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Let's discuss GF drops/kicks


DimmuJanKaarl

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I'd love it if we get a dev to chime in on this though I realize that seems pretty rare to get a dev to discuss game mechanics that appear to be working as intended, but I'd really like to talk about why or how the group find drop/kick process is working as intended.

 

I've recently encountered two scenarios that were exceptionally frustrating, though neither are at all new nor the first time I've encountered them. First I'll list the two common scenarios that expose clear problems with how the group finder drop/kick process works, then I'll list my opinions on why they don't make sense and/or what I see the issues are.

 

As an aside: I won't mention ops or uprisings, because the former are seemingly never pugged or at least mostly only pop with premades, and the latter because, for whatever reason, the devs give virtually no incentive to run them so apparently no one ever queues for them; yet another case, like crafting, macrobinoculars/seeker droid, space on rails, etc.where the devs just seem to have abandoned the system altogether and made it de facto defunct in the game, and people just don't really run them, at least not by and large.

 

Two scenarios: You (finally) manage to get a group finder group to pop for a VM or MM flashpoint to pop, and:

 

1.) The pug is just horrible. Yes, everyone generally says that's the dice roll: pugs can be really awful because people can be really awful, and you have 3X the chance of grouping with someone who's awful (more on what that means to me later). So you (quite reasonably) drop group and are quite literally *punished* with a 20 minute ban on grouping with the group finder.

 

2.) You yourself realize that you're a hindrance to the group or the you're just not going to get along or have a remotely good time with that group, so you ask for a kick. To anyone who's new here, you might ask: why would you ask to be kicked? Many people think of a kick as a punishment from the group for bad behavior, etc. In fact, getting kicked is a favor (if you want to not be in the group) because *you don't get punished by the game (read: devs) with a gf ban*. However, people have caught onto that "lack of punishment" and multiple times now I have quite literally encountered groups who want to cut their nose to spite their face, and *refuse* to kick someone who wants to be kicked. They spitefully *want* the person who wants to not be there to instead drop and take the gf lockout punishment.

 

 

Since running flashpoints is the de facto endgame gearing process now (efficient for renown levelling and cxp to gain tech frags to buy tacticals and set items), it occurs to me that this whole system of group finder drop punishment and kick non-punishment is utterly ridiculous. Here are my thoughts about those two above, common, terrible situations.

 

1.) The game already has a process to deter or at least hinder FP farming: you get a reward for not filtering the group finder. So that aside, *why* is there a punishment for dropping group? If I have a problem with the group, I can put one or more people on ignore and vice versa and I won't grouped with them again. So *why* should I be punished for not wanting to run a flashpoint with one or more players that I don't want to play with? What terrible exploitable game mechanic is the group finder lockout punishment solving that is worse for the game than not wanting to play with a group that I deem terrible enough to not want to play with? Let me expound on what a "terrible" or "awful" pug is to me; it's NOT players who have so-called learn-to-play (L2P) issues. I'm actually very happy and patient to help inexperienced players. I don't mind wiping; I don't mind taking as many attempts at downing a boss as it takes for players in my group to get the hang of things. My issue is with attitudes. For starters, players who refuse to read or respond to group chat; players who refuse to learn from their mistakes; players who are inflammatory, insulting, rude, etc.; all the stuff that just makes some people really awful to play with. For some reason, though, the devs decided that I should *have* to play with those players, or instead get punished for not wanting to stay in that group.

 

2.) Completely counter-intuitive and backwards, a vote kick does *not* result in a group finder lockout. How does that make sense? If I deserve to be kicked, why would I then (and only then) get punished for bad behavior by having to take a group finder lockout? Now that players have caught onto that, I have to *ask* the group to kick me in order to not get the lockout, but guess what? If they're a bunch of trolls who want to make me have a bad time, they're certainly not going to do me the "favor" of kicking me. In a recent experience, I had to play the game of "who can be more spiteful". I let the group know that I was unhappy with their terrible behavior and asked to be removed from the group. Knowing that I wouldn't get a lockout, they literally chose to keep me in the group for so long that one of them decided to cave and instead take the lockout themselves and drop (which they clearly deserved) and eventually the group dissolved and I managed to not get the lockout, though ironically of course so much time passed that it would actually have been faster to drop and take the lockout. In this case, I was holding up their (and my) progress and by any reasonable measure I *deserved* to be kicked and the system of vote-kicking literally exists to democratically remove someone from the group that at least half the group doesn't want there.

