread via smash and cyclone away

Personal notes for anyone interested:

 

Was finding alacrity wasn't pushing as hard anymore. I can't seem to get above 44 apm for the life of me. Anyone else having this issue?. I dropped my alacrity to about 8-9% and crit to 43%. Filled the rest with mastery augs and I'm maintaining 9.9-10.1 on average. Also I don't use the crit/accu stim. I use a mastery/power stim with 2E 3A of accu.

 

I've basically replaced FF with slash and FP in single target. You get pretty much the same results. I didn't previously use CS in AOE rotation, so I'VE seen an increase in AOE dps now that I'm taking the CS utility. IDK how many peeps were still using it before.

 

Parse

Ki'Su'Tchan

Vengeance: 10270.9 DPS

Rage: 9852.14 DPS

7599 Mastery

3964 Power

1891 Critical

789 Alacrity

759 Acc

According to http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=933260&page=4, which i have confirmed with my internal parsing, go for either 7.15% or 15.39% alacrity bonus. The rest will not have other effect than wasted stats.

If you weren't using cyclone/sweeping Slash in AoE you're doing it wrong.

Shatter/Plasma one target, spread via smash and cyclone away

Hey this is what I do for aoe XD glad yo know I'm doing something right.

If you weren't using cyclone/sweeping Slash in AoE you're doing it wrong.

Shatter/Plasma one target, spread via smash and cyclone away

Do you only use Shatter or do you cycle between Impale and Shatter? Because If you only spread your shatter, you're going to have to delay Vengeful Slam, which seems pretty bad to me.

Do you only use Shatter or do you cycle between Impale and Shatter? Because If you only spread your shatter, you're going to have to delay Vengeful Slam, which seems pretty bad to me.

Yes, Shatter first, then Impale. Keeping at least some bleed on the targets is very important.