BioWare Austin has AdeptStrain from SWG's development team. He made up an appearance tab system on his own time for SWG. It worked great.

AdeptStrain SHOULD do this because it's a big request item for a lot of people.

Don't understand why you need an appearance tab. We do not need inquisitors running around in trooper armor casting force attacks.

The reason you don't understand is because you haven't read what is being asked for.

No one wants inappropriate armor or weapons. We just want to be able to CHOOSE how we look from the armor and weapons available to our AC.

BioWare Austin has AdeptStrain from SWG's development team. He made up an appearance tab system on his own time for SWG. It worked great.

 

AdeptStrain SHOULD do this because it's a big request item for a lot of people.

You would think he would argue the case for it.

Don't need an appearance tab, the way the crafting system works.

You do if you want to wear level 50 PvP gear. At the very least, PvP armor needs to be fixed so you can remove all stats from it and transfer to an orange piece you like.

You won't get an A-tab system. If this perceived problem gets addressed it will be by making more things moddable to greater extent. That being said, I think it working as intended and mostly just needs more than two weeks for the orange schamatics to filter out.

They have actually indicated that an a-tab is in development, they just need to speed it up. And no, having more orange schematics on the market would NOT help. It would still be a system that is far more hassle than it's worth and that completely devalues any non-orange gear, and completely devalues the armor and weapon crafting professions that do not make mods for orange gear.

What people don't seem to be getting is that the orange system itself is broken, not just the current state of it, or the current understanding of it, or something else that would self-correct over time.

Why is it that some gamers, most likely coming from a certain "other" AAA MMO that has this feature, think we have a "right" to have independent control over our appearance? And I mean that honestly, not tongue in cheek.

For example, no player I know or have every spoken to would, while having a piece of lets say smuggler gear with a great bonus to Cunning and a great bonus to Surge, receive an item with a lesser bonus to Cunning but a BETTER bonus to surge, come on to the forums and say "I should have a tab for my gear for my primary stat (cunning), and then a separate tab for gear for my secondary stats (like surge) so I can combine the features that I like from these two completely separate items"

I think we can agree that most if not all of our gut reactions would be "that's a horrible idea" It would be horrible because it just turns gear into a set of additive numbers. You wouldn't have to take the item as a whole into account... weighing positives and negatives of different items against each other. Not to mention that typically great items are great because they bring multiple large bonuses or stats with them... so when we see an item with a great primary AND great secondary (and tertiary, etc) feature we get excited, and we like those items.

An item's physical appearance on our characters is another feature of that item. It is something that is part of that item, and comes along for the ride with the crunchy game stats. I'm just wondering why many think that this feature can be "separated" out from the gear. We would never think to merge the numeric stats of two items, so why on earth do people think that we should merge the physical appearance across two items?

Obviously, someone will quote this and say "because it doesn't affect the game"... but is that really true? Wearing a blue helmet might not affect how quickly you smash / blast / slice something into pudding, but obviously it affects the enjoyment of the game for you. If it didn't, we wouldn't see pages and pages of discussion on this.

However, at the end of the day, isn't the reason you want to turn that enemy into pudding not just part of enjoying the game? Whether you want to pulverize it to level, to make money, to get to end game, or just to let off some steam... that value of that stat bonus on that gear is to enhance your enjoyment of the game... just as is the visual appearance of the gear.

So, why do we believe we should be able to separate stats from appearance, if ultimately the value they bring is how much we ENJOY of the gear and what it adds to our game?

Full disclosure, I am definitely on the side of no A-TAB needed... I do not want to essentially turn all gear into what would be an orange with one giant slot that takes another piece of gear of the same type (which is what an A-TAB does... instead of slotting 3 or 4 mods into armor to set its effects, I essentially "slot" one other item of the same type to set its effects). So I might be biased.

Sorry for the wall of text

Why is it that some gamers, most likely coming from a certain "other" AAA MMO that has this feature, think we have a "right" to have independent control over our appearance? And I mean that honestly, not tongue in cheek.

It's really most other AAA MMOs, and even really most other AA and A and C- MMOs that already have this feature. Pretty much every decent MMO, and many decent non-MMO RPGs in the last five years has a character appearance feature that is more developed than SWtOR's, it's hardly unreasonable for an incoming player to expect Bioware to have kept up with at least 2008 game design in a 2011 game.

An item's physical appearance on our characters is another feature of that item. It is something that is part of that item, and comes along for the ride with the crunchy game stats. I'm just wondering why many think that this feature can be "separated" out from the gear. We would never think to merge the numeric stats of two items, so why on earth do people think that we should merge the physical appearance across two items?

Isn't merging the numeric stats of two different items the entire point of the mod system?

So, why do we believe we should be able to separate stats from appearance, if ultimately the value they bring is how much we ENJOY of the gear and what it adds to our game?

Because better appearance control would make the game more fun. The better question is why NOT allow this?