 

 

So all that non-sense aside, I've gotten a few strange, spiteful, immature responses in-game to my thoughts on this whole system. The simplest has been "you should be punished [with a lockout] simply because you want to not be in the group." Another has been the attitude that I'm pretentious for not wanting the lockout, in spite of or regardless of the fact that I was grouped with terrible players who exhibited real behavioral problems. Another has been "it's only 20 minutes, just take it and move on", which entirely misses or disregards the injustice of it all. Yes, it's just a game. Sure "only" 20 minutes is no big deal to some people. It's a big deal to me and I'm sure it's a big deal to others, especially when, care or not, it is specifically intended as a punishment by the devs for dropping group, presumably to hinder some kind of potential exploit or, more ridiculous, to prevent someone from getting a lousy 100 tf's by constantly dropping until they "randomly" get Hammer Station.

 

The system sucks and I really think it needs realignment with how things really work nowadays, and fixed, like any unjust punishment mechanic, so that behavior that actually *deserves* punishment is punished. Ultimately I shouldn't have to play with players who exhibit bad behavior, and the game currently punishes me for exercising that right. A (somewhat strawman-like) extrapolation would be why aren't we given a lockout or punishment of some kind for putting a player on ignore? Why aren't we punished for reporting legitimate spam or harassment? Clearly the devs have, at least to some degree, considered that bad behavior should be punished and not players who want to avoid it, much less report it, so why is taking this particular action to get away from bad behavior punished?

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the ban is there to stop people from constantly dropping, because they don't like what popped. If you want the rewards, and select all the fp's to get the reward, then you should take the FP that drops. If the timer wasn't there, people would keep dropping till the fp they wanted popped, instead of ignoring the gf reward, and just selecting what they want to pop
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The game already has a process to deter or at least hinder FP farming: you get a reward for not filtering the group finder.

 

The problem is that it is not enough. I agree with DarkTergon that too many people would just drop under your plan for a fundamental reason: The variation in time and difficulty among Flashpoints is huge.

 

I agree with much of what you wrote, but until the above mentioned discrepancy is resolved, there will (and should) be a penalty.

 

Others have suggested that one way to help resolve, or at least mitigage, the situation (thereby making your recommendation more palatable) would be to increase rewards for the more difficult and lengthy Flashpoints, which many people still abandon currently despite knowing they will incur a lockout penalty. On its face it seems to be a good idea and not one that requires a whole bunch of programming changes (something I know nothing about).

 

Dasty

Edited by Jdast
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Choosing to drop group is saying "I'd rather do something else than play with a group". You shouldn't even notice the timer while you do that something else.

 

Getting kicked should be outside of your control, and you may still want to group with people. No timer.

 

Makes sense to me.

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The lockout timer should be removed. There is none in pvp, there should be none in pve. That way people can leave groups they don't want to be in and don't have to log another toon to be able queue again. Sometimes I've used the lockout time to add those idiots to all my toon's ignore lists, which is time well spent as well.

 

Or another other option would be to make GF rewards same for those who Q completely random and have all boxes ticked, and for those who select only the ones they want to play. That way HS farmers would be happy, and so would the players who are capable of completing other content as well.

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The lockout timer should be removed. There is none in pvp, there should be none in pve. That way people can leave groups they don't want to be in and don't have to log another toon to be able queue again. Sometimes I've used the lockout time to add those idiots to all my toon's ignore lists, which is time well spent as well.

 

Or another other option would be to make GF rewards same for those who Q completely random and have all boxes ticked, and for those who select only the ones they want to play. That way HS farmers would be happy, and so would the players who are capable of completing other content as well.

 

As others said, if there was no lockout time, ppl would just reque infinitely until they get what they want. In fact, the lockout time should ALSO be in pvp, to prevent rage quitters. So many times i've had complete teams in a wz or arena, only for 1-2 ppl to leave right when it starts, so in the end we were 6vs8 or 3vs4 and obviously you lose. I'd be totally in favor of pvp 20min lockout to prevent that.

 

If you que, then you que, deal with the result as a mentally mature person. Otherwise, dont que.

 

And the rewards cannot be given all the same for the one who uses random gf and the one who only ticks HS, because the former is potentially taking the risk of a longer, more difficult fp and should be rewarded accordingly, it's simple as that.

 

I get the op's point, i get it. It happened to me too, so i can understand the feeling. Therefore, i always think it twice before queing, hence why most of the time i prefer to do solo activities.

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As others said, if there was no lockout time, ppl would just reque infinitely until they get what they want. In fact, the lockout time should ALSO be in pvp, to prevent rage quitters. So many times i've had complete teams in a wz or arena, only for 1-2 ppl to leave right when it starts, so in the end we were 6vs8 or 3vs4 and obviously you lose. I'd be totally in favor of pvp 20min lockout to prevent that.

