This is just it though, you forget it's not Revan's 'fleet' - it's Revan's navy. He has a whole host of ships as his disposal scattered across the Mid and Outer Rim. So really it doesn't matter how long a single fleet will take to arrive (roughly 4 days) another will follow after that, and another. All the while the entire Core is surrounded, no more reinforcements for Xizor. Defeat is inevitable, escape is the only option.

Defeat is never inevitable. Not for someone like Xizor. Given the vastness of his intelligence network, Xizor can locate Revan's forces and conclude where they are heading and move pieces to counter them. If Revan gets to close, Xizor flees. Unless Revan actively interrogates one of Xizor's men (that knows the location of all of Xizor's secret bases, which is unlikely), Xizor can effectively disappear. And while he is completely invisible, he can use his intelligence network to take control of Revan's fleets. Obviously not in the same sense as Revan being in control, but he can direct them into traps. He can also sneak bio weapons onto Revan's ships or simply sabotage them.

Basically, if Xizor vanishes, he wins. The objective is to kill Xizor, and that can prove impossible unless certain things fall in his favor. Really, the only sure-fire way for Revan to win this is with Assassins. I'm under the impression that these assassins should be able to avoid the detection of Xizor's intelligence network. If that's true, then Revan's chances of victory are actually quite high if he decides to use the assassins instead of his military.

If that's true, then Revan's chances of victory are actually quite high if he decides to use the assassins instead of his military.

What DID Revan ever use the assassins for?

What DID Revan ever use the assassins for?

Mainly Jedi capture or elimination. But I doubt they are limited to such actions.

This is just it though, you forget it's not Revan's 'fleet' - it's Revan's navy. He has a whole host of ships as his disposal scattered across the Mid and Outer Rim. So really it doesn't matter how long a single fleet will take to arrive (roughly 4 days) another will follow after that, and another. All the while the entire Core is surrounded, no more reinforcements for Xizor. Defeat is inevitable, escape is the only option.

And each and every one of those fleets will be picked apart by Xizor's pirates LONG before they reach Coruscant. Pirates frequently use tractor beams or gravity wells to pull ships out of hyperspace. Xizor's ships could easily pick away at Revan's fleets. Even if the attacks fail, they slowed the fleets down enough for Xizor to prepare more and more...

The Core is surrounded = no reenforcements? What? The core has hundreds if not thousands of worlds. And being that Xizor makes his HQ in it, he has all the forces he needs right there. He can still communicate with the rest of his forces in the outer rim as well, so it's not like they'll just be sitting their. In fact, it's Revan that is surrounded, as the Black Sun attacks his from the core, the outer rim, and even from his own planets. The Black Sun doesn't own planets. They feed off them from the shadows. But this parasite is about to become deadly.

Is defeat inevitable? I thought the entire point of the debate was to argue if it is or not. Let's not jump to conclusions by making definite statements. Xizor has Coruscant and its defenses, his palace and its defenses, his fleet in orbit, his pirates waiting to ambush Revan's forces/reenforcements, and an intel network that'll warn him of incoming attacks.

I don't think Xizor needs to disappear to win. But I do think it's the best option.

And each and every one of those fleets will be picked apart by Xizor's pirates LONG before they reach Coruscant. Pirates frequently use tractor beams or gravity wells to pull ships out of hyperspace. Xizor's ships could easily pick away at Revan's fleets. Even if the attacks fail, they slowed the fleets down enough for Xizor to prepare more and more...

 

The Core is surrounded = no reenforcements? What? The core has hundreds if not thousands of worlds. And being that Xizor makes his HQ in it, he has all the forces he needs right there. He can still communicate with the rest of his forces in the outer rim as well, so it's not like they'll just be sitting their. In fact, it's Revan that is surrounded, as the Black Sun attacks his from the core, the outer rim, and even from his own planets. The Black Sun doesn't own planets. They feed off them from the shadows. But this parasite is about to become deadly.

 

Is defeat inevitable? I thought the entire point of the debate was to argue if it is or not. Let's not jump to conclusions by making definite statements. Xizor has Coruscant and its defenses, his palace and its defenses, his fleet in orbit, his pirates waiting to ambush Revan's forces/reenforcements, and an intel network that'll warn him of incoming attacks.

 

I don't think Xizor needs to disappear to win. But I do think it's the best option.

But you make a very good point about waylaying his forces, that could very well work and leave Revan open it counterattack. It would at least give him time to bash his foundry's - but personally if I where Xizor I retreat to a base my enemy doesn't know about and use Coruscant as a decoy.