Full disclosure, I am definitely on the side of no A-TAB needed... I do not want to essentially turn all gear into what would be an orange with one giant slot that takes another piece of gear of the same type (which is what an A-TAB does... instead of slotting 3 or 4 mods into armor to set its effects, I essentially "slot" one other item of the same type to set its effects). So I might be biased.

You think? Seriously though, custom gear would still be custom gear. If all custom gear worked the way you seem to think it does, where all that matters is that it's a "look" that you dump a predetermined set of stats into, then it already works how your "nightmare" scenario envisions. I don't think that is the point of the custom system though, the point of the custom system is versatility, that you can choose to put a mod in with +surge OR a mod with +cunning, and that this choice is left to the player, not to the designers. Being able to adjust the stat balance of the gear is the justification for the custom system's existence, which is why I'd fully expect plenty of people to be wearing orange gear even with an appearance tab projecting a completely different look over top of it.

Why is it that some gamers, most likely coming from a certain "other" AAA MMO that has this feature, think we have a "right" to have independent control over our appearance? And I mean that honestly, not tongue in cheek.

Because we are used to having our characters be visually pleasing to our own eyes, not looking as if a billion random parts had been stuck on them when the paint factory exploded around them.

I won't say we feel as if we have a right to customize our appearance. But technology advances, even in games. We have a 2004 degree of character customization currently, and it's 2012 (as of this writing, Happy New Year everyone!). In a competitive market you adapt or you lose customer base.

As for WHY BW should provide us with this, from a business perspective, well it's pretty simple really. There are different groups of people who play MMOs for different reasons. Some of us won't play our characters if we don't like the look of them. It's a small enough thing to cater to us, just like it's a small enough thing to cater to the raiders, crafters, and other splinter groups who play MMOs. After all, the goal is to attract a large customer base, no? So providing the ways and means for that segment of the customer base to feel connected to our characters (because that is what's going to help keep us playing, that feeling of connection) will prolong subs from that group.

I hope this clears things up for you a bit. If you have further questions, just ask.

Some of us won't play our characters if we don't like the look of them.

Agreed... no few people I know enjoy when their gear is a hodge podge of rainbow junk

BUT... we are totaly free to co-ordinate all we want, it just might mean that we are not always in the gear that gives us the best stats.

The essential argument is that "I want A (my look) but I won't compromise with B (my stats)". Its a have your cake and eat it too situation. That was the point of my argument early... if I had two items, and one gave a great stat of type A, and one gave a stat of type B, few people would expect to "take the best of both worlds" in that case. But if one item gave a great stat of type A, and a great look of type B, then many people think you SHOULD get the best of both worlds.

Was just curious how people justified the difference between these two scenarios, without saying "appearance isn't important"... because if its not important, then people wouldn't want the feature Thats all.

It's really most other AAA MMOs, and even really most other AA and A and C- MMOs that already have this feature.

Curious what all these MMOs are... I haven't experianced any that implement such a seperate apperiance function. Keep in mind we're talking about games where your gear in some way determines your appearance, not where "costumes" are a completely seperate feature that requires no work on the side of the player. TOR is still leaps and bounds ahead in customization during character creation vs pretty much any other MMO i've played (except maybe eve, but lets face it thats a lot of time and effort for something no one sees). Again, I don't count super hero costume games in this, because I really think that is an apples and oranges discussion (but even at that, TOR facial customization still blows the competition away IMHO).

Agreed... no few people I know enjoy when their gear is a hodge podge of rainbow junk

 

BUT... we are totaly free to co-ordinate all we want, it just might mean that we are not always in the gear that gives us the best stats.

 

The essential argument is that "I want A (my look) but I won't compromise with B (my stats)". Its a have your cake and eat it too situation. That was the point of my argument early... if I had two items, and one gave a great stat of type A, and one gave a stat of type B, few people would expect to "take the best of both worlds" in that case. But if one item gave a great stat of type A, and a great look of type B, then many people think you SHOULD get the best of both worlds.[]

 

Was just curious how people justified the difference between these two scenarios, without saying "appearance isn't important"... because if its not important, then people wouldn't want the feature Thats all.

I should be able to get the look I want. I don't mind putting effort equal to getting good stat gear, but it seems unreasonable to me to have to put in MORE effort than I do for good stat gear just to LOOK the way I want to.

Curious what all these MMOs are... I haven't experianced any that implement such a seperate apperiance function. Keep in mind we're talking about games where your gear in some way determines your appearance, not where "costumes" are a completely seperate feature that requires no work on the side of the player. TOR is still leaps and bounds ahead in customization during character creation vs pretty much any other MMO i've played (except maybe eve, but lets face it thats a lot of time and effort for something no one sees). Again, I don't count super hero costume games in this, because I really think that is an apples and oranges discussion (but even at that, TOR facial customization still blows the competition away IMHO).

LotRO for one.

And, to put it politely, I'm unimpressed by the facial customization, and frankly the character creator as a whole. Look at ME or DA (other BW games) and see some decent facial customization. And I'm not stuck with 2/3 of my choices for hair stiles being emo, punk, or gang looking trash. 5 styles of corn rows? Really? Cyborg as a RACE/SPIECES? Say WHAT? Five years in development and the best you can come up with is to say "Well it's better than WoW"?!?!?!?