 

Pvp has the same problem: people have to q blind. Nobody should be forced to play content they don't enjoy, especially not with a threat of "penalty". I mean seriously, it's a game. Most of us pay for it, and I want to enjoy what I'm paying for. I don't care if they put 24 hour lockout in pvp, I will drop a group if I don't like it and not q for another 30 days or so (that's how much I play pvp now). Even with 20 min lockout you will you just get a warzone full of people who hide in the corners or won't participate in any way. They might even feed kills to the enemy to get it over faster. Actually I would probably do just that. :D Because you can not force people into playing something they don't want to play. Simple as that.

 

 

If you que, then you que, deal with the result as a mentally mature person. Otherwise, dont que.

 

And the rewards cannot be given all the same for the one who uses random gf and the one who only ticks HS, because the former is potentially taking the risk of a longer, more difficult fp and should be rewarded accordingly, it's simple as that.

 

I get the op's point, i get it. It happened to me too, so i can understand the feeling. Therefore, i always think it twice before queing, hence why most of the time i prefer to do solo activities.

 

The original posted wrote about the attitude of some of the people in group finder, which I also find disgusting. You should go preach them about mental maturity. Considering how much you are defending their right to ruin the game from everyone else, one could think you are one of them.

 

I will continue to drop any group I don't like if I want to. That's why there is an option to leave a group with just a mouse click. I will just log another toon and q again. I'm paying for the game and I have every right to choose the people I play with. If randoms are being jerks, they can be jerks without me. There's absolutely nothing you or anyone else can do to force me to interact with toxic people.

 

 

I don't mind if longer and more difficult fps are rewarded better. I prefer doing them anyways. But with better rewards there's a risk that those HS graduates will also start q'ing for them, and that would not be great...

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Pvp has the same problem: people have to q blind. Nobody should be forced to play content they don't enjoy, especially not with a threat of "penalty". I mean seriously, it's a game. Most of us pay for it, and I want to enjoy what I'm paying for. I don't care if they put 24 hour lockout in pvp, I will drop a group if I don't like it and not q for another 30 days or so (that's how much I play pvp now). Even with 20 min lockout you will you just get a warzone full of people who hide in the corners or won't participate in any way. They might even feed kills to the enemy to get it over faster. Actually I would probably do just that. :D Because you can not force people into playing something they don't want to play. Simple as that.

Yes we pay for the game, and yes we want to enjoy it. But your enjoyment cant kill the enjoyment of others, and viceversa. The problems comes when i que pvp, and then right before the wz starts there are 1-3 quitters, and we end up losing. Then what, i just suck it and move on?

 

I'ts not forcing people, there are rules in the game mode. You abide them, and play according to them. I can right now que pvp and quit later without penalty, so i assume it and move on, even though i'd prefer if it was done differently. Same with fps, there are rules, so when you que, you must keep them in mind and assume the consequences, otherwise dont que.

 

The original posted wrote about the attitude of some of the people in group finder, which I also find disgusting. You should go preach them about mental maturity. Considering how much you are defending their right to ruin the game from everyone else, one could think you are one of them.

 

I will continue to drop any group I don't like if I want to. That's why there is an option to leave a group with just a mouse click. I will just log another toon and q again. I'm paying for the game and I have every right to choose the people I play with. If randoms are being jerks, they can be jerks without me. There's absolutely nothing you or anyone else can do to force me to interact with toxic people.

 

 

I don't mind if longer and more difficult fps are rewarded better. I prefer doing them anyways. But with better rewards there's a risk that those HS graduates will also start q'ing for them, and that would not be great...

 

No im not one of those brats, that's why i said i very rarely run fps, im simply not in the mood to deal with jerks. And yes they should grow up, but the point still stands, when you go into group finder, you know the drill.

 

You can keep dropping groups, and you'll keep getting the penalty, is all. If you wanna group with other people, you must be ready for all the possible consequences of taking part in that activity.

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Choosing to drop group is saying "I'd rather do something else than play with a group". You shouldn't even notice the timer while you do that something else.

Well, it means that unless it means "I don't want to do this specific FP" or "I don't want to this FP with *these* people". In those cases, the "something else" is "run a GF FP", in which case you very much *will* notice the timer.

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This sort of topic has come up several times recently. The only viable solution would seem to be to eliminate the bonus for queuing for all FPs. After all, the main sticking point seems to be that people want the bonus, but don't want to do some of the FPs.