I'm just trying to make you fight me really, part of my role is to stand in for the absent, and right now the bigotted fanboy is absent . Let me make it clear though that I mean Xizor would lose the battle, but not the war.

 

But you make a very good point about waylaying his forces, that could very well work and leave Revan open it counterattack. It would at least give him time to bash his foundry's - but personally if I where Xizor I retreat to a base my enemy doesn't know about and use Coruscant as a decoy.

Yeah, where are the fanboys? Thought they would show up in force to prevent Revan from losing to a crime lord (gasp! ).

Yeah, where are the fanboys? Thought they would show up in force to prevent Revan from losing to a crime lord (gasp! ).

A crime lord? *Smacks Aurbere with a white glove!* He is the Dark Prince!

A crime lord? *Smacks Aurbere with a white glove!* He is the Dark Prince!

:( I wasn't serious! :(

I knew that, but that's the general image of Xizor by the misinformed, is it not?

:( I wasn't serious! :(

I knew that, but that's the general image of Xizor by the misinformed, is it not?

Probably ya, also just found out he might be a G-canon character for he had cameo appearances in EP 1 in the Pod Race scene in the stands on the staris! Though..its just a possibility...but its not ruled out cause it was just a micro-machine figurine in the crowd. I tried to find him, but couldn't or I didn't look hard enough...I guess its trying to find Waldo..

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/4/48/SWV_Mos_Espa_Grand_Arena.JPG

Hes suppose to be there, but when I watched the scene I couldn't find him. But I guess I missed him..

Probably ya, also just found out he might be a G-canon character for he had cameo appearances in EP 1 in the Pod Race scene in the stands on the staris! Though..its just a possibility...but its not ruled out cause it was just a micro-machine figurine in the crowd. I tried to find him, but couldn't or I didn't look hard enough...I guess its trying to find Waldo..

 

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/4/48/SWV_Mos_Espa_Grand_Arena.JPG

 

Hes suppose to be there, but when I watched the scene I couldn't find him. But I guess I missed him..

Interesting. I'll have to look for him next time I watch Phantom Menace. Good find!

And each and every one of those fleets will be picked apart by Xizor's pirates LONG before they reach Coruscant. Pirates frequently use tractor beams or gravity wells to pull ships out of hyperspace. Xizor's ships could easily pick away at Revan's fleets. Even if the attacks fail, they slowed the fleets down enough for Xizor to prepare more and more...

 

The Core is surrounded = no reenforcements? What? The core has hundreds if not thousands of worlds. And being that Xizor makes his HQ in it, he has all the forces he needs right there. He can still communicate with the rest of his forces in the outer rim as well, so it's not like they'll just be sitting their. In fact, it's Revan that is surrounded, as the Black Sun attacks his from the core, the outer rim, and even from his own planets. The Black Sun doesn't own planets. They feed off them from the shadows. But this parasite is about to become deadly.

 

Is defeat inevitable? I thought the entire point of the debate was to argue if it is or not. Let's not jump to conclusions by making definite statements. Xizor has Coruscant and its defenses, his palace and its defenses, his fleet in orbit, his pirates waiting to ambush Revan's forces/reenforcements, and an intel network that'll warn him of incoming attacks.

 

I don't think Xizor needs to disappear to win. But I do think it's the best option.

Uh, pirates generally couldn't take on a Victory Class Star Destroyer, and if technology has been equalized so Revan has military tech of Xizor's era, I don't see that many pirates being able to take on a single one of Revan's ships, additionally pirates aren't able to pull a single ship out of hyperspace, it'd be an entire fleet, which means a lot of dead pirates.

Xizor probably wouldn't be able to win this with a straight up battle, at least until he gets his hands on capital ships capable of going toe-to-toe against Imperial Star Destroyers.

Is there any rule against Revan building an HK-48? I understand he can't have HK-47, but considering he built HK-47, it stands to reason he could build an HK-48.

If Revan can adjust his tactics quickly enough, then Xizor is in serious trouble. G0-T0's advantage against Revan and Grievous was the fact he really didn't have a base of operations, he was the base of operations. Xizor isn't as used to being in the shadows and in hiding as much as G0-T0 was, so Xizor would probably be easier to find than G0-T0.

Uh, pirates generally couldn't take on a Victory Class Star Destroyer, and if technology has been equalized so Revan has military tech of Xizor's era, I don't see that many pirates being able to take on a single one of Revan's ships, additionally pirates aren't able to pull a single ship out of hyperspace, it'd be an entire fleet, which means a lot of dead pirates.