Let's not discuss the steaming pile we have for a character creator, shall we?

BUT... we are totaly free to co-ordinate all we want, it just might mean that we are not always in the gear that gives us the best stats.

But that's not freedom, because stats matter too. There's no need for players to choose, they should be able to have the very best stats available to them at any given time, AND the very best appearance they have access to at any given time, simultaneously. The technology exists, just not currently in this game.

Curious what all these MMOs are... I haven't experianced any that implement such a seperate apperiance function.

Just of the ones I've played, in order of release:

CoH

LotRO

CO

DCUO

There may be others out there, I understand Rift has some variation on this theme that allows for at least better customization than SWtOR, and I understand that WoW has also added an improved customization feature since I last played it. There are also a number of single player games that allow for better appearance customization than SWtOR while offering similar gameplay elements, such as Saints Row, Terraria, and others that you can use editing tools to get the look you want, like Dragon Age 2.

Keep in mind we're talking about games where your gear in some way determines your appearance, not where "costumes" are a completely seperate feature that requires no work on the side of the player.

Why make the distinction? In games like CO and DCUO, your stats are determined by your gear, and gear does grant access to new costumes, it's just semantics to argue that they should be any different than what SWtOR offers.

TOR is still leaps and bounds ahead in customization during character creation vs pretty much any other MMO i've played (except maybe eve, but lets face it thats a lot of time and effort for something no one sees).

That's kind of sad then, because TOR's customization is well behind most of the MMOs I've played, aside from WoW. I mean, it's adequate enough, but there are much more versatile character creation systems out there.

Again, I don't count super hero costume games in this, because I really think that is an apples and oranges discussion (but even at that, TOR facial customization still blows the competition away IMHO).

That's your choice, but you're sort of disconnecting yourself from the discussion by doing so. If you're going to arbitrarily rule out superhero MMOs then we might as well also arbitrarily rule out fantasy MMOs as well, because those have magic in them, which makes a pair of shorts that grant +willpower a much more reasonable thing. I can make much closer analogs to my Trooper and Consular in DCUO or CO than I ever could in WoW, both visually and in performance.

I can see both points and both valid but i think people should not be restricted to a specific line of armor. Maybe another crafting ability for social apperances can be bought in so crafters still win with creations and selling but also the players get a more wider variety of armor and clothing, also some apperances can be used in commendations also quest rewards. This will also be helping to break up the mundane look of "oh look you look exactly like me, oh and so do you" which i feel is already in game sadly.

I recon bring on any solution to give us players more choice hopefully later down the line something will be implemented.

This game needs an A-tab. Orange gear doesnt cut it.

Hate the way my female twillek look in clunky jedi guardian armor.

This is something that's been long requested, and long ignored by Bioware

they didn't ignore it. they dismissed it because it is a terrible idea.

Didn't they state they were working on it? Thought I read that somewhere, could be wrong though.

If not, then they will eventually, even if they say no now. Vanity is a huge factor in mmo's. Ignoring it is a sure path to niche status.

Right now people use orange items for vanity then get to 50 and realize they are stuck with horrible looking gear that drops from raids. That is a very lame system that most players hate. It is sure to be fixed in some way that allows people to create the look they want.

 

 

Curious what all these MMOs are... I haven't experianced any that implement such a seperate apperiance function. Keep in mind we're talking about games where your gear in some way determines your appearance, not where "costumes" are a completely seperate feature that requires no work on the side of the player. TOR is still leaps and bounds ahead in customization during character creation vs pretty much any other MMO i've played (except maybe eve, but lets face it thats a lot of time and effort for something no one sees). Again, I don't count super hero costume games in this, because I really think that is an apples and oranges discussion (but even at that, TOR facial customization still blows the competition away IMHO).

EQ2 has a separate appearance tab. As does LOTRO.

Current system works better than an A tab - at least this way its controlled: the moment you put in an A tab, everyone starts making their pvp gear look as ridiculous as possible and gear/silhouette recognition goes out the window.

So frakin' what?

PvPers are always talking about how much more manly they are because PvP is so much tougher than PvE. PvPers can get over not being able to ID someone's class at a glance instead of trying to cherry pick their targets.

Besides, an Appearance Tab would not allow Consulars to wear heavy Trooper armor, or even heavy JK armor. You can only put into the A-Tab what you could normally wear.

So what was your objection again?

There is honestly no good reason NOT to have this added to the game. All the other MMO's are doing it due to the fact that Appearence Tabs are in POPULAR DEMAND.

People actually ENJOY making their character look good, and they enjoy it independantly of collecting gear for stats. Appearence Tabs are absolutely a good business idea as well, as it gets old art assets re-used and that makes your art team more efficient.

Also, collecting a certain item because you like how it looks forces you to plug extra hours into the game, which is just what BW wants from its players.

Bottom line, there's a reason why most MMO's have an Appearence Tab. It's a good idea. Implement it.