Anther good idea is the creation of a separate VM queue for people who want to go slow - that is, little skipping, watching cutscenes, doing bonuses, etc. And perhaps also a separate 70+ queue. 🙄

Edited by JediQuaker
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2.) You yourself realize that you're a hindrance to the group or the you're just not going to get along or have a remotely good time with that group, so you ask for a kick. To anyone who's new here, you might ask: why would you ask to be kicked? Many people think of a kick as a punishment from the group for bad behavior, etc. In fact, getting kicked is a favor (if you want to not be in the group) because *you don't get punished by the game (read: devs) with a gf ban*. However, people have caught onto that "lack of punishment" and multiple times now I have quite literally encountered groups who want to cut their nose to spite their face, and *refuse* to kick someone who wants to be kicked. They spitefully *want* the person who wants to not be there to instead drop and take the gf lockout punishment.

 

2.) Completely counter-intuitive and backwards, a vote kick does *not* result in a group finder lockout. How does that make sense? If I deserve to be kicked, why would I then (and only then) get punished for bad behavior by having to take a group finder lockout? Now that players have caught onto that, I have to *ask* the group to kick me in order to not get the lockout, but guess what? If they're a bunch of trolls who want to make me have a bad time, they're certainly not going to do me the "favor" of kicking me. In a recent experience, I had to play the game of "who can be more spiteful". I let the group know that I was unhappy with their terrible behavior and asked to be removed from the group. Knowing that I wouldn't get a lockout, they literally chose to keep me in the group for so long that one of them decided to cave and instead take the lockout themselves and drop (which they clearly deserved) and eventually the group dissolved and I managed to not get the lockout, though ironically of course so much time passed that it would actually have been faster to drop and take the lockout. In this case, I was holding up their (and my) progress and by any reasonable measure I *deserved* to be kicked and the system of vote-kicking literally exists to democratically remove someone from the group that at least half the group doesn't want there.

If you leave a GF group for any reason (leave on your own or get kicked) you DO get the GF lockout. However, if you are in the group for a certain amount of time (15 minutes maybe), you will not have a GF lockout when you leave.

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Dear OP -

With all due respect, if you're going to write a wall o' text like that, you need to include a tl;dr statement, an executive summary, if you will. You said that 20 minutes is a big deal for you, and I respect that. Please have the same respect for us and our time.

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If you leave a GF group for any reason (leave on your own or get kicked) you DO get the GF lockout. However, if you are in the group for a certain amount of time (15 minutes maybe), you will not have a GF lockout when you leave.

 

Incorrect. If you are kicked, you suffer NO lockout timer, regardless of how long you've been in the Flashpoint.

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Others have suggested that one way to help resolve, or at least mitigage, the situation (thereby making your recommendation more palatable) would be to increase rewards for the more difficult and lengthy Flashpoints, which many people still abandon currently despite knowing they will incur a lockout penalty. On its face it seems to be a good idea and not one that requires a whole bunch of programming changes (something I know nothing about).

 

That can create a reverse effect. In Final Fantasy XIV, there is a chunk of content called "Main Scenario Roulette." There's a random choice of two, eight-player quests. One takes about 15 minutes, the other 45. It's becoming more and more prevalent that people drop group if the 15-minute dungeon pops because the XP reward is so small compared to the 45 minute version.

 

It also seems silly that you should want to drop a group without any penalty whatsoever. If you do wind up with a terribad group, you can leave after ~15 minutes with no penalty. Hammer Station farming is already bad enough, how do you stop that with no penalty at all?

Edited by jedimasterjac
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In fact, the lockout time should ALSO be in pvp, to prevent rage quitters

I disagree with that. It would result in people just afk hiding, especially for any of the Huttball queues as the amount of people leaving Huttball as soon as it loads is ridiculous. A while back there was a thread suggesting it might be better to have a WZ selector for regular PvP but that has the potential problem of never-ending queues & the rando group vs premades being much worse than it is now.

 

As for the OPs original problem I don't bother with the daily GF reward for FPs anymore; I just queue for the FPs I'm enjoy doing. If DvL event returns only then will queue for all. If OP doesn't like the standard of groups via GF, they should just make their own group then queue in the finder. If you make a group of three then queue you get the reward. I've not tried it with a group of four though - someone else may know if this still gets you the reward.

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If you don't enjoy randoms, don't queue for randoms.

 

I enjoy randoms, that's why I always queue random. However there is always a HS hero or two who only queue for that one, and force everyone else to join what they want to play. At that point it's no longer a random flashpoint.