 

Xizor probably wouldn't be able to win this with a straight up battle, at least until he gets his hands on capital ships capable of going toe-to-toe against Imperial Star Destroyers.

 

Is there any rule against Revan building an HK-48? I understand he can't have HK-47, but considering he built HK-47, it stands to reason he could build an HK-48.

 

If Revan can adjust his tactics quickly enough, then Xizor is in serious trouble. G0-T0's advantage against Revan and Grievous was the fact he really didn't have a base of operations, he was the base of operations. Xizor isn't as used to being in the shadows and in hiding as much as G0-T0 was, so Xizor would probably be easier to find than G0-T0.

Revan doesn't have the tech of Xizor's era, he just has what he has only its equalized his ships still just have the same number of turbolasers, and how powerful they are, the same with his fighters, so in terms of just that Xizor's ships still outclass Revan's. Also what is an HK-48? There is no such thing.

Umm, aren't both sides supposed to have the same technological capabilities, as per the rules?

Their stuff is equalized yes, but all that matters is the number, size and power. They don't have the exact same technology, given one is a force user and the other one is leader of the Underworld, they can just use what they have, or at least that is what I got from the rules.

At the point where the main argument is "But their tech is at the same level!" you know there's a problem for Revan.

Even with tech equal, Xizor still beats Revan's fleet in terms of numbers, size and power. A heavy turbolaser, isn't gonna put out the same amount of power as a medium turbolaser I can tell you that much and those Venator's have 8 of them dual ones even which given the settings can go from small strikes to vaporizing blows.

At its highest power, the dual turbolasers punch right through shields and incinerate their target.

Their stuff is equalized yes, but all that matters is the number, size and power. They don't have the exact same technology, given one is a force user and the other one is leader of the Underworld, they can just use what they have, or at least that is what I got from the rules.

Didn't the mandalorians use a lot of the same tactics that pirates use...

Revan's forces would be able to take on space pirates. In the situation of a straight up military engagement, Revan has the edge, battles are not exactly Xizor's fortay.

So let's be honest here, if Xizor did challenge Revan to a straight up capital ship showdown, odds are Revan would win the engagement.

Didn't the mandalorians use a lot of the same tactics that pirates use...

 

Revan's forces would be able to take on space pirates. In the situation of a straight up military engagement, Revan has the edge, battles are not exactly Xizor's fortay.

 

So let's be honest here, if Xizor did challenge Revan to a straight up capital ship showdown, odds are Revan would win the engagement.

Really? You sure about that? Ok lets bring in a captial ship from each side and compare them shall we?

====

Centurion Class Battlecruiser

Armament: 6 Medium Turbolasers, 6 Heavy Ion Cannon Batteries,, 6 light point defense laser cannons, Proton Torpedo Launchers

====

Venator Class Star Destroyer

Armament: 8 DBY-827 Dual Heavy Turbolasers, 2 Medium Dual Turbolasers, an unknown number of turbolasers(possible modification which Xizor isn't stupid enough to not use, this actual gives a great advantage meaning he can outfit the Destroyer with various types of cannons), 52 laser point defense cannons, 4 Heavy Proton Torpedo launchers(16 torpedos each)

====

Now...your really gonna tell me, that captial ship to capital ship, a Centurion is gonna beat a Venator? The amount of firepower, the Venator could put out is far greater then that of a Centurion.

The power a Venator SD puts out is 3.6 X 10^24th power. So that is....

36,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 watts of power. (Jeez that is a long number, anyone here able to say how big is that? I know its more then a billion.)

36,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 watts of power. (Jeez that is a long number, anyone here able to say how big is that? I know its more then a billion.)

36 Octillion.

It's annoying that all the good arguments for Xizor come out in this round... we could have used all these points in the tri-battle!

36 Octillion.

 

It's annoying that all the good arguments for Xizor come out in this round... we could have used all these points in the tri-battle!

Ya...and assuming that the Centurion uses a regular fusion reactor, that is only how much power? Noting, the Venator doesn't use a fusion reactor, it uses a hypermatter reactor hence why its able to produce much more power.

Really? You sure about that? Ok lets bring in a captial ship from each side and compare them shall we?

What is worth discussing however is whether some pirate ships can effectively take out Revan's fleets, or just stall them. And whether Xizor would have enough time to set well planned traps involving larger cruisers to make the attacks more effective. However I think Xizor will divert any fleets he can muster to attacking Revan's shipyards and other key structures to keep the Darth busy. Then waylay incoming fleets with pirate ships (all the while Coruscant being a decoy) while he deploys assassins, informants etc. to track down and destroy Revan.