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You can keep dropping groups, and you'll keep getting the penalty, is all. If you wanna group with other people, you must be ready for all the possible consequences of taking part in that activity.

 

Yes, and that's why I have plenty of toons so I can just log something else and queue again. I'm just saying it's an idiotic system and will hurt the playerbase when less people will queue to dodge HS (or the difficult ones).

 

Lately I've seen people looking for a group for HS farm on fleet, and I have to say those people are a lot smarter than the ones who force randoms to join their farm and I have a lot of respect for them. They're not going to get the GF reward anyhow, so they can just walk in with a companion or two, and meanwhile they are not ruining the GF from everyone else.

 

Getting rid of the random GF reward or giving it also to the people who select only a few fps would solve the problem. It would make cheevo farming easier too, as you would only end up in a group where everyone has chosen the flashpoints they want to do.

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The third scenario of GF that sucks is when you get instantly kicked from a group because they were trying to get a guildie/friend/etc into their group. You still get the lockout even though you technically didn't quit the group if they kick you right away.
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That can create a reverse effect. In Final Fantasy XIV, there is a chunk of content called "Main Scenario Roulette." There's a random choice of two, eight-player quests. One takes about 15 minutes, the other 45. It's becoming more and more prevalent that people drop group if the 15-minute dungeon pops because the XP reward is so small compared to the 45 minute version.

 

It also seems silly that you should want to drop a group without any penalty whatsoever. If you do wind up with a terribad group, you can leave after ~15 minutes with no penalty. Hammer Station farming is already bad enough, how do you stop that with no penalty at all?

 

I agree with your first paragraph 100 percent. I'm a firm believer in the maxim that - 'for every reaction there is all too often and unfortunately -- an overreaction.' So, yeah, they would have to get the balance right.

 

Your second para confuses me a bit. HS as it is takes 15 minutes. Many of us have alts so dropping queue is already no penalty at all. The issue is incentivizing other FPs (at least for me). I mean, they could lower the rewards in FPs like HS, which I can actually see them doing given past behavior. But, again, the more they get the balance right the better.

 

Note: I'm not expressing any confidence one way or the other that they could do so correctly, but it is seems pretty clear the system right now is wonky with some FP's almost never touched.

 

Note too: I'm also not sure they consider this a priority since gearing is relatively easy, even if you don't spam HS runs. This far into Onslaught I find it difficult to believe that most people aren't geared on at least one character with possible exception of Amps / Augments.

 

Absent some reasonable semblance of balance, though, I still support some form of penalty for leaving. That is not mutually exclusive, however, from mitigating (i.e., not resolving) the problem by increasing rewards for some FPs.

 

Dasty

Edited by Jdast
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Not sure why I'm posting here, as most don't read what people write, but here goes my 2 credits.

 

VM doesn't need a lock out timer. If someone leaves after the group starts, fine, it won't hurt the group that's continuing on and the companion is probably just as good or better. Additionally getting a new member usually doesn't take that long as you don't need a tank or healer. Leave the random choice in place for VM, lose the timer.

 

Other rare problems with the lockout timer on either mode is there are times when weird glitches occur, and you have to leave the group like being stuck on the other side of the elevator then someone D/Cs on the other side but is in combat, or stuck on other side of the elevator and the person on opposite side isn't reading chat and keeps aggro'ing mobs... (i.e.RR).

 

Master mode needs to increase the reward for RIN. RIN Is garbage right now. Perhaps scale the RIN by difficultly. The random reward is worthless for those that do MM. it's so small, I don't bother with and simply check off the FPs I want and I just have to wait longer.

 

RIN should also have a increasing reward verses timer like the amplifiers or the lottery. The longer it goes without being filled, the higher the reward becomes. So for example, if a tank just keeps picking HS, the reward for Bloodhunt for the RIN keeps increasing while HS is garbage. Stay calm Bioware, you can cap it. Breath, breath.

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Well, it means that unless it means "I don't want to do this specific FP" or "I don't want to this FP with *these* people". In those cases, the "something else" is "run a GF FP", in which case you very much *will* notice the timer.

 

If you don't want that specific FP, why didn't you filter it?

If you don't want the randoms, don't queue with randoms.

You can't have a random FP group finder without random FP groups.

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If you don't want that specific FP, why didn't you filter it?

If you don't want the randoms, don't queue with randoms.

You can't have a random FP group finder without random FP groups.

 

I find your lack of comprehension disturbing.

 

As long as one of the people in GF has selected only HS, it's not random for the rest of the group. It's one person forcing their needs on other people.

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