^^This is what needs to be considered. How is Revan going to counter that?

Well, thats assuming such a confrontation would actually happen. Which is highly unlikely. For one Revan would have Interdictors and possibly more Centurions backing up any capital ship that Xizor might ambush, and secondly Xizor has nothing to gain from trashing Revan's fleets unless Revan is on one. And lets say he is, seeing as Revan possessed tactical skill and naval experience while Xizor's lackeys do not, he has a better chance of overcoming any disadvantages. And then we have to consider who's going to be manning this Venators. Pirates. Not Clone Troopers honed and trained, but pirates who probably don't really know what there doing. Cannons are all well and good, but not if you don't know how to load them or fire them properly. And then we have to consider how easily they will be to infiltrate via say assassins, or simply Sith troopers.

 

What is worth discussing however is whether some pirate ships can effectively take out Revan's fleets, or just stall them. And whether Xizor would have enough time to set well planned traps involving larger cruisers to make the attacks more effective. However I think Xizor will divert any fleets he can muster to attacking Revan's shipyards and other key structures to keep the Darth busy. Then waylay incoming fleets with pirate ships (all the while Coruscant being a decoy) while he deploys assassins, informants etc. to track down and destroy Revan.

 

^^This is what needs to be considered. How is Revan going to counter that?

So your saying that Black Sun pirates are stupid and don't know how to control a ship? I was also just pointing out 1 on 1, that a Centurion would get smashed when Garfield said capital ship to capital ship(meaning 1 on 1) the Centurion would win.

However per the assassin bit, then Revan is gonna have a hard time in dealing with IG-86 droids who were considered to be some of the deadliest assassin droids in the galaxy. Now Revan may have some experience with HK units, however the IG units are different in design and can think logically and creativity. Anakin noted them as to be deadly and unpredictable and that is coming from the Chosen One, they have exceptional agility and infact one of them almost killed Anakin had it not been for Ahsoka saving him at the last minute.

This was just them with a blaster rifle too, imagine them getting properly geared out.

Really? You sure about that? Ok lets bring in a captial ship from each side and compare them shall we?

====

 

Centurion Class Battlecruiser

 

Armament: 6 Medium Turbolasers, 6 Heavy Ion Cannon Batteries,, 6 light point defense laser cannons, Proton Torpedo Launchers

====

 

Venator Class Star Destroyer

 

Armament: 8 DBY-827 Dual Heavy Turbolasers, 2 Medium Dual Turbolasers, an unknown number of turbolasers(possible modification which Xizor isn't stupid enough to not use, this actual gives a great advantage meaning he can outfit the Destroyer with various types of cannons), 52 laser point defense cannons, 4 Heavy Proton Torpedo launchers(16 torpedos each)

====

 

Now...your really gonna tell me, that captial ship to capital ship, a Centurion is gonna beat a Venator? The amount of firepower, the Venator could put out is far greater then that of a Centurion.

 

The power a Venator SD puts out is 3.6 X 10^24th power. So that is....

 

36,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 watts of power. (Jeez that is a long number, anyone here able to say how big is that? I know its more then a billion.)

Let's get real here... A super star destroyer doesn't have that kind of power output let alone a Venerator SD...

One thing that really annoys Star Trek fans is SW fans that throw out over-inflated numbers and then run around claiming the Death Star is larger than a Dyson Sphere...

As far as power output, Revan's ships would not have the same power output, but they also wouldn't be undermatched nearly to the degree that you are claiming.

Plus the rules are the tech is comperable, that means Revan's ships would have a similar power output for ships of their size of Xizor's era.

Let's get real here... A super star destroyer doesn't have that kind of power output let alone a Venerator SD...

 

One thing that really annoys Star Trek fans is SW fans that throw out over-inflated numbers and then run around claiming the Death Star is larger than a Dyson Sphere...

 

As far as power output, Revan's ships would not have the same power output, but they also wouldn't be undermatched nearly to the degree that you are claiming.

 

Plus the rules are the tech is comperable, that means Revan's ships would have a similar power output for ships of their size of Xizor's era.

Really? Your sure that a SSD wouldn't have that kind of power output? Because ISD's produce even GREATER amounts of power then a Venator.

The tech is only comparable in that it would be able to do damage to the other. Lets look at the rule again...

Technology level is universal (unless considered archaic or advanced at the time): blaster fire, armouring, lightsabers etc. are all the same regardless of period, all that matters is size, quantity and power.

Size, Quantity and Power, all 3 of which Xizor's ships outclass Revan's.